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Angel and Buffy kiss

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
Hey all!

I was wondering what did you think about the Angel and Buffy kiss in End of days/Chosen?

I must say I do love Angel and Buffy together but I feel like it didn't make any sense in the story. Why would they kiss at that very moment? We saw that Spike saw it and the First told him "That bitch" but it didn't end up to anything. I always felt like it was a lame attempt at making us think that Spike would turn evil but that is very stupid IMO.

Do you think it was necessary or do you think the cookie dough speak would have been enough?
 

Priceless

Scooby
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As a Spuffy fan I hated it lol :) It was about showing the love between Angel and Buffy of course, but I like to think it was also about seeing Spike'r reactions, even when being goaded by The First.

Spike could have intervened, caused a scene and it probably would have ended in a fight. But he stepped away, respecting Buffy's agency to do what she felt was right, and what she needed to do. He went home, drew a picture and took his anger out on a punching bag. I love him for that. He accepts Buffy and Angel will always have feelings for each other, and he's said he expects nothing from her and proves that he meant it. Buffy comes back to him, and that's enough for Spike.
 

EarthLogic

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Black Thorn
Spike could have intervened, caused a scene and it probably would have ended in a fight. But he stepped away, respecting Buffy's agency to do what she felt was right, and what she needed to do.
I really don't think respecting Buffy's agency had anything to do with it in that scene (which is not to say he didn't respect her). It was just much more simple: he was hurt and jealous, he ran home and took his anger out on a punching bag. End of. It wasn't some noble backing down.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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I really don't think respecting Buffy's agency had anything to do with it in that scene (which is not to say he didn't respect her). It was just much more simple: he was hurt and jealous, he ran home and took his anger out on a punching bag. End of. It wasn't some noble backing down.
But The First was whispering in Spike's ear at that moment. Why was it doing that? I think he was goading Spike into being hurt and angry enough to jump out and start a fight. The fact that Spike did not do that speaks to his character growth, his deeper understanding of other people's needs and that his feelings are not the most important thing. He puts his respect for Buffy before his own hurt feelings
 

RomanticSoul

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Because that's how they roll? I mean granted, we didn't get the S6 crossover and Sanctuary was supposed to have them at odds anyway. But that's usually how their scenes go. They kiss and Buffy is the one who initiates it (see also Forever). Also Buffy was single at the time, in a stressful situation...so why not have a little safe fun?
 

EarthLogic

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But The First was whispering in Spike's ear at that moment. Why was it doing that? I think he was goading Spike into being hurt and angry enough to jump out and start a fight. The fact that Spike did not do that speaks to his character growth, his deeper understanding of other people's needs and that his feelings are not the most important thing. He puts his respect for Buffy before his own hurt feelings
I thought it was just goading Spike in order to set him up to be manipulated later on rather than at that moment. He was a vampire after all and therefore a powerful potential ally. Wouldn't make sense for the First to want him jumping in there knowing full well Buffy could have his head off with the scythe before he even blinks.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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I thought it was just goading Spike in order to set him up to be manipulated later on rather than at that moment. He was a vampire after all and therefore a powerful potential ally. Wouldn't make sense for the First to want him jumping in there knowing full well Buffy could have his head off with the scythe before he even blinks.
I felt it was more specifically about the actual scene Spike and TF were witnessing. It felt to me that TF was goading Spike into action in that moment, as the trigger had gone which meant TF had no long term hold over Spike.

If Spike had jumped into the scene, throwing punches, I am not sure Buffy would have dusted him. He has a soul, he's her second in command, and imo she's in love with him. In Sleeper Spike asked Buffy to stake him becasue he'd sired people, and she didn't do it, so I don't think she'd dust him over some petty romantic jealousy.. . . . Angel might though :)
 

EarthLogic

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If Spike had jumped into the scene, throwing punches, I am not sure Buffy would have dusted him.
Which is why it would make even less sense for the First to want to goad him into acting in that moment - if it knows about the strength of Buffy and Spike's connection then it knows it wouldn't achieve anything beyond a short-lived argument. If it doesn't know, then it makes more sense for it to want Spike alive and at loggerheads with Buffy rather than dusted (because based on that assumption the First would think Buffy would be willing to kill Spike). A dusted Spike only means Angel stays and helps out. An alive Spike means that it at least has a chance to get under his skin and turn him against people.

Anywhos it's not really worth trying to work out the First's strategy. It never made much sense.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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Which is why it would make even less sense for the First to want to goad him into acting in that moment - if it knows about the strength of Buffy and Spike's connection then it knows it wouldn't achieve anything beyond a short-lived argument. If it doesn't know, then it makes more sense for it to want Spike alive and at loggerheads with Buffy rather than dusted (because based on that assumption the First would think Buffy would be willing to kill Spike). A dusted Spike only means Angel stays and helps out. An alive Spike means that it at least has a chance to get under his skin and turn him against people.

Anywhos it's not really worth trying to work out the First's strategy. It never made much sense.
But TF may be hoping that Angel dusts Spike. Thereby removing an enemy from the board and reducing Buffy's fighting effectiveness as she would lose her second in command. TF knows Angel from previous encounters, it know's his history including his history with Spike and their hatred of each other, maybe that's what TF is relying on.

I'm not sure if there is anything in that scene prior to us seeing Spike that would make TF think Angel would stay around if he dusted Spike. If anything I think it would be more believable if he left after that.

It just seems odd that we have a scene with TF whispering in Spike's ear, and it goes nowhere. For me the pay off is Spike's reaction, or non-reaction, he makes a choice to do nothing, to control himself and I appreciate that as a comment on his changing character and how the soul has affected him.
 

flow

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Why would they kiss at that very moment? We saw that Spike saw it and the First told him "That bitch" but it didn't end up to anything.
That scene happened at the end of End Of Days. "That bitch" is actually the last line of that episode. The scene is a typical cliffhanger. We see Spike watching Buffy and Angel kiss and we don`t know, (at least for another week), what he will do. Will he change sides ? Will he turn evil ? Will he kill Angel ? Or will he just go home and wait patiently for Buffy ? It doesn`t work, if you watch the show on DVD, because you don`t wait for a whole week to watch the next episode after a scene like this.

He puts his respect for Buffy before his own hurt feelings
Or maybe he just trusts her enough to come home and sleep in his arms this night. It might of course be both, but imho their mutual trust is at this Moment more important than his respect for her feelings towards Angel.

Which is why it would make even less sense for the First to want to goad him into acting in that moment
I do believe, the First was (still) hoping, that Spike would go over to the dark side but I don`t think it was aiming for a fist fight between Angel and Spike right there and then. I think it would have tried to use Spike as a double agent and have him switch sides openly at a moment, when that would cause the utmost damage.

flow
 

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
That scene happened at the end of End Of Days. "That bitch" is actually the last line of that episode. The scene is a typical cliffhanger. We see Spike watching Buffy and Angel kiss and we don`t know, (at least for another week), what he will do. Will he change sides ? Will he turn evil ? Will he kill Angel ? Or will he just go home and wait patiently for Buffy ? It doesn`t work, if you watch the show on DVD, because you don`t wait for a whole week to watch the next episode after a scene like this.
flow
Yeah I get that it was a cliffhanger but I still find it lame and out of place. If you are gonna do a cliffhanger make it something. A talk between Spike and Buffy is not enough justification and their story didn't really need the teenage jealousy at this point.
 

Mrs Gordo

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I'm not going to even get into the whole TF talking to Spike. It was stupid. I see no reason to it. But then again, I have no clue what TF was doing the entire time. I have a theory that TF was actually pretty dumb.

With regards to the kiss,

I must say I do love Angel and Buffy together but I feel like it didn't make any sense in the story. Why would they kiss at that very moment?
As @RomanticSoul says, its just kinda what they do. Buffy and Angel are like magnets. They are drawn to each other. That is exactly what you see in this scene. It doesn't matter that the world is about to end or all of the drama that each of them are facing they are drawn to each other for that moment. It doesn't mean wedding bells or happily ever after it means that there is a strong connection and pull between them that still exists.

Many people have the opinion that the scene was lip service to Bangels and was OOC for Angel. And certainly, I am a Bangel fan so perhaps I am biased but I didn't find the scene in the crypt OOC for either of the characters. From Buffy's perspective, she has been down in the dumps, she is lonely, on the out with her friends, facing a purportedly insurmountable big bad and for just a brief second she sees Angel and her whole face lights up in a way we haven't seen in years. For just that second, it's like all she sees is him. And then they kiss and its back to reality.

Similarly Angel is also facing some seriously sad recent events. Cordy is in a coma and he had to give Connor up for a better life. He has signed on to WH and is probably worried about all that is to come. So he is carrying a great deal of baggage but when he sees Buffy I think he too has a moment of suspended belief. He hasn't been around her in so long so it's not out of character for him to be taken back by being lost in the moment by her presence and kiss her.

I also find it funny when people say that them kissing was disrespectful to Spike/Cordy. Neither Angel nor Buffy were in relationships with anyone at the time of the Chosen kiss. Spike was not Buffy's boyfriend. Cordy and Angel never got off the ground. So yea, two single people, with strong feelings for each other leaning in for a kiss.

It worked for me, although I guess some will argue I was the target audience.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
I also don't think it is disrespectful to others. Buffy and Angel wll always have this attraction because they never stopped loving each other!

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
It was a hello. Seriously, I bought that. It’s not the most ridiculous excuse I’ve ever heard. We’ve also seen Buffy kiss as a thank you. And as a goodbye. Not to mention the several times she kissed people because some people did some magic. And the two times she was attacked with a kiss. Buffy and kissing is almost a running gag.
 

flow

Scooby
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I thought this kiss was rather sweet and appropiate. They are a man and a woman, who have not broken up because their love for one another had died. They have broken up because of external circumstances. The love was still there. And even in Chosen there is still love. It has of - imho - changed over the years and it is no longer passionate or forver or romantic. But they do still love each other, so why shouldn`t they kiss ?

I would have been surprised and maybe put off a little bit, if there had been a heavy make-out-session right next to Calebs dead body. But it was far from that. It was just a very innocent kiss between two people who have once been very close to each other and still cherish the memory of that.

flow
 

Athene

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Buffy and Angel kissed when they saw each other in 'Forever' as well, and Angel felt no need to mention anything that was happening in LA then either. It's like whatever has happened since season 3 is irrelevant when Buffy and Angel see each other. Nobody was calling it out of character then...The only reason some were unhappy with the Bangel kiss in 'Chosen' is because they considered Spuffy to be an actual relationship by then. As for Spike watching, I think the writers were trying to get a love triangle going :rolleyes:
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Yeah I think what bugged me is not the kiss but the Spike being there to see it!

Antho

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As a Spuffy fan I hated it lol :)
As a Bangel shipper I loved it :p

More seriously, is it wrong to love this kiss just because of this smile :

 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Not wrong! Great moment.
Priceless
Priceless
*Shudders lol
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Ok if this gif doesn't make you a Bangel I don't know what will!
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
Bangel for the win

TriBel

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I'm not sure I'd want to guess The First's motives - it may seem ineffectual but it's possibly one of the most complex BBs of the series. For a start, given the text appears not to subscribe to an essentialist notion of language, the First Evil can't exist in the absence of its opposite - which raises the question of The First Good. Yes - the First was goading Spike but when had it not been goading him? "That Bitch" is a term associated with S6 and often used in moments when he simultaneously expresses love and hate (in OMWF - I hope she fries - I'm free if that bitch dies! - I better help her out) so the fact he walks away without intervening is important. As far the kiss - it was nice - they have a history together why wouldn't she kiss him? However, she sends him away and reinforces the fact that he's "gone". What was significant for me was the fact that Spike was there to see it. Throughout S7 there's a denigration of vision - in the sense that vision is not easily equated with knowing. Other senses are shown to be more reliable signifiers of authenticity and truth. Spike's vision as a guarantee of truth is particularly dubious when Buffy's present. The fact that he references his "enhanced vampire eyeballs" when she joins him in the basement makes me suspect that her version of events was true - "there were no tongues...It was...a hello". Equally significant was the fact that in Whedon's drawing Angel's eyes are marked with an X. In the crypt he senses something is wrong when he smells Spike. The metaphor of Angel not being able to see what's in front of him is played out symbolically in "Him" (where Spike turns the angels to face the wall) and in Potentials (the angel statues in the cemetery all have their backs to the action.
 

Grace

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Equally significant was the fact that in Whedon's drawing Angel's eyes are marked with an X. In the crypt he senses something is wrong when he smells Spike. The metaphor of Angel not being able to see what's in front of him is played out symbolically in "Him" (where Spike turns the angels to face the wall) and in Potentials (the angel statues in the cemetery all have their backs to the action.
I thought the metaphor in Him was that Spike felt unworthy of the angels' gaze. So if you wanted to, you could also extend that metaphor to Spike not showing himself in the crypt and X'ing out Angel's eyes. He's concerned about his own worth.
 

TriBel

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I thought the metaphor in Him was that Spike felt unworthy of the angels' gaze. So if you wanted to, you could also extend that metaphor to Spike not showing himself in the crypt and X'ing out Angel's eyes. He's concerned about his own worth.
Possibly with the first one (TBH, it initially puzzled me - I was never quite sure how to read it) but not with the second one (in the cemetery). The incident in the basement - I don't think so but that's IMO. That said - in the cemetery, he's wearing a sweater with feathers on it. It could be a) he wants to be Angel, b) the text is indicating he's replaced Angel or c) it's alluding to Eros (who was a winged God and who I think he figured in S6. If read as such, Eros in 6 was accompanied by Thanatos. Eros in S7 is the life force - so creative rather than destructive). Buffy's responses throughout Potentials suggests a shift in her feelings towards him - compassion becoming something else. I'm not dismissing your argument though - his initial response to the amulet suggests he still lacks confidence.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
The suggestion of eros and thanatos of course brings to mind Freud, which I have seen done in academia
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