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An abusive reckoning for "Buffy," a badass, occasionally feminist show

thetopher

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Sineya
Whedon will be accused of being homophobic next because both Larry and Tara got killed off.
He also made Willow more unlikable as the show went on and she changed her sexuality, clearly an agenda there. Not only that but he shoe-horned in two really annoying gay characters in the final season; Kennedy and Andrew. That just proves even more that he was homophobic; he killed off the wrong ones to secretly promote vile gay-hate.
I mean, maybe he did that. Honestly I'm just wildly speculating with no real evidence. 'Tis the season.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
He also made Willow more unlikable as the show went on and she changed her sexuality, clearly an agenda there. Not only that but he shoe-horned in two really annoying gay characters in the final season; Kennedy and Andrew. That just proves even more that he was homophobic; he killed off the wrong ones to secretly promote vile gay-hate.
I mean, maybe he did that. Honestly I'm just wildly speculating with no real evidence. 'Tis the season.
Okay. Now I know you are taking the piss when you call Kennedy annoying. Otherwise I'd be like grrr if you were being serious.
 

Mr Trick

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I think politics should be left out of this discussion. Like Taake said a lot these articles seem to be clickbait and are driven by getting attention and striking while the iron's hot. I don't follow this idea that its the left wing attacking him considering many people probably would assume that Whedon himself was left wing. I think there's probably plenty on both sides sharpening their knives. Its all getting a bit silly and people need to take a step back and chill out. It's not doing anything to help the real victims.

Another thing to add about the content of Buffy is that any show which is over twenty years old would have certain things which date it or you can pick a part. I don't think its so much about Whedon not being a feminist writer or the show not being feminist, more to do with it viewed through a 2021 lens. That's why there's a place for a Buffy reboot because it can update certain things.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Sometimes if question if the term “Snowflakes” has any real use in discourse. Then I read articles like this.
 

TriBel

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I don't think its so much about Whedon not being a feminist writer or the show not being feminist, more to do with it viewed through a 2021 lens. That's why there's a place for a Buffy reboot because it can update certain things.
I've been thinking about its age a lot recently because I been thinking of it from the perspective of being full-on postmodernist metafiction (from S5 onward). At the time BtVS came out I was completely immersed in postmodernism - but not BtVS. Yeah I watched it but not through a critical lens. Having to adopt an analytical framework I haven't fully utilised for over 20 years was...strange. It really dated the show but at the same time I'm thinking "wow...that's clever...that completely undermines...". I'm sure most of these critics are missing this level. We've become so accustomed to certain postmodern devices - such as breaking the 4th wall - that we've become blase about it. For instance, in the basement scene between Spike and Faith in Dirty Girls I'm pretty sure they remove the 4th wall entirely so what should be naturalised as Spike's gaze is literally the camera's. This impacts the way the scene can be viewed. What Buffy thinks is "dirty talk" is literally a dirty shot-reverse-shot...in an episode called Dirty Girls. If I'm right (and I'm pretty useless with identifying practical elements of film) it's making a significant comment about the construction of reality. Particularly since it highlights the "Social Construction of Reality" and the fact "social phenomena don't have unproblematic objective existences. They have to be interpreted and given meanings by those who encounter them" in Life Serial.
 
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LeeJones41

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Why is it all of these articles seem to view Buffy in an incredibly shallow way?

The rape scene seems totally out of character and to come out of nowhere, though Whedon stated his reasoning was to remind viewers that Spike is a vampire and therefore "soulless." What's the easiest way to do that? Have a sympathetic male character suddenly rape.

Did this person watch S6 at all? We have almost an entire season of Spike refusing to take no for an answer. It wasn’t remotely OOC

What does Spike being a vampire has to do with his ability to attempt rape? That is so ridiculous. Buffy tried to rape Spike in "Gone". She is not a vampire. Worse, writer David Fury turned this incident into comic relief and eventually consensual sex. That was disturbing. Willow used magic to erase Tara's memory of a fight before using this to have sex with her. Rape. Willow is not a vampire. And I doubt that being a witch solely makes her capable of rape. I'm sorry, but Whedon's excuse that being a vampire makes Spike capable of committing rape is ridiculous. Spike was capable of trying to commit rape because he is a being with emotions and desires.
 
K
katmobile
It's a busted moral compass though if you're souless you can't understand a tortured soul like season six Buffy.

burrunjor

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wolfpuppy Doctor Who had regeneration as part of it's core lore for over fifty years, so I don't see how that someone who can change their whole body can also change gender doesn't make sense.

UGH I'm not going to derail this thread into a DW discussion, but I'd just like to say that I dislike this point greatly.

To start with since when did shapeshifter equal genderless? Is the Martian Manhunter genderless? Mystique from the X-Men? Mr Fantastic? Plastic Man? Hell even the Vamps in Buffy shapeshift to an extent.

Regeneration was always just meant to be an advanced form of healing. A time lords body broke down and then it repaired itself, but in the process it changed. IE it rebuilt itself from scratch, hence why the process was called "Renewal".

All the Doctors were meant to be the same person, same core persona, same consciousness etc. There were limits to how different you could make him.

Now a sex change adds a whole new dimension to the Doctors persona. It jars from the 13 men who came from before. It's harder to imagine that it's still William Hartnell's mind in say Jodie Whittakers body. There are only two ways you can do it. Have the Doctor want to change sex, which doesn't make any sense when he never wanted too, or have the female Doctor be as genderless as possible in which case what is the point?

Why not just go for a guy who will be a better fit?
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
Hopefully they'll revert back to a male Doctor, assuming the show isn't cancelled due to poor ratings and fan backlash, I wouldn't say its survival is a certainty.
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
The Doctor should always be male and British. Period.

burrunjor

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What does Spike being a vampire has to do with his ability to attempt rape? That is so ridiculous. Buffy tried to rape Spike in "Gone". She is not a vampire. Worse, writer David Fury turned this incident into comic relief and eventually consensual sex. That was disturbing. Willow used magic to erase Tara's memory of a fight before using this to have sex with her. Rape. Willow is not a vampire. And I doubt that being a witch solely makes her capable of rape. I'm sorry, but Whedon's excuse that being a vampire makes Spike capable of committing rape is ridiculous. Spike was capable of trying to commit rape because he is a being with emotions and desires.
I don't think so.

Vampires lack empathy. In the Buffyverse it is clearly said that a persons ability to feel empathy comes from their soul. Hence the little boy in Angel who tries to murder his sister because she gets more marshmallows than he does, or even the Buffster herself when she loses her soul and becomes more violent and irrational.

Vampires meanwhile not only lack a soul, but have a Demon inside them that influences them to do violent things. With this in mind of course Spike would casually do something like that without even realizing it was wrong, never mind when he is hyped up and angry and desperate like he was.
 

Dora

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I don't think so.

Vampires lack empathy. In the Buffyverse it is clearly said that a persons ability to feel empathy comes from their soul. Hence the little boy in Angel who tries to murder his sister because she gets more marshmallows than he does, or even the Buffster herself when she loses her soul and becomes more violent and irrational.

Vampires meanwhile not only lack a soul, but have a Demon inside them that influences them to do violent things. With this in mind of course Spike would casually do something like that without even realizing it was wrong, never mind when he is hyped up and angry and desperate like he was.
Spike is the demon, Spike has been confused since the chip was fitted , Buffy has said no many times before, yet has never psychically tried to stop him before , there was no change in Spike the change came from Buffy and Riley's talk giving Buffy the mental strength firstly to apologizes and end it with Spike then to actually stop Spike , Buffy says because I stopped you like I should have done long ago , Spike at the Basin remembers all the times Buffy had said no but he was able to manipulated her to get what he wanted, Spike is horrified with himself and his previous actions because to him in his sick way he loves her
 

katmobile

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Spike is the demon, Spike has been confused since the chip was fitted , Buffy has said no many times before, yet has never psychically tried to stop him before , there was no change in Spike the change came from Buffy and Riley's talk giving Buffy the mental strength firstly to apologizes and end it with Spike then to actually stop Spike , Buffy says because I stopped you like I should have done long ago , Spike at the Basin remembers all the times Buffy had said no but he was able to manipulated her to get what he wanted, Spike is horrified with himself and his previous actions because to him in his sick way he loves her
Wow! So are admitting that he does love her even if it is a sick way although to him shows that you perhaps you don't fully get it. It's why he changes. He can't understand at that stage why it's killing her to be involved with him because to do with a soul or conscience he doesn't possess.
 

nightshade

Your grandfather is a cat
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That's enough you two, we know you cannot agree, yet seem incapable of not replying to each.

Let's get back on topic
 

burrunjor

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Spike is the demon, Spike has been confused since the chip was fitted , Buffy has said no many times before, yet has never psychically tried to stop him before , there was no change in Spike the change came from Buffy and Riley's talk giving Buffy the mental strength firstly to apologizes and end it with Spike then to actually stop Spike , Buffy says because I stopped you like I should have done long ago , Spike at the Basin remembers all the times Buffy had said no but he was able to manipulated her to get what he wanted, Spike is horrified with himself and his previous actions because to him in his sick way he loves her
Well one last thing to say, I don't think Spike is the Demon.

As I have mentioned before I see souls, Vampires in the Buffyverse going like this.

Your mind, consciousness, thoughts etc come from your spirit. Your soul meanwhile is NOT your spirit. Your soul is simply a part of it. It's the part that gives you morality, allows you to feel empathy.

We can see this by the fact that Buffy has her soul removed and isn't rendered comatose, just becomes crazy. Similarly that boy in Angel has no soul and is just a socipath. However ghosts do exist as seen with Pavayne, James and even Buffy herself.

Also Angel's guilt over Angelus, Spike taking responsibility for his own crimes after Dana make 0 sense if the Demon and the person are separate. Indeed Spike winning his soul back makes 0 sense. He'd be technically killing himself.

For me it goes like this when you become a Vampire. You die, but your spirit remains trapped in your body. The soul meanwhile is ejected, but in its place, a horrible, vicious, animalistic Demon is placed. (The Vantal thing.)

This Demon then allows your body to live again, but it doesn't control it. It simply influences it, adds a killer instinct, and the person without any soul, feels no obligation to fight it, or any guilt for the horrors it makes them carry out.

Therefore, William, Spike and souled Spike are all the same guy, ditto Liam, Angelus and Angel. The only difference is, William, human with a soul, no urge for violence. Spike, Vampire with no soul, Demon that urges him to kill. S7 Spike, has a human soul and a Demon in him, both are fighting to influence him, which is why S7 Spike is afraid to fight at first as he is afraid that the Demon will overcome the soul, but he learns how to channel its bloodlust into fighitng, which is why Spike with a soul is still more violent than William.

(Same applies for Angel too. Angel with a soul is still more violent, can be more ruthless and even sadistic than Liam ever would, because the Demon is still influencing him, like when he kills Lindsey. That's clear sadistm on Angel's part LOL, having him get killed by a flunky and not even someone like Spike or Gunn, a brilliant fighter.)

TL DR? I see Vampires in Buffy as being like the Symbiotes in Spider-Man.

Anybody a Spidey fan here? In Spider-Man there are these horrible alien parasites that when they bond to people they suppress their empathy and compassion, and heighten their bloodlust and rage and anger, but they don't actually control them. They just influence them to it. That's what a Buffy Vampire is, but it's magical.

Another similarity between Vamps and Symbiotes is that they prefer people who are messed up in some way. Spike is an effective Vamp because he is a bullied, sensitive sort who has been rejected a lot as a man, who therefore has a lot of pent up aggression that the Vampire can exploit when he has no soul holding him back. Similarly Liam has a desire to prove himself after his dad told him he was a failure, and so the Demon influences him to be the most sadistic Vamp.

The Symbiotes do the same. They choose people like Cletus Kasady, a serial killer as a host, or even Peter Parker (Spider-Man himself) who though obviously a good guy, much like Spike has a lot of anger inside him due to being rejected, bullied, etc that the Symbiote can exploit such as in this hilarious memorable scene.


I see Spike as a Vampire as being like the black suited Spider-Man, only with less overacting LOL.
 
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burrunjor

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DeadlyDuo Hopefully they'll revert back to a male Doctor, assuming the show isn't cancelled due to poor ratings and fan backlash, I wouldn't say its survival is a certainty.

To be honest I think we're past that. The Timeless Child retcon is so destructive that I think New Who needs decanonised. I think the show needs rested and then brought back with a new 9th Doctor. They don't have to junk New Who completely though. Just have it that it takes place in an alternate universe with a similar history to the current one, but different in some places. (it would then be up to the viewer to decide which if any version takes place in the same reality as the original.) They could maybe even do a story where one of the new who Doctors crosses over into the current universe.

Personally though in this case I'd jettison Jodie from the New Who universe. Never mind the original, she lets down the revival as a show in its own right.

"EIIIIIIIII I FELL OUT ME TARDIS."
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Strictly as a non-fan, I wonder if they could fix it with an arc on alternative timelines where different Doctors survived, and now that the alternative timelines are bleeding together the Doctors are affected and multiple universes in peril...

katmobile

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DeadlyDuo Hopefully they'll revert back to a male Doctor, assuming the show isn't cancelled due to poor ratings and fan backlash, I wouldn't say its survival is a certainty.

To be honest I think we're past that. The Timeless Child retcon is so destructive that I think New Who needs decanonised. I think the show needs rested and then brought back with a new 9th Doctor. They don't have to junk New Who completely though. Just have it that it takes place in an alternate universe with a similar history to the current one, but different in some places. (it would then be up to the viewer to decide which if any version takes place in the same reality as the original.) They could maybe even do a story where one of the new who Doctors crosses over into the current universe.

Personally though in this case I'd jettison Jodie from the New Who universe. Never mind the original, she lets down the revival as a show in its own right.

"EIIIIIIIII I FELL OUT ME TARDIS."
From everything I've heard it's not a female doctor that's the issue but the showrunner not being the best. It's like the female Ghostbusters movie it wasn't good but it was less to do with the fem busters but just because it wasn't good. Getting a male doctor back won't fix Dr Who you want to replace the showrunner - he's not even that bad generally just wrong for Who.

There's a tendancy to blame everyone on SJWs for some folks and as with most things it's a gross oversimplification.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

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From everything I've heard it's not a female doctor that's the issue but the showrunner not being the best.
Jodie was rather dismissive of the fans as well. Unlike David Tennant, Matt Smith, and Peter Capaldi, who appreciated the role AND the fans.

Chris Chibnall ruined the show. He tried to re-mold it, but destroyed it instead. Wanker.

Just for fun:

 
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GreyWalker1958
GreyWalker1958
Him and Moffat buggered it to oblivion
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