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A redemption arc for Lilah?

Gum Gnome33

"Well, yeah..."
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
1,148
Sineya
I really love a good redemption arc, if it's well done. For me, Spike's was ideal. Faith's felt really rushed and a bit forced. I'm curious to know how you guys think Lilah's arc could have gone? Maybe her feelings for Wesley, (assuming she had them), could have inspired her to change, assuming Cordy/Jasmine hadn't killed her? What do you think that would have looked like? Would it have been possible, or would it have come out feeling forced and OOC? What would it take for Lilah to change, or to be inspired to work for another side, (ie one not offering her the "finer things?") Is there something she might have valued more than what W&H could offer her?
Or do you think things were better as they happened; there were subtle changes but she didn't actually redeem herself to anyone?
 

This Year's Girl

Grateful grapefruit
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Sineya
I think Lilahs arc would've been amazing! The actress that played her were amazing, so I don't think it would feel forced. I don't think her love for Wesley would been enough, I'm more thinking the love for herself and wanting better circumstances. Some kind of insight. Maybe we could've seen something from her childhood and it could've started from there.
 

shadcat

Confidant & Sex Poodle
Joined
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That would be interesting. There were certain times we saw the "human" side of her. So I think it could of been possible. But in order for that to happen she would of had to stay around Angel's crew more often and away from the evil temptations of Wolfram & Hart. Ironically, the episode where she dies is the one where she is "hanging out" with Angel's crew. I think if she had lived past that episode and somehow stuck around the team she could of slowly changed.
 

The Scourge

Scooby
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Apr 21, 2011
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I would have loved a Lilah redemption arc. It would have had to been slow going so as to feel natural and not like "Hey, look! Lilah's a good guy now!"

I think Wesley would have been the catalyst for her redemption, but she would have also wanted better for herself. Like decent job security.
 

dexeded

Scooby
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
1,118
Black Thorn
Interesting. I liked Lilah as shades-of-grey, how her arc was played out on AtS, but I wouldn't mind a redemption one either.. I don't think love for Wesley would do it, though.
 
E

EffyStonem

Guest
I honestly don't think a redemption arc would work for Lilah. She's just not that type of character.

Faith, Angel and Spike all ended up wanting to do good. They wanted to be redeemed, they yearned to be accepted and to be seen as "good". Lilah has never had this conflict. She knows what her job entails, she knows the risks, she understands that she will be asked to do unspeakable acts of evil and she is fine with that.

For Lilah it's all about self-preservation. She stays at Wolfram & Hart because it provides her with security, a more-than-comfortable lifestyle and she has the means to take care of her mother. She accepts what needs to be done and she does it with no qualms. In Season 3 Angel confronts her, full of indignation over the fact that they fed him Connor's blood. He emotionally and furiously asks Lilah how she could do such a thing and she coolly replies that it's her job. There's no room for personal feelings.

I'm not saying that Lilah is pure evil. She falls in love with Wes, she cares about her mother and she obviously has a conscience. However she will always go where there is power and security and where she has the best chance of survival. Unlike Lindsay, she has never been conflicted about her job and she has never sought redemption, and she probably never would.
 
thetopher
thetopher
[No message]

kittenpoker

Raising penguins in Guam
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Sineya
I would LOVE to see a lilah redemption arc!!!! I agree that spike's was great and faith's was rushed... I think, in a way, every character had their own (whether potential or fulfilled) redemption arc.

But I totally feel that lilah had a lot of potential for a big dramatic redemption story!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Sineya
Yeah, I prefer Lilah as somebody that Wesley may have been able to save from themselves if she hadn't been killed off, but I'm not sure I would've classed it as a redeption arc.
She never felt conflicted about what she did, she told Angel that many times.

Sometimes it's just good to have a really well-acted villain, with a human side to be sure, but still somebody who doesn't get the whole 'good' angle that you can root against. :)

Honestly, if you want a redeemable W&H villain, you have it in Lindsey. :)


Oh, I do take slight issue with your assertion that Faith's arc was 'rushed' or 'forced'- we see her run the full range of emotions from S3 to S7. (slayer ally then evil then guilt-ridden-then hero)
Spike gets his arc in S7 when he gets a soul- and when it happens, to me, it seemed forced and old-hat. We'd seen it before with Angel.
 
Samuel Reyes
Samuel Reyes
Yea I could see Lindsey turning good

TotallySpiked

Slaying
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Black Thorn
Oh, I do take slight issue with your assertion that Faith's arc was 'rushed' or 'forced'- we see her run the full range of emotions from S3 to S7. (slayer ally then evil then guilt-ridden-then hero)
Spike gets his arc in S7 when he gets a soul- and when it happens, to me, it seemed forced and old-hat. We'd seen it before with Angel.

Spikes arc started long before he got his soul at the end of season 6. We had seen his character changing since season 4- more so season 5. It was a long progression for his character to get where he ended up.
 

thetopher

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Spikes arc started long before he got his soul at the end of season 6. We had seen his character changing since season 4- more so season 5. It was a long progression for his character to get where he ended up.

Falling in love with the slayer is not the same as redemption. If you want to say that Spike's character changed a great deal in S5 and 6, fine, but he's still a monster. His treatment of Buffy is proof enough.
But Spike could only start to become a character and not a monster after the horrifying events in 'Seeing Red', where he decides to go and reclaim his soul. He knows he can't become a man before this happens. Only then do we see him begin to feel remorse/guilt for past actions and fight back.
I understand that he develops and grows character-wise, but redemption? Really only possible with a soul, that's the point of 'Seeing Red.'

Spike in S7 of Buffy and S5 of Angel is all about his development of 'vampire with a soul' into hero. He's one of the main reasons I like S5 of Angel so much.:)
 

TotallySpiked

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Black Thorn
Falling in love with the slayer is not the same as redemption. If you want to say that Spike's character changed a great deal in S5 and 6, fine, but he's still a monster.

In my opinion his character developed definately within season 5 and season 6. Within season 5 we see a 'softer' side of Spike; ie, promising to take care of Dawn and the quiet moment he had with Buffy on her stairs after finding out about Joyce. I don't think for a second that Spike did either of those things to undermine Buffy or to try and manipulate her. This was proven when he was still looking after Dawn when Buffy had died. He had no idea she was being brought back, nor was he aware he would get any recognition etc.

I'm not in anyway saying that this is his redemption arc, but all the events that happened in season 5 and season 6 lead up to the 'epiphany' he has to get his soul restored. Spike hit rock bottom in 'Seeing Red'. He knew the decision he had made was horrible and unforgivable but he wanted to be the person that would never have done that. He wanted to change but knew full well that he couldn't unless he had a soul. No one would ever take him seriously or even think he didn't have an ulterior motive unless he had that soul.

Without the events of season 5 and 6 Spike would not have reached that moment to get the soul which was the catalyst for season 7 and then on season 5 of Angel.

Spike in S7 of Buffy and S5 of Angel is all about his development of 'vampire with a soul' into hero. He's one of the main reasons I like S5 of Angel so much.:)

And I do agree. Season 5 of Angel is made extra great because of the addition of en-souled spike :)
 

Sternbeeere

Glory´s sane(?) groupie
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382
First of all in my opinion Lilah is grey area character, so redemption in terms of bad girl gone good does not work with her. Also she is confident with the choices she made and more mature than most of the other characters, so there is no motivation for her to redeem.
However, what I would like to see or would find nice is Lilah moving from the dark-grey area she is now to a more light-grey area. That means helping the "good" site instead of Wolfram and Heart. This is because in my opinion she would be a real refreshment at Angel, more the calculating, realistic type. She would also bring in new knowledge and skills, which would be both useful to Angel and good to look at. (knowledge of law, connections, knowledge of how to use guns)
 

Mr Trick

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First of all in my opinion Lilah is grey area character, so redemption in terms of bad girl gone good does not work with her. Also she is confident with the choices she made and more mature than most of the other characters, so there is no motivation for her to redeem.
However, what I would like to see or would find nice is Lilah moving from the dark-grey area she is now to a more light-grey area. That means helping the "good" site instead of Wolfram and Heart. This is because in my opinion she would be a real refreshment at Angel, more the calculating, realistic type. She would also bring in new knowledge and skills, which would be both useful to Angel and good to look at. (knowledge of law, connections, knowledge of how to use guns)

Was thinking something like this. I to think that Lilah works best as an evil character but with shades of humanity and goodness. I think a remdemption would have be like Faith's but without the journey. I could see her like Faith in Buffy S7 where she has strong will to be on the good team but is not all goody-goody.

I can see Lilah being against W&H because ultimatley that place just made her unhappy. But a full blown switch I do not see. Her personality is just too set for that. Part of Faith's redemption came from the fact that she was a Slayer originally and that she was still at a young age where her mind could presuaded back.
 

Kana

Soulless human
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Lilah is fantastic example of the villian having character development without having to go down the redemption route. Not only do we see her shades of humanity but she actually develops from a "Smug Snake" and some who jumps everytime Angel says "boo" to someone who fought back against the Beast and can stare down Angel without even flinching.
 

Sternbeeere

Glory´s sane(?) groupie
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Was thinking something like this. I to think that Lilah works best as an evil character but with shades of humanity and goodness. I think a remdemption would have be like Faith's but without the journey. I could see her like Faith in Buffy S7 where she has strong will to be on the good team but is not all goody-goody.

I can see Lilah being against W&H because ultimatley that place just made her unhappy. But a full blown switch I do not see. Her personality is just too set for that. Part of Faith's redemption came from the fact that she was a Slayer originally and that she was still at a young age where her mind could presuaded back.
My scenarios would be either that W&H would ultimately threat her existence, or her mothers or the world to an extent, that she would be affected or that she would see more advantages on being with Angels group, like seeing them being stronger etc. Then she would loosely associate with them, and gain information from the demon world for them or giving advice. She would also fight with guns, when needed or do the more morally ambitious, but necessary things. An other thing is that I deem her capable of calming down/counteract the more reckless, immature or idealistic characters.
 

AnthonyCordova

modulating between criticism and reconstruction
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Sineya
I liked Lilah and the idea of a redemption arc has possibilities but do we need to redeem everyone? I like that some characters are just bad and more or less irredeemable, yet likable too.
 

Give Us A Kiss

Fuffy Apologist
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Sineya
I personally like the idea of Lilah getting a redemption arc, she has the potential and I like seeing her on my screen :)
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
I like how she dies just as she was starting to redeem herself. She really is too wicked and sinful to deserve redemption. And they do the same thing with Lindsey in Not Fade Away. Their deaths are perfect.
 
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