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Episode Discussion 2.12 "The Hollow Man" - aired 15/1/10 (FOX-US)

Angelic Slayer

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Sineya
Opening this thread up a little early for any Canadians that caught the 8PM early showing (on Global TV).
spoilertv.com said:
Sacrifices are made when Echo leads her crew to Arizona to dismantle the Rossum Corporation's mainframe in the all-new "The Hollow Men" episode of DOLLHOUSE airing Friday, Jan. 15
source: Dollhouse - Episode 2.12 - Hollow Men - Press Release | Spoiler TV

It was the second last episode, what did you think? :)
 

LittleMissLikesToFight

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Well, I pretty much cried my eyes out with that last innocent smile from Boyd. Joss had us, like Echo, trust and love him. And we as an audience were just as betrayed. And yet I cried anyway when he died, even though he was the villian in the end.

To move on to other things, what is with Joss and people getting spattered with the blood of those they cared about? Man he really likes to bring on the traumatic experiences lol.

Enver as Topher, fantastic as always. I hope he goes a long way in his career after this.

Paul's "what did i miss?" line was so perfect, made me laugh despite the stressful situation.

I'm just so dumbstruck by everything i can't even seem to think back straight on the whole episode. I'll have to come back with more thoughts later ha.
 

laianna

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Boyd. Was. So. Creepy.

I could not believe how awful he was, and yet... he was still Boyd, you know? Adelle's line about how he was truley insane just got to me because he was! And it was so sad, because he'd fooled everyone. I am just so shocked by what I've just witnessed! It's crazy!

I mean, he honestly did love them, you could see that on their faces and his. He was so twisted and yet I couldn't help feeling sorry for the guy. He was one of those evil guys that is so completely human and you can understand their motives and everything. But this was so dark an episode. So dark.

Mellie. Oh God, poor Mellie. I guess now we know "what happened to November," huh? That was so sad. Almost worse than Boyd's betrayal. But still, not nearly as close.

And Adelle was brilliant in this episode. I loved how she was able to stand up to Boyd like that, willing to face death over turning November into assassin-mode. She said something like, "I won't be able to do much talking with my brains splattered all over Topher" which was just so fearless. I had to admire her strength, even though this blow was no doubt worse than any unknown Rossum guy in a suit.

Still, we're left with so many questions before the (dundundun) series finale. Like, was this really the end of Dr. Saunders/Whiskey? If yes, Epitaph One was even more misleading than we'd thought. I heard somewhere that Amy Acker wasn't going to be in the last episode, that's only why I bring it up.

And what happened to Alpha? Is he still in the picture?
And Dominic?

I can't decide if it will have a happy ending or not. I could see it going both ways, the cliche being that they save the world, but the other way meaning it's something that rips at our insides for the rest of our lives...

Gah. SO good!
 
Angelic Slayer
Angelic Slayer
Totally agree about Adelle, but totally forgot about Dominic! What DID happen to him?? lol

Angelic Slayer

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Wow, excellent episode this week! A little fast-paced, but all in all I feel like it was almost a two-hour show because so much happened. Overall I was really satisfied with the whole episode, and pleasantly surprised by how much it revolved around the entire cast-- rather than just Echo. And what a great ending; I can see how they might have ended the series if there was only 12 episodes-- with the Paul/Echo scene at the end. But then I remembered that this is Joss Whedon, and I should know better than to think that was the end of the story :silly:


Just do this character by character I guess: really enjoyed seeing Millie's persona back in action. I much prefer that personality to her original one, and I'm glad that they told her she was a doll. It made for some touching scenes between her and Paul that just wouldn't have been the same if she was totally oblivious to her persona being a computer program. I wasn't expecting her to die the way she did (poor thing! :() but I also wasn't surprised that she didn't make it to the last episode. Somebody had to die this episode, and going the way she did she almost became a prime example of why being a doll maybe isn't such a good deal. She went into the dollhouse hoping imprints could take away her emotional distress, and in the end it's those imprints that killed her.

I was glad to see Paul get as much camera time as he did, and he had some great one-liners ("have I missed something here?"). Tahmoh pulled off the scene after Mellie's death very convincingly too, I thought. Not much else to say about him right now-- other than I wished he had kissed Echo at the end. I know, I know, too cheesey to happen on Dollhouse but a gal can hope, can't she? :D
As was the case with Paul, not much to say about Victor/Sierra other than I'm glad that they played their own part in bringing down Rossum (rather than just following around Echo the whole episode). And bringing back Victor-Topher again was genuis, I can never get enough of him! Good thing that he and Sierra went for the "upgraded" imprints of themselves, it'll make them a lot more useful from now on (and perhaps increase their chances of surviving the finale? Maybe?)


Out of all the characters, Topher was probably my favourite in this whole episode. His character development is showing in full colours now, and seeing him take on a hero role is a nice switch. I was pretty shocked when he turned out to be the one to take down Boyd, too. Great of the writer's to give that one to him-- I didn't think Topher was ever going to get to save anybody's life. Speaking of Boyd-- what a way for him to go, eh? Ultimately the company that he had worked to build up was brought down by his own hands. The tech he had created used against him. It's a little sad, a part of me was hoping for a "he's been imprinted! he's not really evil!" explanation-- but I guess just making him an incredibly smart insane person is an acceptable way to go ;).

I have to say though, first Alpha (a maniac with the brain of a genuis!) then Topher (now a borderline crazy person with the brain of a genuis!) and Boyd too? It's like you can't be brilliant unless you're crazy on this show!


Not much to say about DeWitt and Echo. They both showed a great performance and had their respective "shining moments". I was surprised by DeWitt not giving in to Boyd's prying, and her obvious worries about the dolls' well being was touching. And I'm glad that Echo's personality stayed pretty much the same with Caroline added in the mix-- it would have been a shame to see all that personality taken away.


As for the story itself; mind-bending as ever! It really does all make sense now, how Caroline was selected to be a doll and how exactly she was going to "save the world". I didn't think that they would take that kind of approach-- her spinal fluid being the key. I thought she had some kind of super-brain that Rossum was going to replicate or something :silly: apparently I was very wrong! There was some great dialogue this show, and some interesting similarities to BTVS (Paul splattered with Millie's blood-- just like Willow was in BtVS. And Echo running through Rossum's halls seemed seriously like "Graduation Day" to me). And next week (or should I say, the week after) looks like we're in for a great finale. I'm anxious to see how the world ends up a hell in the end (and if they "good guys" end up using Echo's spinal fluid to keep themselves from being imprinted or not). And it'll be neat to see how the characters developed over the 10 years. Even if by the looks of things, maybe life hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows.


I have another bad feeling this week though; don't think Topher's going to make it through the finale. He's just so far gone emotionally and unless he gains a relationship or responsibility in those 10 years that gives him a little more to live for, I can't see him making it through alive. Plus, if he can find a way to reverse the mind tech, he will be one of the few people in the world capable of creating it again-- and that alone may be enough motivation for his life to "end" when the tech does. I expect he'll go down saving the world, maybe sacrifice himself giving everyone their personalities back. Also thinking that Victor dies trying to save Sierra. No particular reason, just a funny feeling. Adelle and Paul I think (hope!) will survive, and Alpha I think will die saving Echo. As for Echo herself, I wish I could tell you my guess for her. I honestly don't have a clue what Joss and the writers have planned for her in the finale, but I'm really looking forward to finding out!

Anyway, there ends my long rants, predictions and raves about this week! ;) Anyone else have guesses for what we may have in store for ourselves next week?
 
Flannen
Flannen
I thought he was going to kiss her too - the look on his face! Gah, I can't believe he didn't! lol

Blondie Bear

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So while the episode was breaked for commercial, I mentioned to Mr. Bear how people were freaked out because Boyd was evil. And we both agreed that if you like a character, they're pretty much evil or dead, because it's Joss. I said, "Yeah, cause I like Mellie and any second now she's just gonna DIE."

I'm actually getting kind of annoyed with how predictable Joss is being with deaths. Serious.
 

Tasha

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OMFG at this episode. Man so sad about Mellie ++Boyd (in the last scene) :(
I nearly started crying when Mellie died, poor paul.
Just when they were both dolls, and he said that it didn't matter.
I'd rather Paul+Mellie than Paul+echo to be honest.

LOL at imprinted Topher. 'I dunno whether i wanna kill him or get his autograph'.

I'm glad Topher finally came to his senses and decided that he wanted to destroy his tech.

Boyd at the end, i literally went ' Oh no'.
Even though i knew he was evil, but it was only because he was a doll and he seemed like the lovable Boyd we knew him as at the beginning,( before we knew that he was really working for Rossum.) His face at the end, so innocent. lmfao.

God i'm speechless..
I'll post more tomorrow, and i'll read everyones posts too.

Didn't anyone think that there was too much in the one episode? :(

I feel so sad that it's coming to an end, but yeah great ending.
I'm glad everything was explained mostly, although it did seem an awful much at the time, but can't blame joss, we must blame Fox :p

Am i a sad biatch for being really upset that we're never gonna get a third season? :(

This season has been truly amazing, and yep happy ending, sorta.
I kinda want to cut out the next episode. Is that terrible? I'm scared of what's gonna happen.. :p
 

Buffyverse Fan

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This was another great episode. The only criticism I have is that Boyd was just "insane." I was hoping for a better reason behind his 2-season long scheming than "he's just crazy." Let me tell you something if a certain
vampire with a soul
has been scheming as Twilight, just because he's "crazy," Whedon will have lost at least one fan to lazy writing.

That said, the episode was just executed so well that most of that can be overlooked. One thing in the episode did however reinforce my theory as to why Dollhouse never made it... Echo/Caroline is just outshone by... everyone. Eliza's great and Echo is interesting, but I feel myself more invested with pretty much all of the other leads.

And re: Whiskey/Saunders, no she's alive. Topher said he got her out of the building.
 
U
ubi4soft
Boyd/Twilight similarity shocked me, too

sk

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Great episode again, lots of stuff happend. Perhaps a little bit too much. But that's understandable.
I really like that we are getting most things explained before the end.

Enver playing Topher is gold, great to see it once more.

Also think that they have been much better at getting some humor into the episodes lately.
It was lacking some of that in season 1 especially imo.

Angelic Slayer said:
Totally agree about Adelle, but totally forgot about Dominic! What DID happen to him?? lol
Isn't he still in the attic at the Dollhouse?
He was sent back there in the previous episode if I remember correctly.

/SK
 

MinwaraYana

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A good ep, but not as great as The Attic and Getting Closer.

First off, I expected to see much more of Bennett since I read in IMDB that she's in this episode. At least there was a "Caroline, don't leave me" scene. Thank you! :D

Clyde never failed to gross me out. I think he's creepier than Boyd. I never thought I would be afraid looking at Amy Acker's face.

I so love love Victor being Topher. I'm glad they brought him back again. And aww, Anthony and Priya are such a married couple. :D

I didn't feel sad much when Boyd died. Am I evil? But when Mellie died, I cried. And I even cried harder when Paul met Boyd and told him Adelle killed her. His voice, his expression...It's like he's going to cry. :( I'm definitely Paul/Mellie more than Paul/Echo.

Kudos Adelle when she was not afraid to get shot.

I agree with AS about the similarities to BtVS. But when Echo was running out off the building, I thought of Buffy in Chosen rather than in Graduation Day. :p
 

Sweetescape

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Again I really liked this episode. Topher really stood out for me, I totally love him!. It was awful to see everything that he loved/believed it get totally trashed in the space for 2 episodes. Damn you Joss!. Enver as Topher is just the best thing ever, he has all his mannerisms down to a tee. I'm glad at least one couple has survived so far, I'm holding out that Priar and Anthony might actually make it to the end. Seeing Mellie and Paul together again was heart breaking when she shot herself, poor Paul.
The fight scene between Amy and Eliza was great :D and I loved seeing a lot more Amy in this episode, what actually happened to her once she got knocked out? did they get her out the building? I thought I heard Paul say to Topher something about "getting Saunders out" or was that just me?.
Boyd,Boyd,Boyd! I still like him, when he was talking about being a family I was still in "awww good Boyd" thoughts!, he plays the villain really well. I was hoping they'd take him once he got wiped but no :(. I kept thinking about the episode in season one "The Target" (I think) were Boyd and Echo are sat under that tree, so heart breaking that she had to kill him.
I was also pleasently surprised that Adelle really stuck by them. I thought she might switch once she thought she could get a better position within Rossum or something. It was nice to see them all come together as a proper team. Like Priar and Anthony coming back when they could have left.
Nice to see that there was still a bit of Joss humour in the episode as well. Otherwise it would have been so dark and depressing. My favourite line is:
Topher-"Thought-pocolypse or is "Brain-pocolypse better?"
and Boyd "there's always one relative you could live without"-that might not be the exact quote but it's the jist.

If Joss being like he is with death of people that have grown kills Topher I'll be so seriously upset. I REALLY,really hope that he doesn't be so predictable
 

Flannen

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Amazing episode again! Loved every second of it.

Adele is truly one hell of a woman. She has so much strength that used to be used in order to protect herself but now she uses it to preserve the lies of those she cares about. I loved how she reached for Topher's hand when he was talking about how Boyd killed Bennett when Claire did. She has consistently been one of my favourite characters and I love the fact that even though Boyd has been her right hand man throughout the whole facade, he still didn't expect her to tell him to shoot her instead of activating Mellie. Boyd claims he's the one who made Adele as strong as she is, yet even he didn't expect that.

Topher stole this episode I thought. The fact he was still so caught up by Bennett's death but didn't overplay it was great. He was obviously really hurt by Boyd's betrayal too but I loved how he still got one over on him by leaving his imprint behind for Priya and Anthony. So this is where we begin to see Topher's guilt really start to take hold, my heart broke for him all over again. I think it was really fitting that he was the one to take Boyd down, even more so than Echo - after all, he 'chose' Topher. I'm wondering if the fact that they did actually activate one piece of that equipment is why they still meet the same Epitaph One fate?

I was also really glad Paul got so much screen time, and like AS was absolutely aching for him to kiss Echo at the end, ha. I hope they actually stick it out, I love them together and think he should just give in already! His scenes with Mellie were really touching and he played her death scene really well. Like everyone else, loved the 'did I miss something' line, that was great.

It was really fitting for it to have been Priya and Anthony who saved Echo from the spinal tap thing! :p They went back to save her because of what she had done for them and I'm really glad that they got to pay her back.

I actually really didn't like Amy Acker as Clyde, it just didn't work for me.

I can't believe Boyd was actually the bad guy, as in, really, truly, not a nice person. What a git! At first I thought his 'I love you guys' line was absolutely ridiculous and laughable, in a bad way, but then I realised he is actually quite insane, there's definitely some screws lose somewhere.

But despite all that, when I realised what Echo was asking him to do, I was so sad. I think it says a lot about the nature of the dolls and the imprints though but I'm not really in the mental position to explain what I mean right now, sorry! I'm hoping once the episode shock wears off, I'll be able to formulate some thoughts.

Oh, and the other thing I was really glad about was the fact that even Echo could relate to why Caroline had tried to do what she did. She's spent so long dreading having Caroline's personality anywhere near her but I liked the fact that when it did happen, she could understand and wanted to help her finish it.

But it seems that it's not finished is it? So where do we go from here?

Personally, I want everyone to survive but I don't think it's going to happen! I REALLY want Paul and Echo to make it though. Seriously. :p
 

Washburne

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Seeing Victor/Anthony once again as Topher was of course nothing but briliant. I wonder if that was always the plan or if they brought him back again for the fans knowing that the show wouldn't get a third season. Mellie ending up dead was no surprise. I wasn't sure about Boyd though even if it seems logical. Seeing him in Dollstate knowing he was going to die touched me a bit even if he was the bad guy. Would liked to have seen much more of his past but obviously there's no time.

What now keeps me thinking is the timeline. All the flashbacks we saw in Epitaph One, there will they all fit in. At least one of them is from before this episode. I so need to watch the show again. Damn my bad memory.


I'm actually getting kind of annoyed with how predictable Joss is being with deaths. Serious.
I'm a bit torned about that. Sure "knowing" that people are going to end up dead (but season one was surprising that way;)) takes away a lot. But at the same time I rather have that instead of "Everyone will be ok" which seems to happen a lot of times in other shows. If you're not a Whedonfan as such you don't think about it as we do. You just watch shows you like.
 

Blondie Bear

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I'm a bit torned about that. Sure "knowing" that people are going to end up dead (but season one was surprising that way;)) takes away a lot. But at the same time I rather have that instead of "Everyone will be ok" which seems to happen a lot of times in other shows. If you're not a Whedonfan as such you don't think about it as we do. You just watch shows you like.
I'm perfectly fine with people dying. It's supposed to be somewhat realistic and deaths happen in these sorts of situations. It's just that, at this point, I can tell you exactly who's going to die and probably why, and occasionally how. At first it was a whole shock value thing, with Joss being willing to kill off beloved characters to make the plot move, but now it's just "I like Mellie. Therefore, she's going to die. Probably horribly." I even called it with Bennet; "She's smiling. She looks truly happy. She might even be saner. She's dead in three . . . two . . ."
 

nerd4hire

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I'm perfectly fine with people dying. It's supposed to be somewhat realistic and deaths happen in these sorts of situations. It's just that, at this point, I can tell you exactly who's going to die and probably why, and occasionally how.
Ha...I challenge you then. Who's next? Why, and how? ;) :)
 
B
Blondie Bear
Okay, let me clarify: within an episode I can usually tell. When Epitaph Two's airing in two weeks, we'll discuss who's gonna die and why and how. ;)

Bluebird

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Maybe I'm just stupid, but I get confused at a lot of the storylines in Dollhouse. Sometimes it feels like they're making it up as they go along, trying to cram bits in. But still, I loved this ep. I felt so bad for Topher, and Paul - his face when Mellie killed herself was just so sad :(. The stuff with Boyd, and why he did what he did, I don't think was properly explained. I think it could have been helped with some flashbacks to season 1 or something, showing what he'd been up to behind the scenes.
 
B
Blondie Bear
Apparently they sort of are because they wrote Epitaph One not expecting to get a second season.
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It was really confusing to me. Spinal fluids? :| Boyd!!!!!! NO! Why did you have to be evil? And when she had him blow himself up? *sniffle* Gosh and Mellie! That was horrible. :(
When Topher called Adelle the lion from the Wizard of Oz I cried "NU UH, That woman ain't scared of nuttin!"
I was really happy to see Enver as Topher again. Enver always blows me away when it comes to acting.
I'm looking forward to next week's episode.
 

Washburne

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I thought Topher called himself the lion (cowardly), and Adelle the tin man (no heart). Is that not correct?
Nope. "I'm the tin man, she's the lion". Just checked to be sure.

Hope we'll get to see how Whiskey becomes the person/inprint we saw in Epitaph One.
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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This was another great episode. The only criticism I have is that Boyd was just "insane." I was hoping for a better reason behind his 2-season long scheming than "he's just crazy." Let me tell you something if a certain
vampire with a soul
has been scheming as Twilight, just because he's "crazy," Whedon will have lost at least one fan to lazy writing.

That said, the episode was just executed so well that most of that can be overlooked. One thing in the episode did however reinforce my theory as to why Dollhouse never made it... Echo/Caroline is just outshone by... everyone. Eliza's great and Echo is interesting, but I feel myself more invested with pretty much all of the other leads.

And re: Whiskey/Saunders, no she's alive. Topher said he got her out of the building.
I agree with what you're saying about being invested in every character except Echo. Perhaps the lackluster nature of the main character is why the show failed. While I'll admit she's grown on me (I love for brave she is, for instance) I find myself for more interested in Topher, Victor, and Adelle.

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

Amazing episode again! Loved every second of it.
Me, too. ;)

Adele is truly one hell of a woman. She has so much strength that used to be used in order to protect herself but now she uses it to preserve the lies of those she cares about. I loved how she reached for Topher's hand when he was talking about how Boyd killed Bennett when Claire did. She has consistently been one of my favourite characters and I love the fact that even though Boyd has been her right hand man throughout the whole facade, he still didn't expect her to tell him to shoot her instead of activating Mellie. Boyd claims he's the one who made Adele as strong as she is, yet even he didn't expect that.
Yes, Adelle is quite exceptional. It will be interesting to see what becomes of her.

Topher stole this episode I thought. The fact he was still so caught up by Bennett's death but didn't overplay it was great. He was obviously really hurt by Boyd's betrayal too but I loved how he still got one over on him by leaving his imprint behind for Priya and Anthony. So this is where we begin to see Topher's guilt really start to take hold, my heart broke for him all over again. I think it was really fitting that he was the one to take Boyd down, even more so than Echo - after all, he 'chose' Topher. I'm wondering if the fact that they did actually activate one piece of that equipment is why they still meet the same Epitaph One fate?
Despite it taking a while to warm up to him, Topher has fast become one of my favorite characters on the show, along with Paul, Mellie, and Victor. Even in the short time we have known him, his character has come so far. He started out as a cocky, seemingly morally-void arrogant supporting character, but it's become more apparent how much he is truly bothered by what he has had a hand in creating. Great stuff. Topher is character gold, in my opinion. I'm always interested in him every episode, while I can't always say that about Paul (but that could perhaps be because lately he hasn't been given much screen-time.)
In regard to the thing Topher used to wipe Boyd - yes, I think what probably happens is that the thing is stolen, then replicated, and therefore abused and mass-produced as they has feared.

I was also really glad Paul got so much screen time, and like AS was absolutely aching for him to kiss Echo at the end, ha. I hope they actually stick it out, I love them together and think he should just give in already! His scenes with Mellie were really touching and he played her death scene really well. Like everyone else, loved the 'did I miss something' line, that was great.
Me, too. Paul has been my favorite character from the start. Back in the beginning of the show, I made a comment that I thought that Paul was the protagonist of the show (not Echo) because everything always seemed to revolve around him.

I don't approve of Echo/Paul romantically, I prefer him with Mellie - but Paul and Echo's friendship is very touching. I think there's much more potential there then for romance. It's sad that Echo loves him and that his love for her was removed, but who knows - maybe he could learn to love her again? I'm not necessarily against them as a couple.

I was honestly really shocked about Mellie's death. It was so sad and tragic. She killed herself so she could save herself from killing him. She really loved him, I think. It wasn't just her "program."

Leave it to Joss to kill two people in one episode.

It was really fitting for it to have been Priya and Anthony who saved Echo from the spinal tap thing! :p They went back to save her because of what she had done for them and I'm really glad that they got to pay her back.
I knew they'd be back. I knew they wouldn't abandon Echo!
The three of them make a great team.

I actually really didn't like Amy Acker as Clyde, it just didn't work for me.
I think she pulled it off, but she definitely creeped me out. It was bizarre to see her play such an awful character. She usually plays sweet girls, at least in what I've seen of her work.

I can't believe Boyd was actually the bad guy, as in, really, truly, not a nice person. What a git! At first I thought his 'I love you guys' line was absolutely ridiculous and laughable, in a bad way, but then I realised he is actually quite insane, there's definitely some screws lose somewhere.
I was also shocked about this. His "handler" relationship with Echo was one of my favorite parts of the show. I was really upset back in the day when he was fired as her handler. Now, in light of his being evil, his love for her seems like a twisted lie. Boy, did he hurt Echo. For once, I honestly felt sorry for her. But she's strong, and he got what he deserved. And what a ironic twist it was! Boyd blowing up the corporation he created! Classic.

But despite all that, when I realized what Echo was asking him to do, I was so sad. I think it says a lot about the nature of the dolls and the imprints though but I'm not really in the mental position to explain what I mean right now, sorry! I'm hoping once the episode shock wears off, I'll be able to formulate some thoughts.
I felt bad for Boyd, too. I think that, in an essence, is the whole point of the show; the ambiguous nature of "evil". Even though arguably Boyd deserved to die, Echo was still devastated by what she had to do.

Personally, I want everyone to survive but I don't think it's going to happen! I REALLY want Paul and Echo to make it though. Seriously. :p
I think Paul and Echo will make it through. I always saw the show as being about the two of them.

I'm more worried about Victor and Sierra. After all, they're so happy...and we all know what Joss likes to do to happy couples.
 
B
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i'm kinda meh on this ep
I knew the end would be kinda rushed, but i am just really confused right now.

what the hell is up with Boyd? the Boyd/Echo/SpinalFluid/cure/i'mevilznow didn't make any since to me.

Why go to all that trouble? Why didn't they take Echo's Spinal Fluid in the first place.

And what was up with Boyds "I love you all like my family, except paul" (Though i must admit i agree, i do not get the appeal of paul.)


just....what?...


on the good side of things I really like the Topher and Adelle scenes.
 
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