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Andrew people's views on him in S7

ILLYRIAN

Druish Pervonian Wizard
Joined
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Toodyay
Black Thorn
I'd have thought the punishment was to the potentials for their being in the Buffy household, now if they had known what their future held they may have held him accountable for all and sundry. If only River had been a potential!
 

Dora

Scooby
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54
Why was he there ? , yes funny sometimes ,but unlike Spike who had / has a very large fan base including at the time JW and MN that kept him in the show , why was Andrew there ? he was part of the group that lead ultimately to Tara's murder , part of the trio that caused Buffy all sorts of problems in S6 , filming her , plotting against her, which lead to Buffy being shot and her possible death again, if not for Willow , he was all for raping Katrina, then was involved with her killing and then trying to frame Buffy , no he should have paid for his evil doing by dying , why kill Anya and not him ?
Unless your a Spike fan lots of both S6 and S7 should not have happened, Andrew was one of them
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,506
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39
Why was he there ? , yes funny sometimes ,but unlike Spike who had / has a very large fan base including at the time JW and MN that kept him in the show , why was Andrew there ? he was part of the group that lead ultimately to Tara's murder , part of the trio that caused Buffy all sorts of problems in S6 , filming her , plotting against her, which lead to Buffy being shot and her possible death again, if not for Willow , he was all for raping Katrina, then was involved with her killing and then trying to frame Buffy , no he should have paid for his evil doing by dying , why kill Anya and not him ?
Unless your a Spike fan lots of both S6 and S7 should not have happened, Andrew was one of them
How the hell did you manage to conflate Spike into a thread about Andrew ??. I know your obsessed about Spike but do you have to mention him ALL THE TIME
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
3,245
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Manchester
Why was he there ? , yes funny sometimes ,but unlike Spike who had / has a very large fan base including at the time JW and MN that kept him in the show , why was Andrew there ?
You can't reduce everything to fan bases. Sherlock Holmes had a large fan base, which is why Conan-Doyle felt pressured to bring him back from the dead. Manet had no (or a very tiny) fan base. Even the "French Artists Official Fan Club" didn't like him (I made that title up...aka The Salon). Didn't stop him heralding in Impressionism, which is now so ubiquitous it decorates chocolate boxes and tea caddies. Longevity and cultural impact isn't necessarily rooted in the number of people who like it.

Unless your a Spike fan lots of both S6 and S7 should not have happened
Yes, I know... we're all fickle girls turned on by Marsters naked chest (despite the fact that some of us might by gay). Read this:


It's a special issue of the European Journal of Cultural Studies : The Vampire Spike in Text and Fandom - Unsettling oppositions in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I'm guessing these academics aren't "fans" in the sense you mean (though, TBH, I think Wilcox has outed herself). You can only access the introduction but it summarises the other essays. From the intro:

"Not only does Spike express the marginality associated with the fictional vampire more generally (neither dead nor alive, a figure on the edges of humanity), he is an outcast in a fictional world that otherwise embraces marginal social identities, and in a show that speaks to and from the experience of outsiderdom. Shunned even by the Scoobies – themselves social outcasts – Spike suffers an extreme form of outsiderdom and marginality. This may partly explain the tremendous interest in this figure and the enormous fandom which surrounds him, for Spike’s character fully articulates that which makes Buffy the Vampire Slayer such a cult success – the experience of the outcast and the pain of liminality, of not belonging".

Marster's chest and forearms might constitute a lesser reason...I can't remember.

Ask yourself why Andrew is still there in S12. Moreover, absolutely central to the Watcher's Council "moving forward" (God knows to where since this was the final finale). It might have something to do with the relationship between liminality (or the margins) and the centre. I'm thinking Andrew might have the structure of the Torus...and be capitalism's acceptable face of otherness. IDK. I haven't had the patience to think it through.
 
Stake fodder
Stake fodder
Gah, why doesn't my library have this journal?!
Dogs of Winter
Dogs of Winter
While it may be more of an analogy (or something like that) than a direct comparison, it did make me laugh to see Manet's cultural resonance compared to Andrew

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
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Sep 11, 2017
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39
Re: Redemption; He feels genuine remorse for his actions, he was under the influence of a malevolent primal force, and he took up the cause of physical resistance to evil. Aside from turning himself over to MCB, or whatever, that's the best he can do, under the circumstances.

Why is Andrew?: Good question. His skill set was demon summoner, which is decent starting point. Unless you are a witch, you have to call demons and request a portion of their knowledge and power. The spirits refuse to talk to Willow after what she did to the Daemon of Osiris, and refuse to talk to Anya out of deference to to D'Hoffryn, but they are impressed enough by Andrew's wicked deeds to speak with him. And we find out, a whole host of the unclean have sided with the Senior Partners, where they can't openly oppose the First, but they kind of like the world as is. He can also try to go Shin Megami Tensi Persona, and summon and bind Demons as part of a failed attempt to create a new slayer. If they were thinking of something like that, I could see why they called him. Instead, quasi gay nerd.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
954
Location
France
My stance on Andrew in S7 is pretty much : I understand people's beef with him, but there are too many great things about him to make me agree. Namely, the two things that stand out are : 1) Tom Lenk's performance, which is simply delightful. I genuinely just enjoy watching him do his stuff, he's brilliant and 2) the entire meta commentary surrounding the character. I love the idea of a character in a story developing having such a strong (and warped) sense of narrative, and how he manipulates it, and the ramifications of that, and how it reflects both the writers and the fans. It's insanely good, imo.
 

Dogs of Winter

Potential
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Messages
157
Age
47
I have mixed feelings on Andrew. He can make me laugh. There are times in S7 when I groan at the thought of yet another Buffy lecture and at least Andrew mixes things up a bit. I like his scenes with Anya. And his mini redemption in Storyteller is surprisingly moving

But he does strike me as one of those characters where the writers love them so much that they are laughing out loud at themselves while they are writing their lines, which I dont always think is a good thing as it makes the writers too self indulgent.
Overall I do feel with Andrew that less is more (although that reminds me of an episode of Frasier where someone says that to him and he replies something like "Yes but if less is more, just think how much more more would be" )
 
M

M

Guest
I have mixed feelings on Andrew. He can make me laugh. There are times in S7 when I groan at the thought of yet another Buffy lecture and at least Andrew mixes things up a bit. I like his scenes with Anya. And his mini redemption in Storyteller is surprisingly moving

But he does strike me as one of those characters where the writers love them so much that they are laughing out loud at themselves while they are writing their lines, which I dont always think is a good thing as it makes the writers too self indulgent.
Overall I do feel with Andrew that less is more (although that reminds me of an episode of Frasier where someone says that to him and he replies something like "Yes but if less is more, just think how much more more would be" )
I wanted to laugh at and like your post at the same time, so I guess I'll just respond. 😁 Agreed. As a character, he's problematic, but the actor is really good and provides some much needed comic relief in the last season. I'm not sure he translates well for the long haul, but what we get of him is not too bad. I wouldn't want to think on the character too much, because there are massive problems with him that never get resolved in the show. Maybe if there had been more time. Who knows? I love the Frasier reference, btw.😆
 

Dogs of Winter

Potential
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47
I wanted to laugh at and like your post at the same time, so I guess I'll just respond. 😁 Agreed. As a character, he's problematic, but the actor is really good and provides some much needed comic relief in the last season. I'm not sure he translates well for the long haul, but what we get of him is not too bad. I wouldn't want to think on the character too much, because there are massive problems with him that never get resolved in the show. Maybe if there had been more time. Who knows? I love the Frasier reference, btw.😆
I agree the actor is good, and I think he does exactly what the writers want him to do. Its just that some of the writing is a bit self indulgent and like you said there are problems with him that never really get addressed
 

Faded90

Scooby
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63
I think everyone on the show adoring Tom Lenk gives him the best plot armour the show has ever seen 😂 hence him apparently being Buffy’s bestie by the time Angel S5 rolls around - although I headcanon that as Andrew being Andrew and being full of s*** 😂
 

TriBel

Scooby
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Messages
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Manchester
@Dogs of Winter
While it may be more of an analogy (or something like that) than a direct comparison, it did make me laugh to see Manet's cultural resonance compared to Andrew.
So...sue me! 😄 You're right - it was a bit hyperbolic. I can kinda justify that what was once high culture had become kitsch and BtVS kinda went the other way but that might be stretching it. Who knows...maybe he'll paint Olympia on the side of his van? On the plus side - I never mentioned Baudelaire or the Haussmannization of Paris so yay me! 😄 TBH, I think it was unconsciously motivated because I was contemplating buying another book-I'll-never-read about the flaneur. :rolleyes:Once I mentioned Sherlock I was on a roll.

I do think Andrew has an important function in the text though because he's the figure around which much of the metafictionality coalesces. That he finishes S12 as one of the instigators of the new Watcher's Council and, IIRC, he's in charge of Communications bothers me.
 

Dogs of Winter

Potential
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157
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47
@Dogs of Winter

So...sue me! 😄 You're right - it was a bit hyperbolic. I can kinda justify that what was once high culture had become kitsch and BtVS kinda went the other way but that might be stretching it. Who knows...maybe he'll paint Olympia on the side of his van? On the plus side - I never mentioned Baudelaire or the Haussmannization of Paris so yay me! 😄 TBH, I think it was unconsciously motivated because I was contemplating buying another book-I'll-never-read about the flaneur. :rolleyes:Once I mentioned Sherlock I was on a roll.

I do think Andrew has an important function in the text though because he's the figure around which much of the metafictionality coalesces. That he finishes S12 as one of the instigators of the new Watcher's Council and, IIRC, he's in charge of Communications bothers me.
I am never quite sure whether the meta fiction in Buffy is clever or just lazy writing.

Like in S7 people were moaning about Buffy giving too many "inspirational" speeches so they had the scene with Andrew pretty much winking at the camera and making a joke about it. And I laugh every time, but then think if the writers know there is a problem dont just make a joke and then carry on doing it. Do something about it! Although to be fair that is the least of S7's problems :)
 

TriBel

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I am never quite sure whether the meta fiction in Buffy is clever or just lazy writing.

Like in S7 people were moaning about Buffy giving too many "inspirational" speeches so they had the scene with Andrew pretty much winking at the camera and making a joke about it. And I laugh every time, but then think if the writers know there is a problem dont just make a joke and then carry on doing it. Do something about it! Although to be fair that is the least of S7's problems :)
I think it's clever. There's a way of reading it as historiographic metafiction - not as in-your-face as Barnes' A History of the World in 10 1/2 Chapters or up there with Doctorow 😏* but not bad for something essentially popular culture. There's a reason Cassie's reading Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5. The speeches - speeches tend to be recorded for posterity...what's lost from history are the "asides" - and I think the asides/casual remarks are far more significant. Also omitted from history is the voice of the other (the Slayers history is recorded by the Watchers)...hence I've no problems with the Guardian's late arrival/early dispatch...after that it gets complicated and I get very convoluted. 😄
*Which really dates me.
 

Crossbow

Potential
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Jan 21, 2021
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At least Andrew eats ”Hot Pockets” which is a bit more substantial than the Potential’s diet of cold cereal and cookies.

He does have a few nice moments with Anya and Xander.

Half of what he says goes over my head. The film and comic book references?
 

sunestellar

Bad Day. Started bad, stayed that way.
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I don’t really stand with those of you who calling Andrew problematic. Most of the characters of the show could be qualified the same in that matter, since all of them have done more or less questionable things... But I understand people who might disliked his whiny attitude and find him annoying though.
IMO, Andrew was quite a ‘victim’, till the middle of season 7. Certainly, that doesn't excuse the murder of Jonathan, but he's very influencable, immature and avoiding its responsibilities. In that regard, I find him quite relatable as a character. Some grow up slowly, and one’s can move into adulthood, but still have the mentality of an immature adolescent. It is what is portrayed with the character of Andrew.
Andrew has always been a follower. So yeah, he did bad things. Very bad things, but just in order to fit in the group. He’s craving for acceptance and sense of belonging, with it with the bad guys, or the good guys. And he starts (only starts!) to take his responsabilities in the middle of season 7, in that brillant episode that is Storyteller, when he eventually admit its faults and tries to make amends afterwards.
Overall, I really like Andrew, especially in season 7 and in the comics. He was great as a comic relief, and nerd jokes always work on me. I also like his relationships with every character on the show (special mention to Anya and Spike).
 

TriBel

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So yeah, he did bad things. Very bad things, but just in order to fit in the group. He’s craving for acceptance and sense of belonging, with it with the bad guys, or the good guys.
I think one of the most telling exchanges is this:
BUFFY: He's not evil, but when he gets close to it, he picks up its flavor like a mushroom or something.
ANDREW But I'm reformed. I'm like Vegeta on Dragonball Z. I used to be a pure Sayan, and now I fight for the side of Goku.
BUFFY (shakes her head) Still not coming.
ANDREW (whining) It's not fair. Spike just killed people, and he gets to go.
BUFFY Spike didn't have free will and you did.
ANDREW (sighs) I hate my free will.

It's from Potential (another over-coded title). Andrew has potential but potential for what? The comparisons with Spike aren't coincidental (nor is Andrew's duster). In addition, reformed can be read as "good now" but also as re-formed, re-constructed, and I think Andrew's always in the process of becoming something else - of re-making himself. The butcher in Never Leave Me calls him Neo but while Andrew makes himself anew it's not in relation to anything new. Tellingly, he's usually a poor copy of something/someone...or involved in making copies. He's used to reflect on the impact of popular culture on concepts of self/identity. I'm not sure whether Andrew is also a veiled comment on fandom. I like him as a character and a function.
 

AnthonyCordova

modulating between criticism and reconstruction
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Feb 18, 2014
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Denver, Colorado
Sineya
He's part of a litany of reasons I don't watch S7 anymore, except for the isolated episode here and there. People say he's funny but to me his style of humor is too stupid to be funny. I don't find mega-nerds at all charming either.
 
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