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Question What was Jasmines master plan (and other questions) ?

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by Sternbeeere, Jun 13, 2016.

  1. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Just watched season 4 and the Jasmine arc. I must say I liked the season, yet some question remained unanswered. 1. What did Jasmine really want, did she just wanted be worshiped by everyone on earth and maybe other dimensions or simply devour all humans on long scale, gain power and do something with those powers in other dimensions, which we do not know of? I do not think that she simply had an utilitarian type of ethics and wanted to bring peace without free will, considering her disregard for the insect-like demons she abandoned and which she called and experiment. 2. Why she wanted Angelus to be on her site? What did she need him for ? 3. How powerful was she really ? I think a lot of things she told were lies, since, if she really was so powerful she would not need Skip, Cordelia, Angelus, the Beast, Connor etc. to do what she wants. Yet, she was able to delate information about the Beast in one dimension and at least influence certain events. So I am kind of wondering, what the real extent of her powers were.
     
  2. Athena

    Athena Tweedledum Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I think Jasmine genuinely believed she was doing 'good', that by cleansing the world of hurt and pain, and being the focus of everyone's attention, she could bring about a new world. Jasmine's true intent was ambiguous, and she could be seen as both good and evil, depending on your point of view.

    I don't necessarily believe her being behind all the events in AtS. I think that's some spectacular retconning, but if we accept that she was telling the truth, that in essence she made certain things happen.... Cordelia receiving the visions from Doyle, Darla being brought back to life, Angel going through the trial for Darla's soul, Darla becoming revamped, Darla becoming pregnant, Connor's birth, Connor's kidnapping, Cordelia's ascension to the higher plain, Connor's return and Cordelia's return, and that she then planned for a possessed Cordelia to have sex with Connor (yuck!) to give birth to herself.... then I think we can say she is extremely powerful to be able to alter reality like that.
     
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  3. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    That's because she WAS genuinely doing good!
     
  4. Athena

    Athena Tweedledum Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    She was also devouring people..... ;)
     
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  5. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Small price to pay. They were volunteers.
     
  6. Athena

    Athena Tweedledum Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    But they were also brainwashed by Jasmine's influence, they didn't volunteer under their own free will.
     
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  7. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    I don't think it was really being brainwashed. Free will is a myth anyway, she just made the decisions more overt.
     
  8. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    It depends on the ethics you are into. From certain utillitarian points of view yes, she was doing good. Since she sacrificed as small mass of people so that a huge mass of people could live happily. But then, even thinking like that with Jasmine there are some limitations as far as her intentions go. At the end we see her sacrificing more and more people, while at the beginning there were only 3 of them. So that made me thinking if she was just gaining power for something bigger, maybe ruling the Powers that Be dimension. Additionally, we have seen her being very casual about that she ate people, it seemed to me that she did not really care about any kind of life or good or evil. Which again makes me question her intentions.
    It is actually a bit of debate between scientists, philosophers and other experts on whether it is myth or not. But regardless of that fact, she made the human mind work entirely different than it did before, which for me on long term might lead to problems. For example, they devoted all arts, religion, maybe science to Jasmine. That might lead to a stop of progress in society as a whole, and I doubt Jasmine would come up for that on long term. Also, as we see her powers progress, humans lost individuality, creativity, a lot of traits that made them what they are. In that case I question, if drug-like happiness is enough as an exchange for that.
    Apart from that, the way how humans behaved, indicated that for me that Jasmine might have wanted something else than simply doing good, maybe she was creating an army or wanted be the most worshiped being or something. Would also explain why Angel,( and maybe all others affected by Jasmine, ) were happy because they stopped questioning things and would do anything for Jasmine at all costs.
    correctly, I personally do see her as evil, despite of her efforts to stop war and famine, which is a good thing, specially with regards to war. For me happiness is only one value among many, and Jasmine takes many other important things, the chance to improve oneself, to grow as person included. Additionally, I do not believe that sacrificing one life for many is the key to goodness, but that is my personal opinion.
    I agree with you about her not being behind all events. But even the events she was behind might not indicate power. She had friends, like Skip who simply pursued Cordelia to ascend to the heaven dimension, that is not powerful just manipulative. She also simply manipulates Connor. But then her brainwashing works even with demons and is quite strong, so there must be a lot of power from that point of view.
     
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  9. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I have a lot of thoughts on this, and I'll try not to ramble too much.

    One, prophecies in the Buffyverse seem more like epic rituals to me, as opposed to predictions of what will come to pass. IOW, when the stars and other conditions are right, THEN actions can be taken to bring about all sorts of things...and Jasmine used one such prophecy to give herself form (that is, she cast an epic ritual that took human generations to finish, and also required some evil actions for which she wanted Angelus to help with, and perhaps also to make sure that the "vampire with a soul" that the prophecy spoke about couldn't interfere with her plans, as Angel ultimately did, though once Jasmine was limited to mortal form, she forgot that part, or was simply too reckless to end Angel with her seeming victory).

    Two, the mortals with souls were blissful and content...much as Buffy was in the higher realms (though not Cordelia, interesting enough).

    Three, many higher and lower beings valued souls for unknown reasons...I believe they (including the higher powers) fed off them (as Jasmine would do much more openly and quickly to retain her powers and continued growth--she was becoming something more all the time, her individual powers growing along with her growing power among mortals). This helps explain why the Old Ones and PTB went from battling each other to more of a "Cold War" mode, as otherwise they'd ruin the "soul farm" for everyone (which could mean they all wither and die). (I'll just add that it's POSSIBLE that "good and evil" were valuable to both, for they produced pleasant spiritual vibrations to respective powers, and with the presence of evil, then good had more to strive against and even sacrifice themselves over...Buffy's sacrifice in the Gift probably being especially sweet. I bet as the Higher Powers "eat souls," that they strive to do so not only slowly and pleasantly, but also to seduce the souls to "sacrifice themselves" for the Greater Good. I realize this is not a comforting thought.)

    There were wild cards that threatened the Cold War, such as Jasmine and Illyria, but even then these beings (hated by both sides) were not confronted directly...either out of a fear of escalation (and no doubt infinite patience incomprehensible to us short lived humans) and/or acting directly might make them too vulnerable to their enemies (to manifest is too much, as in the case of Glory and Illyria, and even acting from other planes no doubt takes power which weakens them after).

    I also believe that the difference between a PTB and Old One is that the PTB is much more conservative and careful in their use of soul power, while the Old One (and rogues like Jasmine who I believe was becoming an Old One by her changes) are "addicted" to the power, like the difference between Willow and Dark Willow. As Willow once asked Anya, "Is it like you're scared of losing that feeling again, and having it be okay to hurt people, and then you're not in charge of the power anymore, because it's in charge of you?" Hubris and addiction to the power is what makes the Powers into Old Ones, and it was also the fall of Jasmine.

    'Course this begs the question, are souls power? I believe they are represented that way in the Buffyverse, whether it's intentional or not. Souls can be turned into drugs that sell for a lot in Hell dimensions (there are books that explore this trade in souls in the Angelverse, and I believe Smile Time is about this, too), but also power. Jenoff, for example, bargained for souls, and I believe it only makes senses that Jenoff (that Gunn promised his soul to in exchange for his tricked out truck) would only exert his powers if he gained more in return. (That said, I wonder if each soul he consumed, which appeared to be very pleasurable to him, also gave him another life, that is for every soul he gained, he got one more life, which is why the episode Double or Nothing ended with Angel asking if others owed Jenoff so that he could be killed as many times as it took.) Jasmine also seemed to require souls to not only grow, but even just retain her power (and Glory is at least similar if not identical--interesting that Tara's sanity could be recalled from Glory, which I presume is because it wasn't "completely digested" yet). I'll spare you my speculations beyond that.

    And interesting enough, Jenoff feared losing Gunn's soul if Gunn fell too much in love with Fred. And Jasmine required people to love her.

    With this in mind, I believe Jasmine's end goal was to ultimately to devour many more souls (maybe all, or maybe just many more in a "stable farm") in a way she couldn't on the Bug World (thanks to modern sats and technology with world peace and worship facilitating it) which would end in an ascension to something even more powerful (something that would awe even Mayor Wilkins), to control even more worlds...'course the other powers (from the PTB to Senior Partners) would no doubt step in before long and the Earth she was on would probably be destroyed or turned into Jasmine's own dimension, with Jasmine (whether she intended to or not) transforming into an Old One (IOW, a PTB with an addiction problem + hubris, a godlike Dark Willow if you will).

    It's late, so I can only hope I made sense there.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 18, 2016 ---
    I thought I'd add that though Glory sucked sanity from others, she couldn't brain suck vampires...at least not vampires without a soul. (Would be interesting if she could brain suck vampires with a soul.)
     
    Sternbeeere: very interesting thoughts, thanks
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
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  10. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Yes, that is very interesting indeed, I wondered about that too. Either it is because to that point Cordelia is half-demon and reacts to a certain plane differently than someone who is purely human or it is because she went up somewhere else than to the real PTB realm.

    It is not, and it also indicates that the PTB are not truly good, since they merely see humans or other ensouled beings as food and act for selfish reasons. If that is true, for me it would mean that there is no true good Power in the Buffyverse so far. As far as my intuition goes and the logic a supernatural normally goes, it appears strange/unpleasant to me, but that is not mean, it is not true.

    Yes, it is also what I had in mind, regardless, of whether or not other PTB ate souls or not.

    My thought on this is that PTB and other higher beings need to eat souls only if they are on a plane not suitable to their true being. Like Glory needed to eat sanity in order to function on earth plane or Jasmine in order to exist. They possibly do not need to do so on their native plane and function self-sufficiently.

    I think souls and brain-life-force are slightly different and vampiric/demonic perception is generally different from that of a human,( as such that perception is useless to Glory in order to function in way humans do) and she would not be able to brainsuck ensouled vampires either, since what she can do is suck a certain way perception, which ensouled vampires still do not have.
     
  11. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I expect it's more complicated than mere soul eating, but I tried to avoid getting too far away from the show in my speculation. An alternative that would fit with the myths is that the Powers simply absorb part of us, but it's so slow that it doesn't consume our soul, though it takes our memories (much like the myths of Elysium and the various rivers and such that deprived the spirits of the dead memory of their mortal life as they remain ever so blissful, even some Christians believe that God will remove the memory of loved ones who didn't make it into Heaven), and eventually (after the impurities fade) our souls more "merge" (joining in) with the Higher Powers rather than being consumed in the traditional sense, or are reincarnated to start the process over.

    But I doubt their benevolence as they typically have an angle of some sort (and overlook a lot that isn't important to that), and I can't help but notice how both sides value sacrifice (either of self or of others).

    My vision of the Powers (be they good or evil) isn't that different from farming. Some farms are (from the typical human perspective) very humane, while others are as horrific as what the Master came up with in the Wishverse (with the "truly demonic concept" of mass production). But even so, animals are generally exploited in some sense, and often eaten, though they may be cared for so that they're happy up until that point. Most humans would not see that as evil (but the livestock would have a very different opinion of it if they were fully aware of what was going on), and if we're the cattle of higher powers, then absorbing those who have helped create our souls & cared for us (possibly for a thousand years or more in Heaven before fully eating us) might not see it as evil either. To the Powers, we are the lesser beings who are not worthy of the same consideration they give each other, though that doesn't mean they can't be humane toward us (at least until the very end).

    That aside...what was the most disturbing aspect of the Powers to me was how they (mis)handled Billy Blim. While truly a vile creature, was there a point in just torturing him for eternity? By point, I meant it achieved something other than punishment, as punishment itself is pointless if it can't make the cosmos better (or even serve to deter others from acting in such a way, which I don't see how it could when it's all so private and hush hush), and the best thing to do in such a case is just destroy him as quickly and expediently as possible. OTOH, if the flames were slowly consuming the evil impulses and power within him so that his soul could be saved (he might even seek redemption for his past as a creature of evil) then that would be a point. Even a security measure would have a point (that is, he continually tries to break out so that the flames flare up that prevents his escape from his mystical prison), though in this case I don't know why they don't just destroy him (which would prevent him from being freed again, as he was). But the way Skip worded it, my impression is that Billy was just being punished "just because." Which meant the Old Ones and Hell Gods weren't the only ones to use hellfire. I don't trust that.

    That's not to say I think Billy should've been saved (if anything, he should simply be destroyed so as to never become a problem again, and torturing him seems to me like torturing a rabid beast rather than putting it out of its misery), mind you, just that it shows the Powers in a negative light from my POV, one not too different from the hell gods. And to top it off, the keymasters had SO MANY keys (which presumably held other prisoners, Skip sure seemed jaded by his job as jailer which implies it was ordinary)...so many to torture, and so many horrors that could be released back onto Earth. Not good, and not wise, unless there's some important element I'm missing.
     
    Sternbeeere: Interesting again. I still wonder if there is a good power in the BTVS
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
  12. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Yet, some humans do, so likewise some PTB or more likely other Powers might be see that as evil.

    Yeah, would be. (By the way, Judaism and catholic Christianity have that view of flames as purification, but in BTVS nothing hints at that)

    With Skip everything is a bit complex and you do not know if he lies or if he says the truth since he is a friend of Jasmine