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A Relationship For Angel

white avenger

white avenger
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Considering the fact that Buffy is now in a real relationship with Spike, and given the fact that Angel did, more or less, move on with Nina in his Season 5, and, in so doing, discover that he actually could have a degree of happiness without losing his soul, do you think that Angel should get involved with someone else, or just continue living like a monk and hoping for the day when he will earn the Shanshu (assuming that it still exists in the New Magic Buffyverse) and Buffy will come back to him?
 

Guy

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Angel should be with Vicki the Vampire. It'd be hilarious. It'd be like Angel/Spike, but with more sex.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
I think the shadow of Buffy is always going to be hanging over him. Riley moved on and Oz moved on but I think the difficulty was severe and I doubt Angel can move on since he is entirely focused on his own past. He may have some dalliances as with Darla and Nina but there is no scenario I could imagine where a girl appears who makes him forget about Buffy or at least makes it possible to move on to a new relationship. Don't forget, after Nina there was Buffy again when Angel became twilight.
 

white avenger

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He may have some dalliances as with Darla and Nina but there is no scenario I could imagine where a girl appears who makes him forget about Buffy or at least makes it possible to move on to a new relationship.
No one ever forgets their first love, but, for most people, the most important reason for having a first love is that, without one, there can never be a second, third, or even twentieth, love. It was established with Nina that Angel could have a quite satisfying relationship (which might have actually grown into something special if he hadn't decided to send LA and all of its residents to hell just so he could thumb his nose at the Senior Partners) without losing his soul, just by taking Wes' advice and settling for, like all other men, a "99.99999%" true happiness with someone other than Buffy.

For the moment, at least, Buffy is quite happy with another man, and there's no reason whatsoever for Angel to not move on as well.
 

Priceless

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I think it detracts from Angel's character that he can't move on. His emotions seem frozen in time and that's very sad. In the comics, he's surrounded by clever, gorgeous, kickass women and he doesn't even seem bothered, it's as though he's switched off that part of himself. So yes I would love to see him in a relationship with someone other than Buffy, and hope that happens in S11.
 

white avenger

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I think it detracts from Angel's character that he can't move on. His emotions seem frozen in time and that's very sad.
Not just sad, it's downright pathetic. Consider this. We're supposed to believe that Liam was this drinking, brawling, wenching ne'er-do-well whose appetites for debauchery had gotten him thrown out of his own home. That man becomes Angelus, a scheming, murdering, raping monster who becomes the most feared monster in Europe since Attila the Hun. That monster gets a soul forced into its carcass, and it becomes a brooding recluse who leads a self imposed life style that few monks could even tolerate for over a century. He finally falls in love with a 15 year old teenage cheerleader, makes love to her once, and temporarily reverts to the murdering, raping monster and tries to end the world before the cheerleader rams a sword into his chest and sends him to hell for a century. He returns to the real world and resumes his monk-like existence, except for one night of utter depression, when he has sex with his former vampire lover and a couple of other brief encounters when, under the influence of assorted spells, he has mad, senseless sex, then reverts back to the monk. Finally, in what might be seen as another act of depression, after finding out that, supposedly, his cheerleader/Slayer/one true love is having an affair with his worst enemy, he has sex with a werewolf, then sends, not only himself, but everyone in Los Angeles County to hell again. Then, after escaping from hell for a second time, he strikes a deal with a sentient universe to become its general and execute a plot to destroy the universe, which is once more thwarted by his cheerleader/Slayer/one true love after another brief interlude of spell induced, superhuman, mindless shagging. He then murders the mentor of the cheerleader/Slayer/one true love's mentor, and spends a year, once more in his monk;like life style, getting him resurrected as a teenager. Finally, at present, he is living, surrounded by several attractive heroic women who would probably be more than happy to provide him with an occasional few moments of noncommittal pleasure, if he would only ask, which he obviously won't ever do, because he's still hoping that the cheerleader/Slayer/one true love will break off her current, apparently happy, relationship with his vampire grandson and return to him, at which time, he will still surely lose his soul if he ever makes love with her.

That's not sad. That's not even tragic. That's downright pathetic.
 
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Guy

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Not just sad, it's downright pathetic. Consider this. We're supposed to believe that Liam was this drinking, brawling, wenching ne'er-do-well whose appetites for debauchery had gotten him thrown out of his own home. That man becomes Angelus, a scheming, murdering, raping monster who becomes the most feared monster in Europe since Attila the Hun. That monster gets a soul forced into its carcass, and it becomes a brooding recluse who leads a self imposed life style that few monks could even tolerate for over a century. He finally falls in love with a 15 year old teenage cheerleader, makes love to her once, and temporarily reverts to the murdering, raping monster and tries to end the world before the cheerleader rams a sword into his chest and sends him to hell for a century. He returns to the real world and resumes his monk-like existence, except for one night of utter depression, when he has sex with his former vampire lover and a couple of other brief encounters when, under the influence of assorted spells, he has mad, senseless sex, then reverts back to the monk. Finally, in what might be seen as another act of depression, after finding out that, supposedly, his cheerleader/Slayer/one true love is having an affair with his worst enemy, he has sex with a werewolf, then sends, not only himself, but everyone in Los Angeles County to hell again. Then, after escaping from hell for a second time, he strikes a deal with a sentient universe to become its general and execute a plot to destroy the universe, which is once more thwarted by his cheerleader/Slayer/one true love after another brief interlude of spell induced, superhuman, mindless shagging. He then murders the mentor of the cheerleader/Slayer/one true love's mentor, and spends a year, once more in his monk;like life style, getting him resurrected as a teenager. Finally, at present, he is living, surrounded by several attractive heroic women who would probably be more than happy to provide him with an occasional few moments of noncommittal pleasure, if he would only ask, which he obviously won't ever do, because he's still hoping that the cheerleader/Slayer/one true love will break off her current, apparently happy, relationship with his vampire grandson and return to him, at which time, he will still surely lose his soul if he ever makes love with her.

That's not sad. That's not even tragic. That's downright pathetic.
Hmmm...

1) I don't mind characters who act pathetically. Spike was often the most pathetic character in the buffyverse (he built a Buffy-shaped sexbot because Buffy wouldn't sleep with him!!!), and he's an amzing character IMO. Pathetic behaviour is interesting material for stories.

2) I don't think that Angel isn't moving on (as in, finding another Nina) because he hopes Buffy will come back to him, I think he doesn't move on because he just doesn't want to - monk-like behaviour comes naturally to him. He only got together with Nina because SHE tried to hit on him. Angel just isn't an initiator, when it comes to relationships. The real question isn't why Angel doesn't move on, the real question is why don't the writers introduce a woman who's attracted to him?

3) I'm much more bothered by the fact that Faith, who was introduced with the phrase "isn't it funny how slaying just always makes you hungry and horny?", didn't have sex even ONCE in all the canonical comics. Seriously, not even ONCE?!?! Let the girl get her rocks off!
 

white avenger

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Spike was often the most pathetic character in the buffyverse
I'm much more bothered by the fact that Faith, who was introduced with the phrase "isn't it funny how slaying just always makes you hungry and horny?"
It could be pointed out that Spike, in the end (or at least as for now) is actually in a more or less healthy, rewarding relationship with the woman he loves, so he's doing fairly well. As for Faith, I can't help but wonder if something about her relationship with Wood has really hurt her more than she has ever been willing to let on.

I can't help but wonder, what is it about Joss Whedon that makes him so determined destroy every happy relationship in his universe whenever possible? Maybe there's some kind of therapy or medication that someone could recommend.
 

Guy

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It could be pointed out that Spike, in the end (or at least as for now) is actually in a more or less healthy, rewarding relationship with the woman he loves, so he's doing fairly well.
Sure, but he was a compelling character back then, too.

As for Faith, I can't help but wonder if something about her relationship with Wood has really hurt her more than she has ever been willing to let on.
Possible, but I doubt it. Faith had bad relationships before, and her relationship with Robin wasn't anything that significant, so I don't see why it'd scar her.

Of course, we never actually saw WHY they broke up, so anything's possible. Personally, my head-canon is that Faith was just difficult to live with (in season 8 she thinks to herself something like "Why am I always such a dick to everyone who's the least bit nice to me?"), and that the break-up was mostly because of her.

I can't help but wonder, what is it about Joss Whedon that makes him so determined destroy every happy relationship in his universe whenever possible? Maybe there's some kind of therapy or medication that someone could recommend.
Well, I can't talk for Joss, but personally I think he's doing it because happy couples become boring if they last long. Happy endings can work if they're THE END of the story, but if a story continues then couples eventually have to end, so that the story won't become boring. For example - Kaylee and Simon could get a happily-ever-after in 'Serenity' because it was the end of the story, but if the story continued, then they would have eventually broken up. Either that, or they would have become boring.

I mean, I just can't think of any romantic relationship, in any story, that managed to last long without becoming boring. Happiness just isn't interesting for more than a short while.
 

white avenger

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Possible, but I doubt it. Faith had bad relationships before, and her relationship with Robin wasn't anything that significant, so I don't see why it'd scar her.
Since the whole thing apparently happened in the time between Seasons 7 & 8, we'll never know, of course, unless some new story line brings it up, but Faith refers to him as her "ex," which is, I believe, the first time that she has ever used that expression, and her previous love life seemed to consist of a series of one night stands. That's what leads me to suspect that something happened beyond just a casual roll in the hay. One obvious possibility is that Robin's whole attraction to Faith, and possibly Buffy before her, had more to do with wanting his mommy back than anything else. Another would simply be that Faith has trouble committing to anything more permanent than two or three nights with the same guy.
 
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RomanticSoul

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Considering the fact that Buffy is now in a real relationship with Spike...
Does this line of argument even work anymore considering the last Season in the comics? Being with Spike is the same as being with Angel since Angel=Spike and vice versa, right? So it doesn't really matter which of the two she is with. They are totally interchangeable.
 

white avenger

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Does this line of argument even work anymore considering the last Season in the comics? Being with Spike is the same as being with Angel since Angel=Spike and vice versa, right? So it doesn't really matter which of the two she is with. They are totally interchangeable.
Only if you rule out the fact that Angel is as dull as a table lamp.

But, compare Spike and Angel any way that you care to, my point still remains. Buffy has someone, even if you see him as an Angel substitute, while Angel has no one, either as a substitute or replacement for Buffy.
 

RomanticSoul

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Only if you rule out the fact that Angel is as dull as a table lamp.

But, compare Spike and Angel any way that you care to, my point still remains. Buffy has someone, even if you see him as an Angel substitute, while Angel has no one, either as a substitute or replacement for Buffy.
Might wanna read my post again. I wasn't talking about how I see it. I was talking about the CANON which supposedly the comics are. And the canon is that Angel and Spike are the same guy, to quote Buffy. Or was that retconned somewhere in S10? The same Season that made that statement.
 

white avenger

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Might wanna read my post again. I wasn't talking about how I see it. I was talking about the CANON which supposedly the comics are. And the canon is that Angel and Spike are the same guy, to quote Buffy. Or was that retconned somewhere in S10? The same Season that made that statement.
Even if you consider Angel and Spike to be so similar as to be interchangeable, which I don't, the fact remains that Angel, himself, is not currently in any sort of relationship with either of the women with whom he is working, or anyone else, and he hasn't been in anything resembling one since his one night stand with Nina. Hence, the subject of the thread: Do you think that Angel should be in a relationship, or should he continue, for some unknown reason, to live like a monk? Since Angel left Sunnydale in Season 3, Buffy has had three lovers, so she obviously has moved on to some extent. Angel has not.
 

Mylie

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Might wanna read my post again. I wasn't talking about how I see it. I was talking about the CANON which supposedly the comics are. And the canon is that Angel and Spike are the same guy, to quote Buffy. Or was that retconned somewhere in S10? The same Season that made that statement.
Did the comics really say that? I'm just asking because I'm still reading season 9.

If so then definitely not looking forward to that...
 

Guy

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Did the comics really say that? I'm just asking because I'm still reading season 9.

If so then definitely not looking forward to that...
Of course the comics don't really say that Angel and Spike are the same person. Well, technically they do say it, but they obviously don't mean it literally. It was just hyperbole.
 

Mylie

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Of course the comics don't really say that Angel and Spike are the same person. Well, technically they do say it, but they obviously don't mean it literally. It was just hyperbole.
Thank you,

I still dislike it being said at all, even as hyperbole.

Aside from being vampires with soul both in love with Buffy, they're completely different characters. And I assume Spike fans dislike the fact that it was said as much as Angel fans. What we tend to like in one is what the other lacks (in general).
 

Guy

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Thank you,

I still dislike it being said at all, even as hyperbole.

Aside from being vampires with soul both in love with Buffy, they're completely different characters. And I assume Spike fans dislike the fact that it was said as much as Angel fans. What we tend to like in one is what the other lacks (in general).
Well, Angel and Spike obviously have a lot of differences, but they also have a lot (A LOT!) of similiarities. They're both vampires with souls, they both like to wear long flowing coats, they're both british, they both have the same human name (Liam = short for William), they both have ridiculous hair with too much gel, both have opposite personalities to what they were like in their human days (The stoic Angel used to be a brash, headstrong, hedonistic person in his human days, and the headstrong, hedonistic Spike used to be a quiet, sensitive nerd in his human days), they both had complex romantic relationships with Buffy, etc...

And I'm a huge Spike fan, and I dislike Angel, and yet I have no problem with the comparison. :)
 

RomanticSoul

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Even if you consider Angel and Spike to be so similar as to be interchangeable, which I don't, the fact remains that Angel, himself, is not currently in any sort of relationship with either of the women with whom he is working, or anyone else, and he hasn't been in anything resembling one since his one night stand with Nina. Hence, the subject of the thread: Do you think that Angel should be in a relationship, or should he continue, for some unknown reason, to live like a monk? Since Angel left Sunnydale in Season 3, Buffy has had three lovers, so she obviously has moved on to some extent. Angel has not.
I don't see how Angel ever will have any relationship that doesn't end badly. Whedon and his Angel hate will just have the relationship go the same way it always does...disaster. Spike doesn't have to do anything but lurk around Buffy and is handed everything on a silver platter because the creative team caved in to fans long ago. Nothing about their story is honest because they lack the balls to just tell the story they want. Can't blame them I guess, once you get crazy death threats from Spike/Spuffy fans it's all over apparently. Angel just gets torn down over and over (read: massively character assassinated if need be) despite the fact that he is the one of the 2 vampires who has actually tried to forge his own life, purpose, mission, job, friends and family. And Whedon takes pleasure in tearing everything down that Angel builds for himself, not because it's interesting but because he hates the character. Spike has to do absolutely nothing but hang around and that's apparently enough to get everything handed to him. It's utterly disgusting that the guy who tries, over and over to make more of his life gets constantly punished. And the one who does nothing but hang around gets everything.

Of course the comics don't really say that Angel and Spike are the same person. Well, technically they do say it, but they obviously don't mean it literally. It was just hyperbole.
Might be hyperbole for you but Buffy said it. She fell in love with the same guy twice. So that's apparently how she feels about the situation. While the reader might see it as hyperbole doesn't mean the character does.
 

Guy

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Might be hyperbole for you but Buffy said it. She fell in love with the same guy twice. So that's apparently how she feels about the situation. While the reader might see it as hyperbole doesn't mean the character does.
The exact quote Buffy says is: "I literally fell in love with the same guy twice?" Note the question mark. After that, Spike says "Wait, Dru too? I shagged myself?", which makes it clear that Buffy's previous statement is ridiculous. And then Giles comes in with the explanation, saying that it's just a matter of influence, and that they're not the same person or anything like that. And after that, the matter is concluded and the scoobies turn to discussing the other matter at hand. Obviously, Buffy doesn't follow that by saying something like "I no longer believe that Angel and Spike are the same person" (because that would be extremely heavy-handed and awkward), but it's still pretty clear that she doesn't believe that Angel and Spike are the same person.
 
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