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Angel: Can't Cross Over From Buffy

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by pizzaslayer, May 5, 2016.

  1. pizzaslayer

    pizzaslayer chosen...to watch Buffy

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    I've been a fan of Buffy since the show aired. I recently re-watched it and decided to watch Angel as well. I saw all of Angel except Season 5 back when it aired so I just decided to watch Season 5 (thought it might fill in some gaps in the comic). I just have never been able to get into it! I don't understand! I love everything Joss puts out. I love every episode of Buffy and all the comics. Maybe it's just that David Boreanez doesn't really excite me that much. The only thing holding my interest is Spike's character. Angel just seems like a basic male fantasy hero. I never liked him and I don't think his character is very developed. I can't get past this feeling that Boreanez is like some typical womanizing alpha male type that doesn't really care about the Buffy legacy or the role. I just needed to put that out there. I might be wrong but it's how I feel. Spike 4ever!
     
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  2. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    I feel exactly the same. I've watched Angel once, years ago, and I just couldn't get into it. I'm a Spuffy fan, so I thought my love for Spike might be holding me back? I am trying to watch S5 now, but it's slow going. Angel really pales into insignificance next to Spike, who has the bigger character and arc throughout the show. I keep watching just for the comedy value of Angel and Spike when they are together

    If that was your first post, hello and welcome to the boards :)
     
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  3. pizzaslayer

    pizzaslayer chosen...to watch Buffy

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    Omg! Thank you for your reply! I finally have a place for all my Buffy obsessed thoughts! I can't believe it took me this long to find the boards!
     
    ChaseRules: Glad to have you her with you Buffy obsessions :)
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  4. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    You are totally in the right place. You will meet some great people and loads of different opinions.

    There's a Check In forum, if you post a hello in there you'll get to meet everyone (but you don't have to, it's not mandatory) :)
     
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  5. Firstina

    Firstina Angel's Little Avenger

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    Wow! I don't even know where to begin.

    Basic? Two-sided vampire with a soul and demon inside him and eternal redemption arc, with "moment of happiness curse", with tendency of going evil from time to time doesn't look all that basic to me.
    Fantasy? Basically a eunuch.;) Emotionally stunned, can't approach women, socially awkward, has crazy ex-girlfriend(s) who would gladly eat you for breakfast or if you'll break the eunuch rule with Angel(us) himself in the leading role.
    Hero? Is that because he saved that puppy? It doesn't count. Attempted murder of a friend does.

    I love this guy precisely because he is none of these things.

    I can agree on male, though.

    I'll recomend to watch all Angel from the start if you want to get this charachter in all his glory.
    Try essay by Kita in this thread Angel - Him For All In All: An Essay By Kita
    That's of course if you want to be re-persuaded of Angel awesomness, but I have doubts in this because of "Spike 4ever" in your message:)
     
    thetopher: Great post. :)
  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Well, that's the way that i always saw him during his 3 Seasons on "Buffy," and, I think that to a basic extent, that's what Joss wanted him to be, and how David played him. Angel, as he was introduced in "Welcome To The Hellmouth" was the perfect Harlequin Romance hero, dark, handsome, and tortured by his mysterious past, redeemed by coming to the aid of the pure love of a brave, innocent girl, defending her against overwhelming odds, as they stand shoulder to shoulder against her enemies. He even has the tragic flaw in his past. He can never truly know real love because of a Gypsy curse. David plays the role quite well, even though he must have gritted his teeth and rolled his eyes at times because of some of the things that he had to do.

    Angel only came into his own after he moved out from under Buffy's wing and onto his own show. There, he retained most of the character flaws, along with the hero's mentality of, "I know what's best. Only I see the Big Picture. Only I can make the Noble Sacrifice," but, at least, on his own show, he finally got some friends, primarily Cordy, who could usually, though not always, tell him how full of crap he really was, and keep his head straight. Unfortunately, he lost her after Season 4, so the show sort of drifted off center after that.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
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  7. Monkey Pants

    Monkey Pants Bored Now

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    Black Thorn
    I don't love Angel as much as Buffy. I think the quality varies wildly and there are a lot of pointless episodes and arcs. That being said, I love a lot of Angel, and if it didn't exist the Buffyverse would be very lacking. We would miss out on all of Wesley's development, much of Faith's development, Lorne, Fred, Cordelia's development and a lot of amazing stories and episodes.
     
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  8. pizzaslayer

    pizzaslayer chosen...to watch Buffy

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    I appreciate your perspective. I don't hate Angel, I just don't think his personality is as dynamic as Spike's. I think one of the things I like about Buffy is how female-centric it is. So, moving to a show in the Buffyverse that has a male lead was not as interesting. I also liked how the Buffy episodes featured bands, which is one of the things the comic lacks. Also, I have a degree in English, and I can't help but add that a traditional male hero in fantasy is often a "eunuch" or has little sexual activity outside of one specific/revered female character. Angel is typical in some ways, but of course his back story is super cool and undeniable. But yeah, Spike 4ever.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 5, 2016 ---
    I agree, you bring up a valid point!
     
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  9. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I think for awhike certainly on Buffy DB was a very stiff presence its just possible that he was a bit green, as an actor at the time, and of course it wasn't the most interesting character at times. I think he did come along way from S3 of Buffy onwards. As an actor I think he is best when playing a arsehold (Angelus), or deadpan comedy which we get far more of in Angel than in Buffy. I like the character when you consider the twist to the character his pass and where he goes in Angel, but to me Spike is just so much more richer, and that Master's performance is just more dramatic and exciting to watch for me. In a way the supporting cast makes Angel, but I think he does a good job too. Its not as consistent as Buffy no, but I still really like it.
     
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  10. pizzaslayer

    pizzaslayer chosen...to watch Buffy

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    Ye
    Yeah, I think it's DB that bums me out more than the Angel character. Maybe I've looked too much into his personal life, or he just only seems to play certain roles well. Like he was good on Bones. JM is a true thespian though.
     
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  11. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Yeah the odd thing is as much as I love Angel as a show, I'm still a bit unconvinced of him as a leading man. Him getting his own show was more a need to explore that character's history in a way that they just couldn't do on Buffy. He had peaked on Buffy and it was time to move on. Its just a shame that they didn't drop the Buffy-Angel relationship there, besides the odd cross-over which I think they handled quite well.
     
  12. Firstina

    Firstina Angel's Little Avenger

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    Thanks!

    I think that's the thing with introverted characters like Angel, all shiny extraverted ones like Spike just seem more interesting and dynamic even if it isn't so.

    Angel has great female stories. Darla's arc is very facinating and touching. Cordy's tragic story is basically a great ode to freedom. I don't see that male lead diminished female-centricity of the show.

    I can't help but see contradiction in your view. You labeled Angel as basic male fantasy hero but isn't Spike the one as well?
    --- Double Post Merged, May 5, 2016 ---
    Funny thing, I totally agree that JM is a great actor but don't like Spike that much.
    And the opposite for DB - as an actor he is just more or less ok, but Angel's character I love.
     
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  13. SpikeRules

    SpikeRules Still kicking it with Buffy

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    Sineya
    YES! :D
     
  14. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I do agree that Angel on Buffy was a bit dull, he was the typical mysterious broody hero. I never really bought his and Buffy's relationship, but that's first love for you. I never thought he was particularly attractive or sexy on Buffy. Angelus on Buffy was so much more interesting as a character IMO.

    I liked him so much much on his own show. It was like DB had more of a free reign to delve more into Angel's character. We saw goofy Angel, sad Angel, happy Angel and he got to ham it up as Angelus.

    As TV shows go, I do prefer Buffy over Angel. Always have, always will, but I appreciate AtS more than I used to, because Angel did deserve his own story. And without that, we wouldn't have Wesley's, Cordy's and we wouldn't have been introduced to Fred, Gunn or Lorne.

    Spike, now, that's a different story.... ;)
     
  15. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    If there had been a Spike series, who knows who and what we would have been introduced to? I liked Lorne and Fred and Lilah and a few others who were unlike any characters in BtVS. Maybe Spike the series would have had even greater characters. But we will never know unless Joss releases a sample screenplay.
     
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  16. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I have to agree here - much as I love Angel, I can't get into DB. Did not and will not watch Bones because, while i am willing to stay in the B-verse, I am not able to see DB in other roles knowing what I do know.

    Yeah - that's my guy - that's why I like him on Angel. He is wonderfully flawed, and funny, and really self absorbed. Best part of his arc - Darla, and going dark. I never really felt much about his love for Connor. I mean, I knew it existed, it just never touched me.

    Pure Angelus.
    SPIKE - (to Nostroyev) Uh, yeah, probably should warn you. He likes to pretend he's the boss.

    Angel retains this characteristic to the point that Spike can't even tell he's souled.

    SPIKE
    I'm not the prat here. I know you, Angel. What do you think you're doing? Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.

    ANGEL
    (stops in front of the elevators)
    Not gonna happen.

    SPIKE
    Oh, you think you're in control here? Guess again, mate. You're no more in control than I am. Except I'm not gonna bloody stand for it, while you're just a blind...


    Exactly what Angel said before he changed his mind and let W&H to rape the memories of his friends. Given how appalled the were at Gunn allowing them to put things in his head, I wonder how they would have reacted knowing that Angel sold them down the river. But that's Angel - he's convinced he can make anything right - for a big picture guy he can be incredibly blind to the big picture.


    Marsters is that kind of actor who makes everyone around him shine. I think that's why, even when he is being a hugely dysfunctional arse, he's still compelling. He takes the character and makes him so much richer - the sum of the parts creating a greater whole. While I can see Angel played by a lot of actors, there is no one who could do such justice with Spike.

    It's really to bad they didn't - if noting else it gives the impression that having an orgasm while he has sex with any girl will make him perfectly happy. That sort of reduces Buffy to...well, something just physical, and it wasn't. I like Bangel, but I like it because of how it created Angel.
     
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  17. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    But doesn't that have more to do with the way that those characters were originally written than the actors who portrayed them? David played a character who was supposed to be liked and trusted from the very beginning. Angelus was supposed to be his total opposite, and only basically a guest star on the show. There as no real investment in the character.

    James came on the show as the primary villain of the first half of Season 2, and he remained in that image until well into Season 4. He was evil, we weren't supposed to either like or trust him. When the decision was made to bring him back onto the show as a regular member of the cast, James had to do something that David never did, and possibly would have had a much harder time doing. He had to evolve Spike, slowly and in a more or less believable fashion, from Big Bad to the person who Buffy would trust enough to ask to protect Dawn if she died, within the space of just over 40 episodes, without the advantage of a deus ex machina having his soul restored. If David had come onto the show as Angelus in Season 1, could he have successfully accomplished that same thing by the end of Season 2, and attracted as big a fan base as James did? Possibly, but I somehow doubt it.
     
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  18. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I totally get that. I love Angel so much, but I can't really stand DB at all. (On the other hand I love JM but can't stand Spike at all, lol.)
     
  19. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I think Kristine Sutherland/Joyce and Emma Caulfield/Anya are that for me. I really like both actresses and think they do their best with not such great characters. Although Joyce did grow me after awhile.
     
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  20. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    I agree with you in that Angel didn't seem very dynamic . Also he seemed like he didn't care for anyone else at time what with his "Only I can make the Noble Sacrifice,"
    bit & not thinking about anyone else . Plus the romance with Cordy was just wrong. People can be happy without having sex so he could have lost his soul anyway plus isn't that why he left Buffy . Because he couldn't have a relationship but now he can o_O

    Never finished the series myself.
     
    Mr Trick: You should stick with it.
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