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Would it be better for Buffy if Dawn disappeared?

Discussion in 'Season 9' started by Buffy Summers, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Do you think Dawn is a weakness for Buffy that she would be better of without? Would it make her a better Slayer if she didn't have Dawn. Even with this whole Nash/Pearl thing, Buffy made saving Dawn her priority over saving the world.

    :)
     
  2. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

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    Black Thorn
    Yeah I think if Dawn disappeared Buffy would be more focused as a Slayer, focus on the mission rather then life.

    It might actually be good if she did disappear and used it as a way to realign Buffy and Xander to the fight, but I think it would be kinda a boring story for them trying to get Dawn back.
     
  3. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    We've seen what happens to Buffy when she loses Dawn - she goes catatonic.

    And I honestly don't think that's changed.

    Buffy might talk a big game, about how she would sacrifice Dawn now if she needed to, but I think it's just talk. Dawn is the only family Buffy has, and I think it would honestly destroy her if Dawn died.

    If it happened, I think Buffy would drive herself into the ground trying to get her back, or she'd just fall apart. I haven't seen anything that would make me believe that she'd be able to pick herself up and move on if Dawn died.
     
  4. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Except that in this case she wouldn't know that she had lost her.
     
  5. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    This is what happens when you haven't read S9 since 'Guarded', lol.

    In this case...no, I still don't think she'd be okay or more focused. I think Buffy needs that familial connection. I don't want to see a repeat of 'The Wish'. We touched on this in the thread about Buffy being considered different because she has friends and family, and the general consensus was that Buffy fights better, harder, fights to live, because of the people in her life, because of Dawn and Joyce and Giles and Willow and Xander. And if she lost Dawn, right now, she wouldn't really have anyone, would she? Xander and Willow are hardly as close to Buffy as they once were and she's already lost Joyce and Giles. Angel and Spike aren't even on her radar right now.

    I really do think she would end up like we saw in 'The Wish' and she ended up getting herself killed.
     
    Sternbeeere likes this.
  6. The Chosen

    The Chosen Time is all around

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    Sineya
    Yeah, I agree with [MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION].

    Dawn's really all Buffy has left. I haven't read past whatever arc before Guarded, but I've been keeping up, and it still doesn't seem like the bond the Scoobies once had is even a shadow of what it was before. Buffy needs ties to the world, real ones. She needs a connection.

    If Buffy lost her and knew it, she'd be screwed. If Buffy loses her and doesn't know it, she's still screwed. The reason Buffy's such an effective Slayer is because she has people she cares about, people she wants to come home to. That's gone without Dawn.
     
    Lyri:
  7. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

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    Sineya
    I think in the story that we have at the minute it probably should happen, but as far as Buffy goes, no, I don't think it is what is best for her. Buffy loves her sister and she needs those ties. Even if everything is messed up, Buffy would never view the loss of her sister as what is best for her. Having ties to people is what keeps Buffy going.

    I wouldn't miss Dawn, but it would be a huge loss to Buffy.
     
    Lyri:
  8. AndrewCrossett

    AndrewCrossett Satsu Otaku

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    Sineya
    No, I think Buffy needs Dawn.

    Dawn is the only family connection Buffy has left, and is her symbol of Caring About the Little Guy... even more purely so considering she barely remembers Dawn now, and is trying to save her on principle rather than just out of sentiment or fear of personal loss.

    As long as she is willing to go to such lengths to save one person, she is less likely to fall into the moral trap of strict utilitarianism... i.e., if you kill 99 to save 100 you've done a good thing. That's what derailed Angel/Twilight and is now derailing Whistler in the Angel & Faith book.

    Buffy's actions to save Dawn indicate that she realizes human lives are not just numbers in some cold math equation.
     
  9. VaderSpike24

    VaderSpike24 Potential

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    "Buffy made saving Dawn her priority over saving the world." -BUFFY SUMMERS' original statement.

    That is the perfect summary for Season Five.

    If Dawn was wiped from existance, and nobody remembers her, Buffy and everybody else wouldn't be hurt, because they wouldn't even know that something/one was taken away that shouldn't have/wasn't there originally anyway. So, in the long run, yes, Buffy is better off without Dawn, I think. Or at the very least, it wouldn't hurt.
     
  10. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Not necessarily. Apparently, if Dawn were to simply fade out of existence, pretty much the same way that she faded INTO existence, nobody, Buffy included (though she might be the last one to forget, since Dawn is literally a part of her) would retain any memory of her ever being there.

    Now, if she got hit by a truck, drained by a vampire, or Buffy someday had to actually sacrifice her, that MIGHT be a different story, but, again, we don't really know for sure. Maybe any way that Dawn dies or fades away automatically erases all knowledge and evidence that she was ever here.
     
  11. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    I think there is an interesting parallel between Dawn's existence and Johnathan in "Superstar 4ABB17". When Johnathan's spell was broken, his period of superstardom was gradually forgotten over a few days by everyone including Johnathan himself, even if people were mad at him for a while. I think the same thing would happen with Dawn if she had been sacrificed with Buffy (and maybe Tara?) being the last to remember her.
     
  12. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    Hmm...you know, I have never thought of it from that angle before. I suppose largely because Jonathon's spell was SO obviously fictional that it was hard to really consider it "real", but really, when you think about it, it does have some pretty striking similarities to what the monks conjured up with Dawn. Dawn's existence has just been more seamlessly integrated (which makes sense. Jonathon shouldn't be a master wizard).

    Now that would be an interesting story arc to explore.
     
  13. Zeppelin92

    Zeppelin92 Potential

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    The thing is, we don't know the long-term effects of what would have happened if Dawn had completely vanished. What would be remembered? If Dawn never existed then Glory would never have opened that portal and Buffy wouldn't have had to sacrifice herself. So does that mean she would no longer have any memory of having been dead? Would she have any memory of having been depressed in season 6, if she had no memory of having been to Heaven? I feel as though the loss of the memory of Dawn would cause a massive haziness in crucial events in the past of the series. Would it even be possible to entirely forget Dawn was ever there?

    I think it goes beyond just forgetting Dawn in that moment, it could really change all of our main characters who ever interacted with her. Not necessarily for the better, either.
     
  14. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Not necessarily. Buffy could have just remembered that she had died in order to close the portal that Glory opened into all of the hell dimensions, something like when she had to do the same thing in Season 2, only this time she had to do it herself.

    For that matter, they entire could have made Buffy think that everything that happened in Season 5 was just a very vivid bad dream, the way that they did with the entire season that Bobby Ewing was dead on "Dallas," or the way that the entire series "St Elsewhere" presented in its final episode that everything had been just the dream of an autistic child. It's cheating in the highest degree, I know, but it wouldn't be the first time that some series has shouted "Make over!"
     
  15. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Going of the episode where Spike explains to Buffy how having family and friends is the reason Buffy has delayed her deathwish, and the support for this argument that is evident in season 6/part of season 7, then I'd say Buffy would be dead, at some point she'd have not gone the extra mile in a fight and been killed. Dawn gives Buffy a constant, yes she has her friends, but those relationships are contingent, and have been shown to have their weak points at times. I think that if Buffy didn't have Dawn, then she'd give in, or not have enough drive in one of her fights, during a low point in her friendships, and lose i.e. die.

    So no I think Buffy needs her familial connections, you can choose your friends but not your family, and similarly you can't escape familial obligation: Buffy will keep fighting for Dawn, they're all the other has.
     
  16. ladydorotea

    ladydorotea Scooby

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    Personally, I think Buffy having 'a death wish' talk was just one of the soulless Spike many BS's aimed at making Buffy feel more fragile and alone so he could get a go at her. (This tactic did not work in S5.) There is no support for 'this argument' - of Buffy, or any other Slayer having a death wish that is - in either of the following seasons. Spike's obsession with hunting and 'conquering' Slayers has nothing to do with Slayers having a death wish, but everything with him having an excuse to indulge in that hunt - not that he needs one when soulless.

    Having said that however, I agree that Dawn disappearing would be a disaster for Buffy, and it might destroy her altogether. Buffy lost her stable family life when she was way to young for that not to leave a would deep enough to never heal. Losing the love of her life, then her mother, did not help either. She is at the stage of her life when young people drift apart and away from their childhood friends, and move on to finding adulthood. Somehow with Buffy it just never happens, but it does not mean it will not happen *eventually*. And this is a stage in one's life, having a link to one's family, and one's childhood memories is the most crucial for building a healthy adult life. Dawn is that link.
     
  17. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Season 5 supports the view entirely: when Buffy goes catatonic, she gives up, because she has lost the thing she's fighting for, and then she dies happy, not over the moon happy, but she doesn't seem to distressed at the prospect.

    I completely get the death wish thing, a slayers life is fraught with pain and death, and the only way that stops is when she dies, it might not exactly be a conscious death wish, but I think it definitely isn't the figment of Spikes imagination.
     
  18. TotallySpiked

    TotallySpiked Slaying

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    Black Thorn
    Buffy did fine before the arrival of Dawn. Yes, she still had Joyce at this point in time, but if Dawn had never existed and Joyce had died, Buffy would mourn yes but she would, in the end, be okay.
    If Dawn died, Buffy would be devastated but I think by this point, Buffy knows that life must go on and she would still be okay. Obviously it would take it's toll on her, but she would live day by day. Buffy, as much as she values the lives of her family and friends has drawn on the strength that being a Slayer has given her.
    Season 5 was Buffy at breaking point; hardest opponent to come up against, Joyce dying, Riley leaving and the possibility of losing her sister. No wonder Buffy went catatonic. Some people say that Buffy gave up, but ultimately Buffy gave her younger sister the opportunity to live a full life. Buffy understands her life as the slayer generally would be a shorter one.
     
  19. ladydorotea

    ladydorotea Scooby

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    Neither of the active Slayers we have had a chance to see 'on screen' ever had a death wish. Nikki did not have a death wish - she had a young child and her 'mission'. Young Chinese Slayer did not have a death wish, she had her parents - at least her mother whom she visibly loved very much - and she did not want to die. Kendra did not have a death wish. She was perhaps too innocent and shy, but never disenchanted with life. Faith never had a death wish until she went all the way under - to the dark side and back. And she lost it the moment she got help, and support, and hope. Heck, even Dana did not have a death wish, despite all the torment she was put through. Which leads me to believe that Slayer-specific 'death wish' was entirely soulless Spike's invention; a product of his intrinsic misogyny, coupled with vampiric torture-porn-death-fetish. ( I refer you to his admission of 'what is better than killing a Slayer', and his conversations with Dawn about a certain coal-bin resident.) So nyeah-ah. Buffy did not jump to her death to scratch a death-wish itch. She did it to save her sister. If she saw any other way of saving Dawn ( and the world) but sacrificing herself at that particular moment - I bet she would have taken it.
     
  20. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Obviously, that's not the point though, it's a subconscious death wish, anyone would have it, as I said slayers lives are fraught with pain and torment, and that only ends when they died. I don't think anyone could live with that without having a desire, on some level, for the pain and torment to end?

    Buffy admits that she wanted to 'quit' in season 5: that's basically the same sentiment, she might not want to die per se, but she didn't want to continue with the pain and torment of her life if Dawn wasn't in the picture..

    I don't think we're given any thing to suggest that slayers are happy with their lot in life, in fact, we see the complete opposite.

    Dana and the other slayers don't really count, they don't have the weight of the world on their shoulders like every other slayer who preceded them.