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Why didn't the monks just destroy the key?

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by Purplemess317, Feb 2, 2017.

  1. Purplemess317

    Purplemess317 Townie

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    Okay maybe this is me just being way to logical for a television series but why didn't they?
    It seems that dawn (the key) only purpose was to open a portal to several hell dimensions that's it right? Unless I'm missing something. So something that dangerous that could put the entire world at risk why not just destroy it... Instead of making it human and demanding the slayer to keep it from glory..
     
  2. Last Watcher

    Last Watcher Tweed Icon

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    Sineya
    They said 'The key' was a ball of energy, before the monks did their Dawnieforming on it....
    Now energy cannot be created or destroyed.....so I guess by the laws of physics they couldn't destroy it....just change it into something else.....
     
  3. Purplemess317

    Purplemess317 Townie

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    Right but even still why not transform it into something that can be destroyed..... I guess I'm thinking wayyy to much into this, but if that was its only purpose something like that shouldn't be allowed to exist...
     
  4. Last Watcher

    Last Watcher Tweed Icon

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    Sineya
    Yeah It is a bit dangerous to be left wandering about.....
    Think we discussed in another thread that Dawn could possibly age & die.....so I guess they could have formed the key into something living & then just killed it.....
    I don't know, changed it into a chicken & had it for Sunday roast or something......

    Tis possible I guess....wouldn't have made as good a story though ;)
     
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  5. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Because if they'd done the logical thing, there wouldn't be a season 5.
     
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  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Maybe the monks believed that destroying the Key wasn't just the instrument that would tear down the dimensional barriers, but was also the force that preserved those barriers as well. In other words, the Key wasn't just a tool for opening figurative doors, it actually is the door. Destroy it, and you destroy the door. (That would also explain Buffy's obsession with keeping Dawn alive, even it in doing so, she doomed the world. The monks were willing to die to protect the Key, so the spell that they cast included giving Buffy that same conviction)
     
  7. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    From "Spiral", this exchange happens between Gregor and Buffy:

    BUFFY
    Why didn't they destroy it? If the
    Key's as dangerous as you --


    GREGOR
    Because they were fools! They thought
    they could harness its power for the
    forces of light. They failed -- and
    paid with their blood.

    The monks didn't destroy the key because they wanted to use it, perhaps to bring enlightened beings from better realms or to travel to better places. The key is otherwise described as being indiscriminate, merging all dimensions, so maybe they would want to do some further refining of their spells.
     
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  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Frankly I never understood why they couldn't deal with Glory themselves. If these monks have so much power that they can literally change reality, opening a portal and dropping a God in it should have been a walk in the park for them. But then again maybe it's just because that for all their power, they are insanely stupid. If you can only work a ritual via blood sacrifice, why on earth would even turn the key into something that bleeds to begin with?
     
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  9. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Maybe there's a prophecy where The Key will one day save the world. Or something.
    Or how about 'the Key is a force in the universe, neither good or evil and therefore against their strict monk-y code to kill' :)

    Note monk-y code, not monkey code. There's a difference, as any monkey will tell you.
     
  10. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    You know monkeys that talk?:eek: Where can I find those? I've always wanted to chat with them.
     
  11. Riderofapocalypse

    Riderofapocalypse Potential

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    Maybe they couldn't? Having raw energy strong enough to open portals through dimensions, i would think, would be virtually indestructible. Maybe think of Dawn's energy form like the Infinity stones from the Marvel Cinematic Universe?
     
  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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  13. Taaroko

    Taaroko Gunner of the USS Buffy/Angel

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    I've been thinking about this particular plot hole a lot today, and I'm not sure there's a good way around it with the story as it is. That Glory's entire motivation is to go back to her home dimension is stupid, because the Scoobies probably could've helped her make a non-multiverse-destroying portal and sent her on her way. For Glory to work, the threat she poses *has* to feel inevitable, which it does not when there's such a simple and obvious alternative method of getting what she wants. They never even suggest in canon that the Key was her only possible way home. They could have, I suppose, but I still think it would've felt contrived. It also makes no sense for the Key to be this highly sought-after object of legend if it's only useful at one specific time and place. What did everyone think it was for during all those aeons when it did nothing but be glowy and green? How did anyone even know what it was really for if it didn't work yet? That's stupid. And who in their right mind would manufacture an interdimensional key that destroys the entire multiverse when used? That benefits nobody. Either the Key needs to have always worked (but the portal is still dangerous because hellbeasts can get out), or Dawn needed to be a better MacGuffin than the Key. So to fix these problems, Glory needs a different motivation and Dawn needs to be something besides the Key that Glory still wants.

    Now, what if Glory was kind of a play on the Triple Goddess (Maiden/Mother/Crone) idea from Celtic mythology instead of some random hell god from a random dimension? She's this evil god who tried to destroy the world or something, but an order of powerful monks stopped her by splitting her into three separate entities. Dawn is one of those entities (the Maiden). In order to regain her true power, Glory (the Mother), the piece that contains the evil god's original hostile personality and desires, has to assimilate the other two. The monks trapped her inside the body of a human male to try to prevent her from doing this. At the beginning of the season, Glory would have worked her way through Ben's subconscious. The third entity, the Crone (whose name is something with "sunset" connotations), is in the form of an older woman, and she's the only one with the memories of what they were before the monks split them into three. The Crone finds Ben and tries to destroy him so that they can never return to that state, but Glory overpowers both Ben and the Crone and successfully assimilates her. Now that she's got two of the three, she's much stronger, and all she has to do is find assimilate Dawn before she can carry out her original evil plans. Dawn, however, is her own person now, like the Crone was. She's a human kid, and she's a Summers. When she learns what she really is, she doesn't want to go back, and Buffy will protect her no matter what it takes.

    With these alterations to the setup, the season could still have played out in much the same way as it did in canon, but it would've made sense and felt less contrived. A few episodes to establish Dawn and to figure out exactly what she is, a few episodes of Glory trying to track her down and being thwarted. Possibly in her efforts to find Dawn, she murders/brainsucks a bunch of girls she thinks fit the profile. The Knights of Byzantium would make way more sense. Their logic is that murdering the Maiden is the simplest way of preventing Glory from regaining full power. Obviously Buffy won't let them do that, and it still wouldn't stop Glory from wreaking havoc at 2/3 strength anyway. In the end, Glory discovers Dawn and sets up this big ritual to assimilate her. Dawn is ready to die to stop Glory from taking over, but Buffy and the Scoobies show up to stop it. Maybe Buffy shoves Dawn out of the way just when the ritual is about to complete and takes her place. Because Buffy and Dawn share blood, Buffy is technically compatible with the ritual, which fuses Buffy with Glory instead. Then there's an internal showdown inside the shared mindscape of Buffy, Glory, Ben, and the Crone. Ben is already dying, but Buffy defeats Glory, possibly with the Crone's help. They might end up split back into four separate bodies, all mortally wounded or already dead, and Dawn is safe.

    Toth's ferula gemina rod in "The Replacement" could've been more integral to the story, too. Maybe Ben could've tried to use it to free himself of Glory, only to inadvertently make her that much more powerful once separate from him. Or maybe the Scoobies could've used it on Glory to weaken her by splitting the Crone off again. Maybe they just use it to slow the ritual down. Lots of possibilities there.

    It also makes me really happy that the "sun" motif would work so well with this idea. Dawn, Sunnydale, Summers. Glory isn't too much of a stretch for "midday," either. It'd be a cool reversal to have a villain with sun-like powers when the show's main monsters can't abide sunlight.

    So yeah...that's my wild alternative mythology for S5. Make of it what you will. (As for me, I might see about making either fanfiction or original fiction with it.)
     
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  14. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Well, not talk but communicate. Monkeys can be trained to use sign language and tell you stuff. :)
     
  15. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Is it difficult or time-consuming?

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    Black Thorn
    It wasn't destroyed because the monks couldn't find a pawn shop. If they HAD found one....off to the pub:

    "Serving wench! More ale! And a round for our new friend, Olaf. What's that? Your establishment doesn't offer plump babies for snacks?!"
     
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  16. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    This only works if Glory did not want to commit evil. Her motivation for going home was to do evil on her own world. Are we saying we don't care about the death and destruction of 'others' if it does not effect us? Well, we might, but not sure Buffy would. Plus if they send Glory back, who's to say she may not think it's a good idea in the future to return to this dimension and destroy it?
     
  17. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Because you don't mess around with timelines and such. That's why they send Vamp!Willow back to her own dimension instead of killing her. Well it was one of the reasons anyway. These people/beings who don't belong in the dimension Buffy & Co. live in shouldn't be there. Whether it's good or bad if you send them back to their world doesn't matter. That's where they belong because that's where they should affect things, not on Buffy's plane. Because if it wasn't for Glory, who doesn't belong on Buffy's plane, Buffy wouldn't have died. Whether Glory kills millions in her world doesn't matter because that's how it should be to begin with.

    Take any person in our world that started a war, drop them into another world so that war doesn't start here, and our world takes a different path. The same is true the other way, if someone not from our world got here and started a war we also take a different path. But that is one we were never supposed to take in the first place because that person doesn't belong in our world.
     
  18. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    The sent Vamp Willow back becasue WillowWillow asked them not to kill her and to give her a chance. No one was asking for Glory to be given a chance. Glory was evil incarnate, they knew her history in her own dimension and I don't think Buffy would have been able to live with sending her back, knowing she might have casued the death/suffering of countelss others. It's different if you don't actually know who Glory is or what she'd previously done.

    Maybe the reason the person came here and started a war was exactly to change our path. Without this war, maybe a worse war would have happened? To be honest I don't actually believe that 'everything happens for a reason', I'm more of a believer that anything can happen to anyone at anytime and the world is in a state of permanant chaos, but I could be wrong :)
     
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  19. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    My professor of linguistics will literally kill you if you claim monkeys know sign language :p
    I think that was a metaphor for Willow accepting her darker side. At the start of the episode, Willow is struggling with how repressed and conscientious she is. I think a part of her enjoys seeing her inner id set lose in her vampire doppelgänger. The show sometimes struggles with what makes symbolic sense and what makes real life sense.
     
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  20. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Willow asked them to yes, but I remember they also used the argument of her being from that other world (unless I remember that wrong). But in the case of Glory, wasn't Glory kicked out of her dimension by more powerful Gods than her? Sending her back there wouldn't even be an issue then, as there would be Gods in place to take care of her. And even if not, if no one on Buffy's plane had managed to stop Glory, all the multiverse would have been destroyed. It would have been far better for the monks to use their insane powers to open a portal to Glory's home and send her back there.

    We know why they come to Buffy's plane. Of course it's to change things. Usually to make it better for them, not us. W&H is the best example of that. But the Butterfly Effect is always there when such things are done.