• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

After re watching series i have found Willow to be in very negative light between season 3-7.

Benz

Potential
Joined
Jul 25, 2016
Messages
193
Age
29
I like Willow character and i know no character or person alive is perfect but however i definitely noticed Willow more in negative light many times form 3 til season 7.

Season 3
She didit care about on what Buffy went though at end season 2 with having to kill her boyfriend just when got his soul back and Kendra death and being expelled and her mum kicking her out although Joyce really truly did not mean it and was heat of moment type thing and regretted saying it right away and all happen in one night happen to Buffy and send anyone over edge .


She wanted to swing two boys along and when she had opportunity to just be with Xander she decided she wanted be with Oz and then she acting so childish by crying her eyes out and when she found out Xander slept with Faith and she acting like jealous 10 year old child when Buffy hang out with Faith for day and cant Buffy have more then one friend.

Season 4
Already said my feelings on Willow in season 4 forum this in season forum -

But i add new thing -When Oz had sleep with Verruca to make sure she would not kill anyone and all Willow could do was be hypercritical once again and say this does not compare with what happen with me and Xander.



Season 5

Most of season she was alright until time that Joyce died and Dawn wanted bring back her mum to life and Tara once again being more mature one very filmy told Dawn we dont w mess with left and death and next day Dawn might seem very understandably upset but however next day Willow show Dan book to that could help her and Dawn spent whole day stealing and messy with dark magic and could gotten Dawn killed and Willow seemed more worried about being found out that she gave Dawn book and not showing much concern that Dawn could be killed.

When Tara who voice her concern on magic and all Willow could make about and not stop to think what Tara went thought with her mum being evil witch.

Willow made matters worse with Glory and made Glory more sir up and came after them at worst possible time.

Season 6

Not talking to Giles first about if Buffy is in hell-dimension and when Giles warn her firmly all she did was threaten Giles.

Willow did not exactly make Buffy life anymore easier no mention on her helping with money or disciplining Dawn and trying to at least try help Buffy with her depression that didit involved magic or try help Dawn who really was desperate for tension and discipline and yes technicality it was up to Buffy but still Willow i think Willow could done better job at helping Buffy and Willow.

Willow mess with Tara mind twice and infact she gotten all her friends killed in Tabula Russ when she try to mess with Buffy and Tara and backfired and all lost there memory and could all be killed.

Willow messy around with Amy and turning innocent person into things at Bronze and in next episode she could gotten Dawn killed in car crash.

Season 7

I found very poor taste of Willow joking we can kill Anya.

I found very hypocritical of Willow to chess Andrew.


Well and truly Willow become just as rouge as Faith did.

Just needed to get this thoughts and feeling out as really did realise Willow was centrality was not sweet and innocent person people thought she was.
 
Last edited:

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,152
Location
Canada
Sineya
The end of Season 6 where she almost ended the world and was only stopped when she saw she was hurting Xander is one place she almost accomplished what Acathla failed to do in Season 2.

I used to think Willow was a geek but otherwise OK but this was one of the first things I was convinced about on this forum - Willow was dangerous at times and hypocritical most of the time. I still like Willow as a character but in real life? No thanks.
 

Puppet

Actual size.
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
7,230
Age
32
Location
Denmark
Black Thorn
It's funny, I'm on a rewatch myself currently (through full-length reactions) and I'm learning how much I don't like Buffy and thinks she is super annoying; I'm currently in the beginning of S3.

I agree with most of your points, though I've never been a huge Willow fan anyway.

EDIT: Yes, I've never hid my dislike of Buffy, but it's getting worse!
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
491
Age
63
I like Willow overall but I think it makes sense that with all that power she’d become a less nice person. She’s had a major ego boost which is hard to handle for such an insecure person

I think s3 she has the most dickish moments

Dead Mans Party - ‘I know you had to kill your boyfriend but I didn’t have anyone to talk to about the boyfriend I’d had for months too!’ ‘I know you were suspected of murdering the one person who understood about being a slayer but I’ve been trying spells and I had nobody to tatalk to!’ . I find it bizarre how the lesson of this episode is Buffy taking full blame, I hate passive aggressiveness

Bad Girls/Consequences - Willow had already told the new girl Buffy’s most painful history and not only that but had clearly downplayed it to Faith, Willow tells Buffy she really does need to ‘find the fun’. For the first half of this season there’s a feel of Buffy kind of being in the edges of the scoobies because she’s not part of the ‘double date group’ . Then when Buffy bonds with said new girl Willow gets the major hump, Bad Girls is over the course of what 2/3 days? It’s not like willow’s been left out for months but Willow seems to think ‘erm no you have to give me my slayer back now she’s fun again’
 

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
910
Location
East of Trouble
I like Willow a lot but she is a rule breaker with borderline sociopathic tendencies from season one.

Rules don't apply to her. She breaks laws and rules when it suits her (breaking into government computers is probably a felony, even then).

She had done it BEFORE she met Buffy. Because she could. She is vindictive (to Cordy and co who kind of deserve it) she is extremely wilful. See her behaviour with "Malcolm" - notice who is else attracted to Malcolm/Moloch.

I think Willow has that combo of low self esteem and high arrogance a lot of very smart introverts have. She thinks she is right because she is smarter than others.

We see this attitude writ large when Giles confronts her about misuse of magic. Her answer? That he should watch out because she was powerful. This is not a new attitude, just the first time she is the most powerful being in the room.

She lacks true empathy for ANY others. She is like lots of narcissists. She takes ownership of those she considers 'hers'. It looks like love - until that person's will does not align with hers.

Tara was robbed of sanity and agency, and still it did not occur to Willow that mind wiping her repeatedly was wrong. In TR she recklessly does it to everyone.

She never worries about consequences.

Rules of magic? Yes Giles should have taught her, but i would bet every magic book would have cautioned her of the rules. She even led Dawn astray. She played games with people's lives with Amy, even knowing Amy's mom and Amy's own magic mistakes.

She is: Reckless. Selfish. Wilful. Unrepentant. Lacking in empathy. Whiny. Judgmental.

And when she goes off the rails? No, she is not truly apologetic. She tries to buy people off with cookies.

After killing probably two people (remember Rack?) She feels sorry for herself and afraid of her magic but empathy for destroying Anya's shop? Not present.

She is whiny and too embarrassed to be seen. It is ALL ABOUT HER. She is afraid of herself, not penitent-and thus makes her pretty useless a lot of season 7.

She judges Buffy for Spike, but Oz could have infected any of them. He knew he was dangerous and worried about it. She was so busy being about herself she let him get loose. Because she would not listen.

I think Willow is dangerous from day one; then she gets power.
 
Reason: Errors
Last edited:

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,145
Age
32
You realise when you say that you've found Willow in a negative light, you are saying that your impression of her is skewed ... by the negative light ... which it totally is, though I think it may be the eyes that see and not the light that's the problem.

Like, the idea that she strung (not swung) Xander along, that she couldn't handle Buffy and Faith being friends or that she cared less than Buffy about Tara's death ... I mean, who was in the library being attacked alongside Kendra and who skipped town before Willow recovered from her injurires?
 

Kratos

Scooby
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
704
Location
Republic of Ireland
I finished rewatching the series recently and I still really like Willow. Maybe because I see bits of my teen self in her. Just not as much as I did when I was younger.
 

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
910
Location
East of Trouble
I finished rewatching the series recently and I still really like Willow. Maybe because I see bits of my teen self in her. Just not as much as I did when I was younger.
I see myself in her too. I still like her, but she does not grow up.

You realise when you say that you've found Willow in a negative light, you are saying that your impression of her is skewed ... by the negative light ... which it totally is, though I think it may be the eyes that see and not the light that's the problem.

Like, the idea that she strung (not swung) Xander along, that she couldn't handle Buffy and Faith being friends or that she cared less than Buffy about Tara's death ... I mean, who was in the library being attacked alongside Kendra and who skipped town before Willow recovered from her injurires?
I think it is possible to see her flaws without hatred. I see a lot of me in her, but she never grows up. I tried to.

I don't think she strung Xander along at all, though she did hurt Oz and permanently weaken their relationship. I think Xander was a childhood dream that suddenly seemed possible. That and probably her confusion about her sexuality may have made her connection with Xander very reassuring and tempting.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
She's just 22 in "Chosen" :p She's got time.

HowiMetdaSlayer

Occasionally, I am callous and strange 🐶
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
5,345
Location
midwest
@everyone don't diss my girl! 😡 Willow's my favorite character (obviously). I like that she's complicated. Willow has the best character arc in the series. Plus the writing in general in seasons 6 and 7 was kind of bad. Also Whedon was no longer show runner for those final seasons. So I'd take that into consideration. 😏
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
642
Age
35
Location
England
I despise Willow. Yes she's only 22 by 'Chosen' ... she's also a murderer and rapist by 'Chosen'. She is never made to deal with that in the show, not in any meaningful way, and it is not like she suddenly went off the rails - her lust for vengeance, lack of empathy and her attempts to fix people to suit her needs and punish anyone who doesn't align with her goes all the way back to season one. This is who she is - a fundamental part of her character- she's unlikely to grow up out of a fundamental part of her character. And even if she does ... she's still a murderer and a rapist. That is never ever going away.

But in the episode where she is forced to face what she did with any kind of consequence (The Killer in Me) Amy is portrayed as the bad guy whilst Willow is the suffering hero and gets tea, sympathy and kisses from Kennedy. Talk about gaslighting the audience!
 

Athene

Scooby
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
2,523
Age
20
Sineya
It's just a huge part of Willow's character that she's insecure and that did make her unbearable at points to me and at one point I really hated her character. Now I appreciate Willow for what she is and it's quite satisfying to see how she turns out by season 7. Now she does make top 10 for me. She does do the crash and burn thing even if what she did isn't treated as seriously by the scoobies she was punished in a sense for what she did.
 

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
910
Location
East of Trouble
I despise Willow. Yes she's only 22 by 'Chosen' ... she's also a murderer and rapist by 'Chosen'. She is never made to deal with that in the show, not in any meaningful way, and it is not like she suddenly went off the rails - her lust for vengeance, lack of empathy and her attempts to fix people to suit her needs and punish anyone who doesn't align with her goes all the way back to season one. This is who she is - a fundamental part of her character- she's unlikely to grow up out of a fundamental part of her character. And even if she does ... she's still a murderer and a rapist. That is never ever going away.

But in the episode where she is forced to face what she did with any kind of consequence (The Killer in Me) Amy is portrayed as the bad guy whilst Willow is the suffering hero and gets tea, sympathy and kisses from Kennedy. Talk about gaslighting the audience!
I don't go quite as far as despising her, but what she did to Tara is hard to stomach. Frankly, i have less of an issue with Warren. He deserved what he got.

The only reason I DON'T hate Willow for mind raping Tara is that I don't believe she was fully in her right mind. I don't think she meant to hurt her - but it was a selfish act. And during the rest of the series she never gets that self awareness. That is what I have issues with.
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
642
Age
35
Location
England
Frankly, i have less of an issue with Warren. He deserved what he got.
Coming from a country without the death penalty - I don't think he deserved what he got. Murderers get jail. They don't get torture and they don't get their own murder sanctioned by the state or the public - or in this case, the viewers, no matter how awful what they did was. Warren did not deserve to be flayed alive - because no one deserves that. It's vengeance not justice and has no place in a civilised society. But Willow is very vengeance orientated - hence why D'Hoffryn keeps trying to get her to work for him.

The only reason I DON'T hate Willow for mind raping Tara is that I don't believe she was fully in her right mind. I don't think she meant to hurt her
It's not just that she mind rapes her (although she does - and that is truly terrible). She is using this altered mind state to sleep with her as well (as seen in OMWF). So she rape rapes her too - if we renamed Lethe's Bramble 'rohypnol' it would be very clear what she was doing. Because that is precisely what she is doing. Magic or chemical - makes no difference, altering someone's mental state so they sleep with you is the same act no matter what substance you use. And no - she doesn't mean to hurt her - that's part of what makes her so despicable and so terrifying. She simply doesn't consider anybody's feelings but her own, not even the feelings of people she loves. If what someone else wants - no matter how important that person is to her - does not align precisely with what she wants, then she will disregard it totally and 'fix' them so they do things her own way. And if they dare argue back, she gets downright nasty.

I don't believe she's not in her right mind at this point, this is the mindset she always had. Back in s3 she was going to use magic for a delusting spell without telling Xander, then when Oz told her he wanted space she refused to give it to him and accosted him at school in order to get him to forgive her. The difference between s6 and s3 Willow is that she now has the power to make people do as she wants them to do, but her actions - at their core - are exactly the same. If s3 Willow could have made Oz forget he was hurt and angry with her, she would have done it - and she wouldn't have for a moment stopped to consider it was wrong or realise it was unfair. Utterly terrifying.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
I go back and forth. Adducts can do some horrendous stuff, OTOH, she always was wilful and lacks self insight. Not a good combo.

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,145
Age
32
So she rape rapes her too - if we renamed Lethe's Bramble 'rohypnol' it would be very clear what she was doing. Because that is precisely what she is doing.
Lethe's bramble does not work like rohypnol. As I am sure you know, rohypnol is a hypnotic drug most often used to cure insomnia.

The comparison to drugs doesn't hold. Willow is commiting a crime that no one has ever done, because nobody else can cast this kind of magic. People who use rohypnol know what they are doing, because they've learned the trick from other rapists. Willow would not be able to imagine that someone could construe her actions are rape. Sex isn't eve on her mind when she casts the spell.
I've long said that Warren is Willow without the support group. It's even reflected in their name. Same amount of letters, same starting letter, same double consonants at the 3rd letter.
Warren doesn't have a support group, because he terrorises his only friends.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Sorry, she had sex with someone incapable of meaningful consent. That is rape.
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
642
Age
35
Location
England
Sorry - but gotta disagree - you can't hide behind 'it's not a comparable crime ' because she is using magic to do it and magic does not exist in the real world. Otherwise nothing that happens in a fantasy world would have real world parallels and these boards would shrivel up and die because there would be nothing to talk about. And you can't honestly claim that a comparison to drugs doesn't hold when this whole story line is a metaphor for drugs! It doesn't act the same no. (Although I would argue that rohypnol having another use not predominantly linked to rape, but can also be used to rape actually makes it more like Lethe's Bramble - not less.) But it is a substance that alters someones mind, lowers their inhibitions and makes someone easier to manipulate. So what if she's the first person to do it? Was the first person to use rohypnol not a rapist because they hadn't learned about it from other rapists? The first person to have a particular criminal idea and act on it is not not a criminal because they are also a trailblazer.

She knows exactly what she's doing and she casts that spell over and over again, keeping in her bedroom for her own convenience, and even continues once Tara has told her not to. The fact that she does not realise she is wrong to do so is no defence of her as a character - it shows how utterly reprehensible and without empathy she is that she thinks its OK to manipulate someone and their mind and remove their freewill like that. It shows her arrogance that thinks she has a right to alter people this way, and not stop to consider the morality behind it - because other people's feelings and opinions and rights do not matter to her. It shows how ruthlessly self serving she is in getting what she wants that she doesn't bother to think about the implications. Her mind might not be on sex when she does the spell but, by removing Tara's freewill and manipulating her memories, that has consequences that reach into every aspect of their relationship. That she doesn't even consider this is not a defence of her, it is proof she has no business being in a relationship because she is not capable of basic respect and decency towards her partners.

The fact that Willow does not consider herself a rapist does not stop her being one. It is what is done to Tara that matters, not what Willow thinks about it or why she is doing it. Regardless of what Willow thinks she is doing, Tara is raped in mind and body by the person who claims to love her.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Roofie is roofie.

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
910
Location
East of Trouble
Coming from a country without the death penalty - I don't think he deserved what he got. Murderers get jail. They don't get torture and they don't get their own murder sanctioned by the state or the public - or in this case, the viewers, no matter how awful what they did was. Warren did not deserve to be flayed alive - because no one deserves that. It's vengeance not justice and has no place in a civilised society. But Willow is very vengeance orientated - hence why D'Hoffryn keeps trying to get her to work for him.



It's not just that she mind rapes her (although she does - and that is truly terrible). She is using this altered mind state to sleep with her as well (as seen in OMWF). So she rape rapes her too - if we renamed Lethe's Bramble 'rohypnol' it would be very clear what she was doing. Because that is precisely what she is doing. Magic or chemical - makes no difference, altering someone's mental state so they sleep with you is the same act no matter what substance you use. And no - she doesn't mean to hurt her - that's part of what makes her so despicable and so terrifying. She simply doesn't consider anybody's feelings but her own, not even the feelings of people she loves. If what someone else wants - no matter how important that person is to her - does not align precisely with what she wants, then she will disregard it totally and 'fix' them so they do things her own way. And if they dare argue back, she gets downright nasty.

I don't believe she's not in her right mind at this point, this is the mindset she always had. Back in s3 she was going to use magic for a delusting spell without telling Xander, then when Oz told her he wanted space she refused to give it to him and accosted him at school in order to get him to forgive her. The difference between s6 and s3 Willow is that she now has the power to make people do as she wants them to do, but her actions - at their core - are exactly the same. If s3 Willow could have made Oz forget he was hurt and angry with her, she would have done it - and she wouldn't have for a moment stopped to consider it was wrong or realise it was unfair. Utterly terrifying.
I don't think you can stop an unrepentant magic user with Warren's skill set with prison. No prison could hold him unless it was Azkaban, which does not exist in the Buffyverse.

Killing him seems to be the only way to stop him. Not sure about anyone else stopping him either.

Your points about Willow do have merit, however. She did not have to face herself the way Spike did. He saw his evil and he faced it. Willow learned control but never truly faced herself.
 
Priceless
Priceless
The Initiative held Ethan, so I think the technology is out there.

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
491
Age
63
I don't think you can stop an unrepentant magic user with Warren's skill set with prison. No prison could hold him unless it was Azkaban, which does not exist in the Buffyverse.

Killing him seems to be the only way to stop him. Not sure about anyone else stopping him either.

Your points about Willow do have merit, however. She did not have to face herself the way Spike did. He saw his evil and he faced it. Willow learned control but never truly faced herself.
How could prison not hold Warren? He doesn’t seem to be a particular magic user he’s more of a robots and toys guy. Andrew and Jonathan seemed like bigger magic users
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,145
Age
32
@Myheadsgonenumb

I didn't say it wasn't rape. I said it wasn't rohypnol. Tara retains the full function of all her faculties after the Willow casts the spell. You're just ruining the conversation by saying it is exactly like rohypnol.

Warren's cognitive dampener is much more similar to rohypnol or other drugs, as it induces a temporary state where the victim is pliable and defenceless.
 
Top Bottom