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After re watching series i have found Willow to be in very negative light between season 3-7.
- Thread starter Benz
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DeadlyDuo
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I don't think Willow raped Tara. She was not mind controlling Tara, she took away one single memory. Tara was still able to make decisions and function autonomously hence why she got angry with Willow. Dawn mentioning the fight seemed like it kind of brought the memory back and then when Tara looked up the bramble, it confirmed what she suspected. It was certainly a violation of Tara's trust and she even sang that she wished she could trust it was just the once but she can't.
At no point was Tara at Willow's mercy, this wasn't a Katrina situation.
At no point was Tara at Willow's mercy, this wasn't a Katrina situation.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
Tara was angry with her. Then right after, she went to bed with her because the anger and reason had been erased. And she did it more than once.
Someone who would not have consented suddenly forgets something serious enough NOT to consent.
If someone erased the memory of cheating (for example) so i slept with them, i would feel violated.
Someone who would not have consented suddenly forgets something serious enough NOT to consent.
If someone erased the memory of cheating (for example) so i slept with them, i would feel violated.
DeadlyDuo
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How do you know that Willow and Tara had sex immediately after Willow cast the spell and didn't just snuggle down together and go to sleep?
Tara felt like Willow had betrayed her trust, especially after what happened with Glory, and that she couldn't trust that Willow hadn't erased her mind before.
I still wouldn't count it a rape because Willow was not controlling Tara in any way. The spell took away the one memory but Tara was still fully capable of making decisions.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
If no means no, violating that is rape. If someone is INCAPABLE of meaningful consent, that means you took something without permission. When you take someone's body without their permission, that is rape. For a long time i did not want to receive this because I love Willow. This is the mistake people make who defend their child who has raped someone, especially if it is not "forcible" rape. Willow did not do forcible rape. It was still sex with no real consent.
When i was a child i said yes to a 26 year old man. I blamed myself for decades. It destroyed my future. I am nearly 60 and it still is with me. It took me nearly 30 years to use the R word. Would my life have flowered if it had not occurred and I had not called myself the W word and married an abuser thinking that was the best I deserved? Or if I had called it rape then and confronted him? I believe it would have.
Peace,
Blue
PS i was not drunk. I too said yes. It was rape.
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Once might be bad judgment, but she did it repeatedly. We see how dangerous it is when she does it to everyone.
When i was a child i said yes to a 26 year old man. I blamed myself for decades. It destroyed my future. I am nearly 60 and it still is with me. It took me nearly 30 years to use the R word. Would my life have flowered if it had not occurred and I had not called myself the W word and married an abuser thinking that was the best I deserved? Or if I had called it rape then and confronted him? I believe it would have.
Peace,
Blue
PS i was not drunk. I too said yes. It was rape.
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Define control. If you alter reality, you control reality.
Once might be bad judgment, but she did it repeatedly. We see how dangerous it is when she does it to everyone.
Last edited:
thrasherpix
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I was once into philosophy and I cannot answer if what Willow did was rape by deception or not in a way that fully satisfies me, though I've thought about it now off and on since this thread got started.
I was cheated on badly by a past lover, and as hurt and upset I was to learn of this, and we would not be having sex if I'd known. I still don't consider that rape by deception, though it's terrible behavior that left me with emotional scars.
But what if instead of hiding the fact until I found out, if the memory had instead been erased from my mind with the same outcome? I'm not sure, but I will say with certainty that I'd consider it a much greater violation, as rather than merely being deceived, a part of me was deleted for someone else's convenience. In addition to showcasing Willow's growing hubris (so similar to Faith that took her down one dark path), it would make me question my entire reality, and perhaps even my own identity (something Tara was already vulnerable to given her family background). What else was deleted that I didn't know about? What memories and feelings do I have that are false? Just how far and how often did it happen? (I wouldn't have the comfort of being a viewer who knew from watching my life on a TV show.) It would be the ultimate in gaslighting that and could threaten my sanity (in addition to whatever other side effects such magical tampering had).
Is it rape by deception? I don't know. But I do know it's far worse than regular deception and may arguably be more damaging than rape itself even without that aspect.
I was cheated on badly by a past lover, and as hurt and upset I was to learn of this, and we would not be having sex if I'd known. I still don't consider that rape by deception, though it's terrible behavior that left me with emotional scars.
But what if instead of hiding the fact until I found out, if the memory had instead been erased from my mind with the same outcome? I'm not sure, but I will say with certainty that I'd consider it a much greater violation, as rather than merely being deceived, a part of me was deleted for someone else's convenience. In addition to showcasing Willow's growing hubris (so similar to Faith that took her down one dark path), it would make me question my entire reality, and perhaps even my own identity (something Tara was already vulnerable to given her family background). What else was deleted that I didn't know about? What memories and feelings do I have that are false? Just how far and how often did it happen? (I wouldn't have the comfort of being a viewer who knew from watching my life on a TV show.) It would be the ultimate in gaslighting that and could threaten my sanity (in addition to whatever other side effects such magical tampering had).
Is it rape by deception? I don't know. But I do know it's far worse than regular deception and may arguably be more damaging than rape itself even without that aspect.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
It is not rape by deception, though there was deception. After Glory stole her mind, her own girlfriend, her lover, her trusted life partner STOLE HER REALITY, took away her memories, altered her mind. It is much closer to drugging her than it is to cheating. Her behaviour is more analagous to this: if i found out my partner had cheated and I was angry and she gave me roofies (which inhibits formation of memories) then after this she carried on as normal, including sex.
It was a VILE thing to do to anyone, most especially an abuse survivor, who was also someone who had just recovered from major brain function issues. That was only months in the past.
The ONLY mitigating factor is that like a drunk who hurts or kills someone (which Willow also eventually does) she has diminished capacity - even though she chose to open herself to black magic, it got way out of her control.
Like a drunk after a DUI, she is still accountable for consequences, however. She still caused harm to everyone in her life, even before her spectacular nuclear core meltdown.
Like some addicts, she gets clean, but she never does make true amends. She clearly was not happy to be caught and to lose Tara, but not enough to stay quit or acknowledge the harm of her action. She is more concerned to get her friends to let her back in than to truly make amends.
The moment Tara dies she abandons all pretense of trying to control her magic. She NEVER really looks at herself even after her meltdown, though she realizes she is out of control. She feels sorry for herself and scared of her own power.
If she had seemed truly repentant, I would be more inclined to cut her slack. But at no point did she truly regret her behaviour. Even after she came back from England, it was about her and how she felt - shame and fear until she vanishes herself, but that is not true regret for the hurt caused. That is self-pity and self-centered fear.
Like when she brings buffy back, she is arrogant and does what she thinks is "best". She moves people like pawns.
It was a VILE thing to do to anyone, most especially an abuse survivor, who was also someone who had just recovered from major brain function issues. That was only months in the past.
The ONLY mitigating factor is that like a drunk who hurts or kills someone (which Willow also eventually does) she has diminished capacity - even though she chose to open herself to black magic, it got way out of her control.
Like a drunk after a DUI, she is still accountable for consequences, however. She still caused harm to everyone in her life, even before her spectacular nuclear core meltdown.
Like some addicts, she gets clean, but she never does make true amends. She clearly was not happy to be caught and to lose Tara, but not enough to stay quit or acknowledge the harm of her action. She is more concerned to get her friends to let her back in than to truly make amends.
The moment Tara dies she abandons all pretense of trying to control her magic. She NEVER really looks at herself even after her meltdown, though she realizes she is out of control. She feels sorry for herself and scared of her own power.
If she had seemed truly repentant, I would be more inclined to cut her slack. But at no point did she truly regret her behaviour. Even after she came back from England, it was about her and how she felt - shame and fear until she vanishes herself, but that is not true regret for the hurt caused. That is self-pity and self-centered fear.
Like when she brings buffy back, she is arrogant and does what she thinks is "best". She moves people like pawns.
It is no secret that Willow isn’t my fave. However, while s1-2 Willow is more easily likeable than s3-7 Willow, she couldn’t continue as she was. She was likeable because she was so guileless and sweet, but that would have gotten stale very fast if it had continued in s3 and on. They needed to evolve Willow and let her grow. To let her shed that young girl-persona.
For all the problems I have with her actions, I do think it is good writing that is organic with where she came from.
She didn’t remain sweet and innocent, but who does? She was less likeable to me later, but a more compelling and complex character for it.
For all the problems I have with her actions, I do think it is good writing that is organic with where she came from.
She didn’t remain sweet and innocent, but who does? She was less likeable to me later, but a more compelling and complex character for it.
AstridDante
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I think in earlier seasons she might have felt insecure being best friend with slayer and just felt quite “un-special” even though this was not true. Once she discovered she had a gift for magic she felt this made her special in her own way. Then in Season 6 the more she got involved in magic she became quite manipulative and power hungry and arrogant (thinking the scene with Giles and scenes with Tara). Tabula Rasa was really a low point for her. I also think bringing Buffy back from the dead even if it was something they all wanted was almost to prove she was powerful enough to do it. I also thinking about villains/grave and ‘dark Willow’ was some of the things she said to her friends, the bitterness was that what she really thought on some level or just the dark magics as talking. In some ways in earlier seasons she was so overly nice I felt she probably wouldn’t say how she really felt and she didn’t assert herself so some of this came pouring out in later seasons. Saying all this beyond going off the rails I think somewhere underneath there was still the kind sweet girl who could be a great friend. She just really lost her way and in a lot of ways it was a case of power corrupts