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Angel/Angelus/Twilight

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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I'm really stumped as to who this Angel guy is in Season 8.

Is he kinda Angel but also kinda Twilight and also is Angelus still trapped underneath it all?

Why oh why does he keep calling Buffy "Buff"? Angel with a soul has never called her that only Angelus.

He is able to sleep with her without Angelus getting out so is that because it was Twilight.

What is going on...?
 

thrasherpix

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The comics are a different universe. For example, in the season 8 comics Warren never died (so the First could not pretend to be him in season 7), and Amy was much more powerful that she was in the show (and Amy also liked cheese when in the show she didn't want anymore after having been a rat for so long). This is just one more difference.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
It was Angel sleeping with Buffy but with special circumstances created by Twilight. I'm not going to try to explain it but there was no threat of Angelus because the point was for them to be perfectly happy to basically create a new evolved world. I guess the best way to look at it is these were much bigger stakes than an Angelus storyline. That would have been a factor accounted for before this weird erotic master plan came about. Angel calling her Buff is a clue that he isn't himself. He may be all there sometimes, but he certainly isn't at others.
The comics are a different universe. For example, in the season 8 comics Warren never died (so the First could not pretend to be him in season 7), and Amy was much more powerful that she was in the show (and Amy also liked cheese when in the show she didn't want anymore after having been a rat for so long). This is just one more difference.
This I disagree with. The comics are the same universe. Warren was dead for a couple seconds and then revived by Amy. That's why he is still skinless in the comics. Everything happened exactly the same but Amy did some sort of spell to revive and preserve a skinless body. Amy is much more powerful because it has been over two years and she has devoted all her time to wanting to fight Willow. Let's remember how much power Willow gained in two years.
 

thrasherpix

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This I disagree with. The comics are the same universe. Warren was dead for a couple seconds and then revived by Amy. That's why he is still skinless in the comics. Everything happened exactly the same but Amy did some sort of spell to revive and preserve a skinless body. Amy is much more powerful because it has been over two years and she has devoted all her time to wanting to fight Willow. Let's remember how much power Willow gained in two years.
I'm pretty sure Joss said he forgot about the First imitating Warren and that Warren wasn't dead. I recall, vaguely, that it jumped out at me when I read it. Frankly, I think the idea that Warren was dead for a second or two was just something thrown in later to patch that up.

And Amy supposedly saved Warren in some demiplane, all in season 6. She was already far more powerful than she was in season 7 (at least according to the comic retcon), so no sale. The comics are a different universe to me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
I'm pretty sure Joss said he forgot about the First imitating Warren and that Warren wasn't dead. I recall, vaguely, that it jumped out at me when I read it. Frankly, I think the idea that Warren was dead for a second or two was just something thrown in later to patch that up.

And Amy supposedly saved Warren in some demiplane, all in season 6. She was already far more powerful than she was in season 7 (at least according to the comic retcon), so no sale. The comics are a different universe to me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
That's fair. I just have to find ways to explain the comics because I want what happens in them to be official. Not sure if that makes sense. If Joss said that about Warren that's actually kinda funny.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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I re-read the comics a few days ago and was so confused about Angel especially since I'm doing an Angel re-watch right now. And I don't understand any of it in the context of Angel. He had to have been mostly Twilight. Why would the Angel who risked his humanity for the fight for good, who risked his and his friends' lives for purposes of saving the world then say "screw the world let's stay here and bone"?

But then he called her Buff and I thought ok, it's not Angel. Right? I continue to be so confused.
 

white avenger

white avenger
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It's pure Angel in Season 8, fully ensouled and willingly working as Twilight's minion, the same as Caleb was the First Evil's minion in Season 7. That's why I never understood why Angel got a free pass for all of the death and mayhem that happened. It wasn't like Season 2, when Angel was completely out of the picture, this was ANGEL, the "champion," the "helper of the helpless," who willingly and knowingly struck a deal to destroy 3/4 of the world's population, on the pretense that he was somehow doing it to save the other 25%, and he actually expected Buffy to not only approve of his plan, but to go off to some other world and play Eve to his Adam. They can make all the excuses in the world about how Angel was somehow enthralled by Twilight and it was really Twilight who did all the bad stuff, but it doesn't change the fact that Angel willingly formed an alliance with a being intent upon basically destroying the human race.

Season 8 was a good story, ruined, in my opinion, by Joss' desire to toss in another of his "plot twists," like the real reason why Spike went to Africa. It worked fairly well in Season 7, but failed miserably in Season 8.
 

TriBel

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It's pure Angel in Season 8, fully ensouled and willingly working as Twilight's minion, the same as Caleb was the First Evil's minion in Season 7. That's why I never understood why Angel got a free pass for all of the death and mayhem that happened. It wasn't like Season 2, when Angel was completely out of the picture, this was ANGEL, the "champion," the "helper of the helpless," who willingly and knowingly struck a deal to destroy 3/4 of the world's population, on the pretense that he was somehow doing it to save the other 25%, and he actually expected Buffy to not only approve of his plan, but to go off to some other world and play Eve to his Adam. They can make all the excuses in the world about how Angel was somehow enthralled by Twilight and it was really Twilight who did all the bad stuff, but it doesn't change the fact that Angel willingly formed an alliance with a being intent upon basically destroying the human race.

Season 8 was a good story, ruined, in my opinion, by Joss' desire to toss in another of his "plot twists," like the real reason why Spike went to Africa. It worked fairly well in Season 7, but failed miserably in Season 8.
Was this the prophecy that Whistler was banging on about? That Buffy and Angel were destined to meet but nobody had allowed for the chance they'd fall in love? I never fully understood it - though I was impressed with the fact that Spike recognised him and Angel could brood in a mask. What happened to the universe? I'll be honest - I can see how it's the logical progression of the type of love he and Buffy shared - I have no problem with the theory - it' the narrative in between I can't follow.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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It's pure Angel in Season 8, fully ensouled and willingly working as Twilight's minion, the same as Caleb was the First Evil's minion in Season 7. That's why I never understood why Angel got a free pass for all of the death and mayhem that happened. It wasn't like Season 2, when Angel was completely out of the picture, this was ANGEL, the "champion," the "helper of the helpless," who willingly and knowingly struck a deal to destroy 3/4 of the world's population, on the pretense that he was somehow doing it to save the other 25%, and he actually expected Buffy to not only approve of his plan, but to go off to some other world and play Eve to his Adam. They can make all the excuses in the world about how Angel was somehow enthralled by Twilight and it was really Twilight who did all the bad stuff, but it doesn't change the fact that Angel willingly formed an alliance with a being intent upon basically destroying the human race.

Season 8 was a good story, ruined, in my opinion, by Joss' desire to toss in another of his "plot twists," like the real reason why Spike went to Africa. It worked fairly well in Season 7, but failed miserably in Season 8.
Let's say for arguments sake that you are right that this is Angel and not possessed by Twilight. Does this make sense with the Angel we have known since Season 1 of BtVS? That he would willingly agree to leave this world behind for some paradise with Buffy? If so I feel like we were watching different shows.
 

RomanticSoul

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The comics are a different universe. For example, in the season 8 comics Warren never died (so the First could not pretend to be him in season 7), and Amy was much more powerful that she was in the show (and Amy also liked cheese when in the show she didn't want anymore after having been a rat for so long). This is just one more difference.
Oh there are plenty. Aside from the ones you mentioned, there is also Fred. Her soul was destroyed in the resurrection of Illyria, yet she is back again. I believe Dawn said something about crushing on Angel or whatever, despite her expressing a clear Riley preference during S5. We could do this forever...

I re-read the comics a few days ago and was so confused about Angel especially since I'm doing an Angel re-watch right now. And I don't understand any of it in the context of Angel. He had to have been mostly Twilight. Why would the Angel who risked his humanity for the fight for good, who risked his and his friends' lives for purposes of saving the world then say "screw the world let's stay here and bone"?

But then he called her Buff and I thought ok, it's not Angel. Right? I continue to be so confused.
Just forget it and ignore it. This Angel has no relation to either AtS S5 Angel (Whedon's own freaking version of Angel) nor ATF Angel. Whedon simply threw Angel and AtS under the bus for this nonsense. There is no way that you will find an answer to your question. This arc I believe was also written by someone who hadn't even seen AtS, at all. So all they knew was BtVS Angel, and BtVS!Angel's role was sadly all about Buffy (like S8). Just ignore this trash because they made it so easy to call foul, in so many ways. The retcons, the character assassinations and the utter destruction of Angel and AtS. Just see them as non-canon and do away with them...
 

Mrs Gordo

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Oh there are plenty. Aside from the ones you mentioned, there is also Fred. Her soul was destroyed in the resurrection of Illyria, yet she is back again. I believe Dawn said something about crushing on Angel or whatever, despite her expressing a clear Riley preference during S5. We could do this forever...


Just forget it and ignore it. This Angel has no relation to either AtS S5 Angel (Whedon's own freaking version of Angel) nor ATF Angel. Whedon simply threw Angel and AtS under the bus for this nonsense. There is no way that you will find an answer to your question. This arc I believe was also written by someone who hadn't even seen AtS, at all. So all they knew was BtVS Angel, and BtVS!Angel's role was sadly all about Buffy (like S8). Just ignore this trash because they made it so easy to call foul, in so many ways. The retcons, the character assassinations and the utter destruction of Angel and AtS. Just see them as non-canon and do away with them...
I get it, but I'm really trying to head cannon this so it works in the grand scheme of the whole story. I'd rather not completely ignore it all although I understand that ultimately its so completely off the wall its hard not to ignore it.

I buy that perhaps Angel potentially could have thought that aligning himself initially with Twilight to help Buffy would be the right thing to do especially given the vague way Twilight presented the whole "helping Buffy" (he didn't say the way to help Buffy is to kill tons of people and then to dump the whole world. But no incarnation of ensouled Angel (either the early BtVS or the AtS Angel) would ever agree to kill innocent people for any reason nor would he ever think that Buffy would sacrifice her friends and the whole world to be with him. And I say again, he would never call her Buff. So, it wasn't Angel.

People can feel free to disagree with me but this is the only way I can move forward with the comics lol. ;)
 

Mrs Gordo

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Why do you want to punish yourself even more? Wasn't S8 enough? Don't be a masochist.:p
Punish!?!? Seasons 9 10 and 11 of both series are all significantly better than season 8 and very enjoyable IMO. @dcai0830 please continue to move forward;)
LOL - well tbh I'm not super excited to jump into the Buffy and Spike love saga that are Seasons 9-11 but I am going to press forward. I wish there was like a summary version I could read...
 

Mylie

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And I say again, he would never call her Buff. So, it wasn't Angel.
Actually, Angel did call her «Buff» in Enemies. But he was playing Angelus then. So yeah it is still weird and intriguing. But I think maybe this was intended. She was surprised at it too back then.

Angel: Actually, there's been a slight change in plan, Buff.
Buffy: Buff? You just called ... What's the matter with you?
 

Mrs Gordo

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Actually, Angel did call her «Buff» in Enemies. But he was playing Angelus then. So yeah it is still weird and intriguing. But I think maybe this was intended. She was surprised at it too back then.

Angel: Actually, there's been a slight change in plan, Buff.
Buffy: Buff? You just called ... What's the matter with you?
And he did that very purposefully to convey that he was playing Angelus. Because Angel would never call her Buff.
 

RomanticSoul

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LOL - well tbh I'm not super excited to jump into the Buffy and Spike love saga that are Seasons 9-11 but I am going to press forward. I wish there was like a summary version I could read...
Screw Buffy. Angel & Faith S9 is awesomeness. From what little I have read and from what fans said about it.

As to the Spuffy love saga. Eh. Only happens because Buffy has refused to get the help of a shrink in order to deal with her abandonment issues, hence she jumps Spike. Poor thing that Buffy, forever not allowed to grow up because the writers refuse to let her. And those abandonment issues have been driving her actions since the early Seasons. Oh well, we always have Faith for a slayer with character growth.
 

white avenger

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Let's say for arguments sake that you are right that this is Angel and not possessed by Twilight. Does this make sense with the Angel we have known since Season 1 of BtVS? That he would willingly agree to leave this world behind for some paradise with Buffy? If so I feel like we were watching different shows.
How many times in the course of the two shows did we see Angel take it upon himself to make some decision affecting Buffy or her friends without ever consulting, or even warning them, that something major was about to be done? Ultimately, Angel has the feeling that he is the best and final judge of how "the greater good" is to be served, whether it is taking the single happiest day of Buffy's life away from her ("I Will Remember You") wiping all knowledge of Connor from his friends' memories, or sending the entire population of Los Angeles to hell so that he could make what he, himself, described as a futile act of defiance. Twilight was just the logical path of progression for Angel, when made the decision that would have ultimately affected the whole world. This is, consistently, Angel's greatest character flaw. He thinks that he, under any and all circumstances, has to have the final say in everything.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
Screw Buffy. Angel & Faith S9 is awesomeness. From what little I have read and from what fans said about it.

As to the Spuffy love saga. Eh. Only happens because Buffy has refused to get the help of a shrink in order to deal with her abandonment issues, hence she jumps Spike. Poor thing that Buffy, forever not allowed to grow up because the writers refuse to let her. And those abandonment issues have been driving her actions since the early Seasons. Oh well, we always have Faith for a slayer with character growth.
*Laughs*. Really? Buffy without character growth? Is there an excuse you haven't used yet for Buffy and Spike getting together? Their relationship in the comics is actually pretty mature. And if you think Buffy hasn't grown up then I'm sorry but you are terribly mistaken. She is even more of a leader, she has learned to let go of things, she can deal with situations that make her uncomfortable instead of avoiding them, she takes full responsibility of her actions, and she has learned to move past people having different opinions than her and accept what others believe. She is so much more of a woman then she was even a year ago, and that growth has been slowly building since the first episode of the series. Not to mention that Spike has gotten a lot more mature as well. He has learned to take better responsibility and be more accepting and has gotten a lot better at handling problems while still being fully devoted to Buffy.
 

Mylie

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And he did that very purposefully to convey that he was playing Angelus. Because Angel would never call her Buff.
Yes, I know. I just wanted to mention that scene because it's an interesting comparison with twilight also calling her Buff.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
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