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Would you have forgiven Wesley?

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Ripper666, May 7, 2012.

  1. Ripper666

    Ripper666 Home sweet virtual home!

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    Just imagine you're in the situation of Angel. Wesley kiddnapped your son and then you lost him in a hell dimension. Would you be able to forgive? Or would the hate burn you?
     
  2. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I think that, considering Angel's habit of meddling in other people's lives whenever he thought that the situation required it, without ever so much as discussing it with them, his reaction to what Wesley had done, believing that he was saving, not only Connor, but also Angel, himself, having to suffer the grief of knowing that he had killed his own son, this episode points out one definite flaw in Angel's character'.

    He can dish it out, but he can't take it.

    Wesley was just as sincere in his belief that he was doing the right thing as Angel, himself, had been, when he stole Buffy's day of happiness in "I Will Remember You."
     
    slayer6: kids make it a new ballgame
  3. Gum Gnome33

    Gum Gnome33 "Well, yeah..."

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    Sineya
    On one hand, I agree with [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] that Angel himself was guilty of similarly flawed lapses in judgment for the sake of protecting others and that perhaps his reaction toward Wesley was fundamentally hypocritical.

    However, I can't blame him for reacting the way he did considering the specific consequences of Wesley's actions. Sure, objectively, we can see why forgiveness could have come quicker. But considering he'd lost his son forever, (as the thought at the time--and in a way still true), I don't fault him for reacting how he did. If anything, I might have expected his reaction to be more severe. Again, though he might have been guilty of a similar misstep, he was only--er--vampire after all. I think I might even go as far as to say that it's a credit to Angel's character that he does finally forgive Wesley.

    In any case this is a really classically "tragic" arc that the characters find themselves in. It happens all of the time in literature. One character tries to act in the best interest of another and there are disastrous consequences, only to be made worse when the character who was meant to be protected by the first now refuses to associate with him.
     
  4. brinkster130

    brinkster130 Riley's BFF Staff Member

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    Sineya
    It would be very very hard to get past, let alone to forgive someone who took away your chance to raise your own child. While I would be able to acknowledge that the person had good intentions it would never change the fact that my child was stolen from me and there is nothing that can be said or done to get back what was lost. I think anyone in Angel's situation would live the rest of their lives with some level of headache and sadness.

    The fact that Angel did eventually forgive Wesley is huge.
     
  5. david4wt

    david4wt We take what we can get.

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    I don't know, I don't have children but I agree with brinkster: "The fact that Angel did eventually forgive Wesley is huge." Maybe unnatural I would add.
     
  6. Aloverssoulz

    Aloverssoulz Potential

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    I'd give him a high five, a raise, make him employee of the month and put the picture of him on Cordy and Gunns desk with an inspirational quote underneath. No changing diapers and skipping right to the end of the rebellious teenage years? HELL YEAH!

    Seriously though, i'm not a parent and have little interest in ever being one so I can't say how i'd feel because I don't know how it feels to be a parent.
     
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  7. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

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    Sineya
    I like to think I have the capacity to forgive almost anything, to empathise with a person's motivation, but I honestly do not know if I could find that within myself if someone had taken my child, resulting in them being gone forever. His baby was taken to a Hell dimension. I just... I don't know how you make peace with that or the person responsible.

    And the thing that really gets me about this specific situation is that if Wesley had actually come to Angel with his concerns, most likely, Angel would have allowed Connor be taken somewhere safe. If Angel thought he was truly a threat to his child, he would have made sure Connor was removed from that threat, regardless of the personal cost to himself.
     
  8. Angel6

    Angel6 Townie

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    I think realistically although he could eventually understand he could never fully forgive and they would never be close again. So i agree its a huge deal that Angel did.
     
  9. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Short answer: No.

    Long answer; I would like to think that I could move on and offer forgiveness for most things but honestly, if someone took my child, no matter how well-intentioned, and that child was lost to me... I don't think the term 'seeing-red' suffices to cover it.
    I'm sorry, but for Wesley to get back into my 'good graces' I think I would need a lot of time to think it over... a couple of centuries give or take...
     
  10. ashleigh

    ashleigh Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I think if I was in that situation, I would hate myself for being unable to forgive rather than hating the 'kidnapper'.

    I don't blame Angel for 'hating' Wesley though. He could have handled things differently. For one he could have let other people know about the prophecy e.g. fred, lorne, cordy, gunn and then avoided being ostracized by them. Or maybe as [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]e said, he could have just told Angel about the 'prophecy.' Really his deserved what he got and in my opinion he became stronger for it anyway.

    This is kind of irrelevant, but I understand Angel's anger at Wesley more than I understand Siobhan's anger at Bridget in Ringer.
     
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  11. kittenpoker

    kittenpoker Raising penguins in Guam

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    Sineya
    I do understand angel's feelings but I'm totally on team wesley here. Yes, he messed up big time by not confiding in anyone in the group and by instead going to holtz. That was a big big f- up on his part! But he then spends the entire summer searching for angel at the bottom of the ocean (even though angel tried to kill him) and the group treats him like dirt for so long! I really feel for wes that whole season.

    Gunn "what happened to you, man?"
    Wesley "I got my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me."

    Yeah pretty much.
     
  12. Angel6

    Angel6 Townie

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    I think us Buffy fans tend to see things in quite black and white ways. It is a bit odd, because really your absolutely right he does make amends and his intentions were very good, but Angels anger is completley understandable. I dont really think this is a time when we need to be 'team' anyone! And Im a bad one for 'team'ing!:eek:
     
  13. kittenpoker

    kittenpoker Raising penguins in Guam

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    Sineya
    I agree, which is why I said in the beginning that I totally understand angel's feelings. :)

    I just like saying "team ____" :)
     
  14. Jodast

    Jodast Hand of the King

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    Sineya
    Not that I am ever going to have a son born of a vampire that gets taken into a Hell dimension by a time-shifted vampire hunter with a 200 year old grudge, but I would like to think I would give someone the chance to make up for their actions.

    I understand why Wesley did it, given the evidence at hand. What I don't understand and thus would find hard to forgive, is the part where he hid what he knew from everyone. He didn't confide in anyone at all, which is ridiculous considering how double-edged prophecies are in the Buffyverse.. Prophecy Girl and To Shanshu in LA ring any bells? So had this been a real prophecy there would almost certainly have been a silver cloud anyway. The fact that it turned out to be a steaming pile of BS makes Wesley's actions all the worse in my eyes.

    What makes Buffy and Angel such great shows, though, is that pretty much no matter how badly people screw up, they almost always try to make amends for their actions. So yes, Wes screwed the pooch when it came to kidnapping and losing Connor but he made up for it afterwards. From what I have seen so far, at least.
     
  15. PassionBecoming

    PassionBecoming Minuscule Redheaded One

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    Sineya
    This is the main point for me. This group has always worked together, through all kinds of nasty problems, prophecies, and everything else. It's been proven time and again that they are stronger and more effective as a group rather than individually. So why would Wesley decide that this is the time to hide things and go rogue?

    I would have a very, very hard time forgiving someone who stole my child from me, and who stole my child's childhood. I don't know if Angel would have forgiving him if Connor had never come back, and I don't know if I would blame him. I think I would forgive, but I don't think I could ever let that person be in my life again. There would be no trust.
     
  16. Ripper666

    Ripper666 Home sweet virtual home!

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    I think if I would have been Angel I wouldn't have forgiven Wesley. If somebody took away my child I would become a monster too I guess. I think it hurt Angel much deeper than anybody here realises because it was his only child and he has no chance to get another one. It was is treasure, everything he had.
     
  17. Cheese Slices

    Cheese Slices Puppy Rescuer

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    I don't think Angel held Wesley responsible (not the main one anyway). He knew Wes was doing what he thought was right. When he assaulted him at the end of Forgiving, it was out of pain: when you're in such pain, holding someone responsible for it makes it easier, and also makes you focus on something else for a moment. And since Wesley was the only one of all the real responsible still around (Holtz, Justine and co were gone), Angel took it out on him.
     
    slayer6: Justine was right next to Angel after she put the demon in the earn
  18. Bangelshipper

    Bangelshipper Townie

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    I hated Wesley when he did that,I was crying when Holtz was running away in hell dimension with Connor,and Angel couldn't stop him :(
    I just can't understand why he didn't tell anyone about the damn prophecy.and in the end the prophecy was fake. all that trouble for nothing :(

    Angel loved that child more than anything.It was his only chance to have a baby in life,it was a beautiful blessing to his life

    I would never forgive anyone something like.to just imagine happening this to me in real life,it makes my skin crawl.
    I forgive him in a way when he saved angel from the ocean tough.But still if was Angel I would NEVER trust Wesley in the same way.and look at him at same way ever again.
     
  19. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    You know, thinking about this thread for the first time in a long time, I would forgive Wesley. I don't think for one second that it would be easy, and I'm not a parent so I suppose I don't have a real, full understanding of what it means to be one, but I think that Wesley, in his own way, was trying to do good. He acted wrongly, and incredibly rashly, and it obviously went down horribly, but he was trying to protect Connor.

    And, Angel did forgive him in the end. Were they as close as they had been, or friends in the same way? I'm not sure, but I think that Angel did get past it and trust him again.
     
  20. SlayerFest

    SlayerFest Wiley Dairy Gnome

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    Black Thorn
    If he had kidnapped my sister without telling me...my infant sister...and she ended up sucked into a hell dimension, I would have tried to smother him. Sure, I'd feel bad about it, but yeah.

    Alright maybe I wouldn't have been able to do it once I saw him with his throat slit in the hospital, but I would have yelled at him and asked him why and I would have cried and thrown mugs and...stuff. If it was my own child, I would have smothered him. I'm 99% sure that I would have (man I love that scene, I mean the very first time I saw that episode I was pissed at Wesley, I remember screaming when Justine took Connor ohhhh MY GOD I AM GETTING THE CHILLS, WHY WESLEY WHY?!?!?!). If we had a talk about why he did it, I would have sympathy for him because I'm sure he would be feeling insanely guilty but I'd really want to hear him apologize, which I'm sure he'd do if I let him talk. If he apologized, I'd forgive him. Maybe. I really don't know if I'd truly forgive him...or if I'd lie to him to make him feel better. I would really have to experience that kind of pain to know how I'd react. *knock on wood*

    He never apologized to Angel, which always irked me, but perhaps too much time had passed. He felt abandoned yada yada yada...it still bothers me.