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Angel and Faith 9.23 "What You Want, Not What You Need, Pt 3" - Released 6/26/13

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Is it just me, or does this seem oddly referential to the non-canon Angel run with IDW?

Whistler's demonic form looks almost identical to Eddie Hope's demonic form from IDW's SPIKE: the Devil You Know, and the humans being used to sprout out demons was the premise of the last arc of the non-canon Angel IDW run.

It seems pretty unlikely that those are both coincidences... I wouldn't have too many objections to making the non-canon IDW arcs official to the Buffyverse, with the possible exception of Kelley Armstrong's arc. That was just unbelievably bad, and all of the characters were written completely differently from every other incarnation of them--I have a hard time believing she even watched the show...

That said, as soon as Armstrong's arc concluded, the subsequent writers almost instantly retconned all the nonsense she brought into the series.

To issue #23 specifically, it's odd for me to have an entire issue be a rooftop fight sequence. Since I have little experience with comics, I'm not sure if this is normal. The fight itself is okay, albeit a little jarring that Angel & Faith are able to take on three beings who were established to have Superman-style powers.

I know that's pretty run-of-the-mill for Buffyverse finales, but the difference is, Buffy, Angel, or Spike always found some spell, talisman, or weapon that gave them the power boost to take on the Big Bad, here, Angel & Faith just psych themselves into fighting beings who appear more powerful than any of the other Big Bads...
 

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Personally, I think Angel is going to die. Reading this issue it was a feeling I just could not shake. Every time I turned the page I expect to see him dust. Then add in Whistler's comment about one of them killing the other. Plus, I keep thinking about the Shanshu and how W&H couldn't tell if he'd be fighting for good or evil and then thinking of how we don't know which side is the good side in this. The question had always been framed as if Angel would go to the darkside or not, I never really thought of the cause he was fighting for being the source of ambiguity.
 

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Personally, I think Angel is going to die. Reading this issue it was a feeling I just could not shake. Every time I turned the page I expect to see him dust. Then add in Whistler's comment about one of them killing the other. Plus, I keep thinking about the Shanshu and how W&H couldn't tell if he'd be fighting for good or evil and then thinking of how we don't know which side is the good side in this. The question had always been framed as if Angel would go to the darkside or not, I never really thought of the cause he was fighting for being the source of ambiguity.

I wouldn't be surprised if Angel died, but I'd be shocked if he stayed dead. Joss likes to milk deaths for all they're worth: Willow's reaction in "Passion," Buffy's in "Becoming," Cordy's in "Hero," Spike's in "The Gift," Wes' in "Hole in the World," etc. As much as Faith cares for Angel, it would have to be Buffy, Connor, or Cordy there reacting to Angel's demise if this were even going to be a big one, imo.

Call it telegraphing his moves, but that's just the way Joss operates. For example, if Angel just had common sense, and brought Fred to the Deeper Well with him (or at least England in general), Fred wouldn't have even died! But Joss had to make it so Angel got the big heroic quest, while Wes was left with Fred to have the big emotional breakdown when she died.
 

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I wouldn't be surprised if Angel died, but I'd be shocked if he stayed dead. Joss likes to milk deaths for all they're worth: Buffy's reaction in "Becoming," Cordy's reaction in "Hero," Spike's reaction in "The Gift," Wes' in "Hole in the World," etc. As much as Faith cares for Angel, it would have to be Buffy, Connor, or Cordy there reacting to Angel's demise if this were even going to be a big one, imo.

Call it telegraphing his moves, but that's just the way Joss operates. For example, if Angel just had common sense, and brought Fred to the Deeper Well with him (or at least England in general), Fred wouldn't have even died! But Joss had to make it so Angel got the big heroic quest, while Wes was left with Fred to have the big emotional breakdown when she died.

If does die I don't think he'll stay dead either. There's too much drama and story in his death for it to go unmilked. Imagine Buffy finding out Angel died from Faith, or even the newly resurrected Giles. There is so much turmoil to exploit there. So many things for Whedon to torture Buffy with. And then bam, he comes back human. I don't think anything B/A would happen but I'd love to see it simply to see Angel's story go in a new direction and away from this fail/redeem cycle he is on. How he engages a life and a world where he is a person is great fodder for stories, IMO.
 

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If does die I don't think he'll stay dead either. There's too much drama and story in his death for it to go unmilked. Imagine Buffy finding out Angel died from Faith, or even the newly resurrected Giles. There is so much turmoil to exploit there. So many things for Whedon to torture Buffy with. And then bam, he comes back human. I don't think anything B/A would happen but I'd love to see it simply to see Angel's story go in a new direction and away from this fail/redeem cycle he is on. How he engages a life and a world where he is a person is great fodder for stories, IMO.

That would be great! My only concern would be it rehashing the Angel envying Spike storyline Lindsey & Eve plotted in AS5...
 

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That would be great! My only concern would be it rehashing the Angel envying Spike storyline Lindsey & Eve plotted in AS5...

I suppose there is chance that could happen but I think there would be enough difference in Angel being human (and it happening through Shanshu) to stop it being a major "thing" for him. I definitely think he would struggle with a feeling of unworthiness but having gone through ATF I think he is a lot wiser to what he can do as a human, plus all the slayers. I mean, this season is very much him on his own personal mission. He isn't helping the helpless or patrolling or anything like that. So, in a lot of ways, he isn't as integral to the cause as he once was. Plus, a part of me feels there would be an element of relief that as a human he wouldn't be able to cause so much chaos as he has before.
 

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I dont think AtF is canon to these comics is it?

Issues 1-17 are canon. They're written by Brian Lynch and plotted by Joss. Anything from issue 18 on doesn't have Joss' involvement and so is t regarded as canon.

:)
 

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Issues 1-17 are canon. They're written by Brian Lynch and plotted by Joss. Anything from issue 18 on doesn't have Joss' involvement and so is t regarded as canon.

:)

Well I'd say the final Spike/Willow IDW series that bridges After the Fall with Buffy Season Eight is canon.

For me, I count all of the Brian Lynch Buffyverse comics to be canon, just because Lynch wrote them as one big story, so it's pretty tough to say 1-17 are canon, but Asylum & Shadow Puppets are not, because 1-17 reference their events.

BS8 & 9 reference the final Spike/Willow miniseries, which also references the other Lynch comics, so it's almost impossible to not take his work as a whole.

That would be:
  • Spike Asylum (2006/2007)
  • Spike Shadow Puppets (2007)
  • Angel: After the Fall 1-17
  • Spike: After the Fall
  • Angel: Last Angel in Hell
  • Spike: the Complete Series (2012)
 

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Personally, I think Angel is going to die.

God, I hope not! This whole "Kill them off, bring them back," theme has been beaten to, pardon the expression, death by Joss. The death of a character is supposed to mean something beyond just "What method do we use to bring him/her back this time?"

So far, we've had:

Buffy killed by the Master and revived

Angel sent to hell and brought back

Faith in a near death coma and recovered

Buffy killed and resurrected again

Connor kidnapped into a hell dimension and returned

Connor having his memory altered and restored

Cordy killed, returned, died again, then possibly returning as a dragon

Wes killed and returning as a Wolfram & Hart spirit

Angel staking himself in hell and returning to Earth

Warren killed and brought back as a witch's skinless boyfriend

Giles killed and brought back as a pre-teen

And I'm sure that I've missed some others somewhere.

Joss is too good a writer, or should be, to keep falling back on this same gimmick for grabbing a little sensationalism.
 

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God, I hope not! This whole "Kill them off, bring them back," theme has been beaten to, pardon the expression, death by Joss. The death of a character is supposed to mean something beyond just "What method do we use to bring him/her back this time?"

So far, we've had:

Buffy killed by the Master and revived

Angel sent to hell and brought back

Faith in a near death coma and recovered

Buffy killed and resurrected again

Connor kidnapped into a hell dimension and returned

Connor having his memory altered and restored

Cordy killed, returned, died again, then possibly returning as a dragon

Wes killed and returning as a Wolfram & Hart spirit

Angel staking himself in hell and returning to Earth

Warren killed and brought back as a witch's skinless boyfriend

Giles killed and brought back as a pre-teen

And I'm sure that I've missed some others somewhere.

Joss is too good a writer, or should be, to keep falling back on this same gimmick for grabbing a little sensationalism.

I think we have to stop fooling ourselves into thinking that death holds any meaning in this verse other than a plot point. This list is exactly why Joss would kill him. Death is nothing more than an extra long nap in the Buffyverse.

Well I'd say the final Spike/Willow IDW series that bridges After the Fall with Buffy Season Eight is canon.

For me, I count all of the Brian Lynch Buffyverse comics to be canon, just because Lynch wrote them as one big story, so it's pretty tough to say 1-17 are canon, but Asylum & Shadow Puppets are not, because 1-17 reference their events.

BS8 & 9 reference the final Spike/Willow miniseries, which also references the other Lynch comics, so it's almost impossible to not take his work as a whole.

That would be:
  • Spike Asylum (2006/2007)
  • Spike Shadow Puppets (2007)
  • Angel: After the Fall 1-17
  • Spike: After the Fall
  • Angel: Last Angel in Hell
  • Spike: the Complete Series (2012)

I think apart from the plotted stories Joss was involved with the status of everything else is at your own discretion. Not contradicting other comics is not the same as calling them canon to me. But I think this is something that has to be each to their own. What's working for you wouldn't work for me at all, and vice versa.
 

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I think we have to stop fooling ourselves into thinking that death holds any meaning in this verse other than a plot point. This list is exactly why Joss would kill him. Death is nothing more than an extra long nap in the Buffyverse.



I think apart from the plotted stories Joss was involved with the status of everything else is at your own discretion. Not contradicting other comics is not the same as calling them canon to me. But I think this is something that has to be each to their own. What's working for you wouldn't work for me at all, and vice versa.
I generally agree, but major events that occur in the Lynch series, such as Betta George's introduction and the Roach Spaceship that play heavily into the larger Buffyverse. Without Lynch's entire arc in canon, a lot of that stuff wouldn't exist.
 
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