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Willow: Self-entitled and quietly hostile?

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by Anyanka Bunny Killer, Sep 26, 2016.

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  1. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    You mean the spell she didn't, you know, cast? How horrible of her!

    Nice of you to omit the part where Willow refused while Anya accepted. Not once but twice even.

    Anya murders thousands upon thousands of people but Willow is far more dangerous. Sounds legit.

    No, seriously. As much I personally might think it was grossly OOC, Willow did screw up spectacularly in S6 but even then eventually she saw reason. There wasn't anyone who could have forced her to stop wiping out people's memories in the first half of the season or to stop killing people in the second half yes she did stop. Compare and contrast with Anya whose powers were taken away by force and who then tried to get them back, causing the deaths of innocent people in the process - and, of course, she did it for the purpose of ruining even more lives.
     
    Anyanka Bunny Killer: Why do you KEEP coming back just to make negative comments about others' opinions? Pretty immature.
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  2. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I think a similarity Anya and Willow share is that they both treat Spike somewhat decently. Anya obviously got on better with him because they have things in common whilst Willow still helped him despite him scaring the crap out of her in Lover's Walk in season 3.

    Willow has great capacity to be forgiving. Anya a little less so but she's been a vengeance demon for 1000 years so that part of her nature isn't going to disappear overnight, likewise with Spike, Sometimes the scoobies didn't give him credit when it was due eg Buffy berates him for wanting credit for not feeding on "bleeding disaster victims" but what she failed to recognise was that Spike was probably actually fighting his vampiric nature to go for it. The smell of that blood in the room must've been driving his senses wild. Similar with Anya, she's trying to grasp human concepts after a millennium of being non-human, and sometimes she can be overly blunt, but she's still trying her hardest and sometimes that doesn't get recognised either.

    Willow does have some scenes where she can come across as "self-entitled" but overall I don't think she is. I also wouldn't say she's "hostile" in any way. She gets defensive at times when she gets criticised especially when she feels its undeserved, but she doesn't walk around with a chip on her shoulder or even a cynical view of the world.
     
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  3. DoktorRock

    DoktorRock Potential

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    And yet, Willow *didn't* curse Oz and Veruca. Don't condemn characters for things they haven't done. She couldn't do it and stopped herself because she loved Oz. Unless Anya didn't love Olaf to begin with, which is unreasonable given what we saw in Selfless, Anya condemned Olaf *despite* her love of him. I'm not saying Willow's behavior in Wild At Hearts isn't concerning, she clearly has difficulties of controlling her emotions, *has* a vengeful streak, and falsely took Buffy's advice ("Put the blame where it belongs.") as a literal call to action to turn her self-hate external.

    Willow's revenge spell was on impulse, under stress, and within a short timespan. She stopped herself. Anya's plan was well-planned and calmly executed.

    D'Hoffryn offered Willow the job because of the Thy Will Be Done spell that didn't have a vengeful aspect in it whatsoever. It was a careless attempt at self-medication after her other attempts (faking OKness, alcohol) didn't work or caused disgust, judgment, and impatience from her friends. "Make the pain go away so I'm not such a downer to my friends anymore" was the literal intent. D'Hoffryn was just impressed with the unintended, yet creative, outcome and saw a chance in approaching her because he saw how Buffy/Xander/Giles wronged Willow in Something Blue.

    D'Hoffryn offered Anya the job in bright daylight on Earth in a non-threatening environment and spoke calmly and friendly to her. Anya accepted.

    D'Hoffryn forced Willow against her will to his dark demon realm with no apparent way out and menacing figures covered in hoods surrounding her. He talked in a booming, threatening voice. As soon as she saw what she had caused and heard what he had to offer, she immediately declined and wanted back to her friends for helping them and undoing the spell. No stalling, no evasiveness, no "Can I think about it? I need my toothbrush if I'm staying here."

    Willow was ashamed and remorseful for her atrocities as Dark Willow (except Warren, arguably). Anya never showed any for her stunt with Olaf, 1000 years of murder and mayhem, trying to get Willow killed, trying to get Xander cursed/killed or effectively killing Buffy/Angel/Cordelia/Willow/Xander in The Wish. She genuinely showed remorse for the bloodbath in Selfless.

    So? Buffy and Faith's slayer powers are a potential threat to everyone. Angel and Spike's inherent bloodlust, souled or unsouled, is a potential threat to everyone. The Watcher's Council political power is a potential threat to everyone. Oz's alter ego is a threat to everyone. The average human with a gun is a threat to everyone. The Magic Box is a threat since customers can buy without getting checked for intents and dangerous items are lying around with little or no security system. Guess who's responsible for the Magic Box.

    What do you advocate? Locking her up and putting a chip into her head? Other precautionary "measures"?

    Maybe, because she became pretty damn indispensable, to the point that Giles ordered spells like I'd order a pizza? Everyone would be dead without Willow's magic.

    You're confusing making negative comments about your opinion, with actually refuting and debating your arguments. This is a discussion board. You don't want to discuss or others to respond to your opinion? Don't open threads then. You just want to bash characters what thread title and your content implies? I suggest making an own blog like on LiveJournal. The chance that you get any responses there, is approximately zero.

    I hope it's not too much text for you. ;)
     
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  4. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Jotunheim

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    Black Thorn
    @DoktorRock

    You and your alt account aren't "discussing" anything. You're trolling. And I didn't join this site for that crap. It's disappointing that you've chosen this thread for your attention-seeking antics. And since you KEEP coming back to bait people, this thread no longer serves a purpose.
     
    DoktorRock: Lol. Whatever dude... This thread was pointless from the beginning, obviously.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
  5. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    You are the one who is calling other posters "immature" or "trolls", making snide remarks like "You've seen the show, right?" and keeps on commenting on the posters instead on their arguments. You are also not the one who gets to decide if a thread serves a purpose or not.

    Exactly.

    Back to the topic. Saying Willow must be evil because D'Hoffryn tried to recruit her is like saying that Angel with a soul must be evil because any number of villains have tried to convince him to switch sides - Spike, Dru, Wolfram and Hart, etc. And sure, sometimes he succumbs to the dark side and should be criticised for that. But being approached by the bad guys in an attempt to convince him to join their ranks means very little in itself. Ampata tried to convince Xander that sucking the life out of people is no big deal, I guess he must be evil too then.
     
  6. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Not "must be" but has the propensity towards. The soul, just like the chip, is nothing but a muzzle. Angel is a vampire, by his very nature he's evil. The soul was nothing but a placebo for his mind to accept holding his id at bay. It was just smoke and mirrors; he wanted to be good so he was good. The soul was just an excuse to be good; just as Buffy's "love" was an excuse for Spike to be good.

    In the Buffyverse the soul meant nothing, it and it's function changed to will.
     
  7. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    I don't view the soul as an excuse to be good - it gives Angel (or anyone else with a soul) the capacity to be good. Whether he decides to actually do good or not is up to him.
     
  8. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    But it was used as his excuse- he did not need the soul to do good. Just as Willow's rage was an excuse to be evil. Nothing was ever done in the Buffyverse without some grand gesture to show how the people changed.
     
  9. nightshade

    nightshade Watcher Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Let's keep the insults out of the discussion.
     
  10. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I think this throws up an interesting point. You say Angel is evil because of his vampiric nature but that he wanted to be good (debateable because of Angelus' behaviour) yet if that's the case, doesn't that kind of mean that ALL vampires are capable of good if given the right motivation?

    Also were vampires actually evil? They preyed on humans because that's their natural food source but it's no different really than a lion preying on a zebra. Whether you think it's evil or not all depends on if you're the lion or the zebra.

    Aside from the few vampires (The Master, Angelus, Spike and Dru with the Judge) that kind of wanted to destroy the world, how many vampires did Buffy kill that were just living in Sunnydale and minding their own business, only to be caught whilst having a meal because they needed to feed to survive?

    The soul mythology in the Buffyverse isn't clear at all especially regarding what being souled means vs not being soul. This was discussed in the "Angel, the gypsy curse and Angelus" thread.
     
  11. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    According to Joss everyone- human, vampire, demon - are capable of either good or evil. So yes, ALL vampires are capable of good if given the right motivation.

    Vampires are evil because they are demons living inside of a dead person's body reanimating them. They are evil because they have higher reasoning - something a lion does not have - yet they still opt to (in the least) feed off of humans.

    That has been my point for decades. The minute they rehabilitated Spike it turned Buffy into nothing more than a speciest killer as any of the vampires she killed could have been rehabilitated, yet in her bigotry she murdered them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
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  12. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    It is different. Lions don't usually kill just for the pleasure of the kill. Nor do they usually torture the zebras. Some animals do it (like say, domestic cats who cute and adorable and monstrous :)) but most don't. Vampires can easily survive without killing anyone. They very much enjoy murder, rape and torture. The relish it, even. Animals generally kill only to survive.

    Of course, whenever it's convenient for the plot (ugh, Spike, ugh, vamp hos) these rules suddenly become not so rigid but this is what happens when you think a story bibles are useless and continuity in regards to worldbuilding is for losers.
     
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  13. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    This is a very good point.

    I disagree. Vampires have to feed to survive, at the very least they have to kill something for its blood. Animal blood doesn't sustain them as much as a human's does. Also if they were to buy blood from the butchers, they'd need money which would most likely involve mugging people for cash. They may as well just cut out the middleman.
     
  14. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    Sure, killing people makes things somewhat easier (if the police is dumb as the Sunnydale police, that is) but that's not really the point. Vampires can survive perfectly well without killing anyone. They aren't like say Ampata the Mummy Girl who had no choice but to kill if she wanted to survive or Ford who had to become a vampire or face an early, painful demise. Stealing from blood banks should be trivially easy when you have super strength and is no way riskier than murdering people, so even the convenience excuse is rather iffy.
     
  15. Athena

    Athena Tweedledum Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Can we keep this thread on topic please? Feel free to start another thread for your killing of vampires discussions.
     
  16. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    But blood banks and butchers are relatively recent things, vampire nature can't be undone overnight, it'll take time.


    Back on topic, I don't think we've ever seen Willow being hostile. Upset, angry, defensive but never hostile.
     
  17. Athena

    Athena Tweedledum Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Closed, by request of the thread starter.
     
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