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Angel : I don't want a bad girl. (Real life metaphors)

Buffy Summers

Yataro
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Sineya
Priceless said:
One of my pet hates is the 'happy hooker' as seen in so many tv shows. Starvation is still not a 'good reason' to prostitute yourself, it's horrible that a woman has to sell herself to survive, that somehow it's an acceptable route for a woman to take to earn money. We cannot say we don't like the objectification of women and applaud women for turning themselves into objects, which doesn't help women as a class. (You know I'm no libfem!)
I’m not disagreeing with you on the “happy hooker” point (especially in anything set in present day), but there is an argument to be made that in earlier centuries this was the one area where Women could make their own money or own their own business. Not saying it‘s right or wrong.
 
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Priceless

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I’m not disagreeing with you on the “happy hooker” point (especially in anything set in present day), but there is an argument to be made that in earlier centuries this was the one area where Women could make their own money or own their own business. Not saying it‘s right or wrong.
I can't argue with you as I don't know about historical prostitution. But how sad that selling your body is a step up the social ladder for lower class women.
 

TriBel

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Enjoying sex is not the same as selling your body and having to have sex with anyone who can pay and having to do whatever they want, living under the constant fear of violence.
Don't disagree but women who enjoyed sex could still be sent to an asylum for nymphomania. I was kinda drawing parallels with Buffy's "why do I let him do these things to me" (but not a direct comparison 'cos I forgot about Normal. And I'm thinking now...about...never mind).
Starvation is still not a 'good reason' to prostitute yourself
Again, I agree but what if it's your only option? It's okay having free will but what if it's a Hobson's Choice? Again, thinking of S6 where Buffy's main objective is to put food on the table.
it's horrible that a woman has to sell herself to survive, that somehow it's an acceptable route for a woman to take to earn money. We cannot say we don't like the objectification of women and applaud women for turning themselves into objects, which doesn't help women as a class.
. Doesn't everyone who works in exchange for money objectify themselves by selling their labour? If I'm not careful we'll be dissecting the whole of S6 (in fact, wasn't that the point Spike was making when he said "Service me" in DMP?)
(You know I'm no libfem!)
I do. You know I'm French Feminist - which is probably not feminist at all? ;)
Personally I think Anne has a better like than Darla, though Darla has the better death. :)
Agree - but doesn't Darla go from Mary Magdalene to the Virgin Mary (I remember someone saying her death scene looked like a Nativity Tableaux)? Thus conveying the two poles of what a woman can be?

Both Virgin and Whore seem to be a construct of the Catholic Church. “Those struggles saw the Church attempt to control the visionary nature of Mary Magdalene’s experience by turning her into a prostitute. Nor has it been a historical accident that Mary, the mother of Jesus, who apart from the nativity narratives in Matthew and Luke plays almost no role in the gospels and in the life of Jesus (and who was regarded by early sceptics and critics of Christianity as a wanton; an adulteress, her son as a bastard) was transformed by the Church (without any gospel evidence) into a perpetual virgin and the Mother of God.”

@Priceless I can't argue with you as I don't know about historical prostitution. But how sad that selling your body is a step up the social ladder for lower class women.

I don't know what "class" Darla would be. I'm actually not sure when prostitution became a considered a deviance. I don't think it was for the Ancient Greeks. There's an argument that says the Ripper's victims weren't prostitutes but labelled as such to place the blame on them. I'm pretty sure something similar happened with the Yorkshire Ripper.
 
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Priceless

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. Doesn't everyone who works in exchange for money objectify themselves by selling their labour? If I'm not careful we'll be dissecting the whole of S6 (in fact, wasn't that the point Spike was making when he said "Service me" in DMP?)
Selling your body is not the same as selling hamburger *see the eyeroll Buffy gives him when he says that line :)

Don't disagree but women who enjoyed sex could still be sent to an asylum for nymphomania
What did Freud say about women who enjoyed sex?

I don't know what "class" Darla would be. I'm actually not sure when prostitution became a considered a deviance. I don't think it was for the Ancient Greeks. There's an argument that says the Ripper's victims weren't prostitutes but labelled as such to place the blame on them. I'm pretty sure something similar happened with the Yorkshire Ripper.
Society sees prostitutes as less than other women. I do find it hard to believe that a woman with money would go into prostitution, but you never know
 

Professor Walsh

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So what is with with girls and women? if men are not into bad girls why are woman so into bad boys, not trying to make this into another bangel vs spuffy debate but we all know the major appeal of spike was the bad boy attitude and we know, most of the spike fan base were girls who fantasied about him. this is a pattern seen in other ficion like Damon (vampire diaries), Chuck Bass (gossip girl) and Draco Malfoy (harry potter).
There is a long history of the bad boy being viewed as more interesting than the nice guy. How many girls have dreamed of rescuing Heathcliff rather than marrying Edgar Linton, thinking that Christine Daaé should have chosen the Phantom over Raoul or swooned over Danny Zuko, only to mention a few? Looking back at the romance novels I read in my youth (if you belong in the Nordic countries, you know Margit Sandemo), I remember how much I loved the stories with the storyline Buffy Summers mentioned: Where the love interest acts as a gruffy bastard towards everyone in the beginning, but then our heroine breaks down the walls he's built around himself and - surprise!- there is such a lovely person behind the gruffy mask. The older I get, the less healthy I find this trope. I think too many young women enter a relationship believing that they can bring out something in a man that she (thinks she) sees. That is dangerously close to entering a relationship wanting to change the other person.
 
K
katmobile
I actually felt really sorry for Edgar

TriBel

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Selling your body is not the same as selling hamburger *see the eyeroll Buffy gives him when he says that line :)
Just because it gets an eyeroll doesn't mean it's not right. TBH, I'd have smacked him - because of the look on his face. Have you read Pat Barker's Blow your House Down? If not, you should do. It's harrowing but she has some interesting arguments. It's set in the North East in the 70s. There's a trilogy but they're only loosely connected.

Please note - I'm playing Devil's Advocate here - these aren't necessarily my views (in fact, I'm like a reed in the wind with most of my views/principles. If they're the wrong ones I'll find some more. ;)
Why? There are arguments for the legalization of prostitution. If a woman's safe and off the street, perhaps working alongside other women but her own boss, is there anything fundamentally wrong with it? Is it fundamentally different from say - working down a mine or gutting chickens in a factory or is it more to do with how we, as a society, think about women's bodies (they're both holy and profane) and sex? Again, I think this feeds into how we perceive good/bad girls; ruly and unruly women, the disciplined and the undisciplined body. Note: when she's with Angel Buffy is disciplined; with Spike she's unruly. Disciplined sounds as though it should be a good thing but can be a form of of oppression.

There's a connection between good/bad girls and clean/dirty girls. As I said elsewhere (I think), it's striking in S6 that Spike's referred to as a "dirty thing" Buffy's actually the one connected with dirt and smells. Then we have "Dirty Girls" in S7 and Caleb makes it explicit (and I think some of this might feed in to how Angel perceives good/bad girls):

CALEB Now, now, now. There's no blame here. You were born dirty, born without a soul. Born with that gaping maw wants to open up, suck out a man's marrow. Makes me puke to think too hard on it. (Shannon touches the passenger side door, trying to open it, but there's no handle) Yeah, that there door's problematical. I don't know as I could recommend steppin' out at this speed anyway. You're like as not to tumble some. But, of course, there's my boys back there—Ooh, they hate to miss a mark.

CALEB (to Buffy/The First) Just another dirty girl. And, since you only dress up in dead folk, I'm guessing, one who's already been paid her wage.

CALEB Oh, it has its moments. Paul had some good stuff, for instance. But overall I find it a tad complicated (slaps Faith). I like to keep things simple. (kicks Faith across the room into a stack of wine barrels) Good folk, bad folk, (a potential with long black hair swings at Caleb, but he grabs her sword, then her face) clean folk, dirty folk...

CALEB (V.O.) There once was a woman, and she was foul, like all women, for Adam's rib was dirty—just like Adam himself—for what was he, but human.

What did Freud say about women who enjoyed sex?
LOL! TBH, I've no idea. D'you know how much stuff that man wrote? And he's actually boring. I like him filtered through other writers. He had 6 kids and here were rumours about him and his sister-in-law if that helps. 😄 I watched A Dangerous Method cos I like Cronenberg but not even Mortensen, Fassbender, and Cassel could compensate for Keira Knightley. Though, he'd have A LOT to say about Caleb's "Born with that gaping maw wants to open up, suck out a man's marrow".🤣

and we know, most of the spike fan base were girls who fantasied about him.
What? That's a massive generalisation. Besides, Spike's in excess of the bad boy trope. If anything, it's a role he plays.
 
Priceless
Priceless
Have you heard of the Nordic Model?

thrasherpix

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Definition time: when I say "bad girls" I mean the female version of "bad boy." This does not automatically equate to hedonism or prostitution (or vice versa). I forgot how many define bad girl as one who is not quiet, submissive, and chaste. That's not how my mind classifies such things. While I'm arguably in a minority, I'm not unique.

I'm not certain it's a good example as I haven't seen a single ep in its entirety (but I've heard so much about it) but it sounds like many of the female characters of Riverdale are violent narcissists that draws in many male viewers attracted to them (no doubt some female ones as well). And while Hollywood looks could help explain the attraction many have for that, girls of that nature even when not of a model's good looks were also very popular.

My mother would be a checkmark in nearly every category of bad girl but guys were drawn to her, including those fools who thought they could change or save her. Just like more than one fool of a woman thought they could change my bad boy father. Suffice to say I do believe the "bad girl thing" is real, and it draws many men, and more than for a one night stand, just as it does for females (but far from all, despite how women can write bestsellers of abuse fantasies for women). Thankfully, many people, male and female, do outgrow it as they get older. There may be some evolutionary psychology involved if you believe in that (I just saw a comic today I might share later that actually touched on that).

I remember when the movie Serenity came out. Lots of guys were suddenly hot for River after she slaughtered Reavers. (On a side note I've figured out why some females are much more popular to cosplay...they can be heroines or lady villains, but the common theme is that regardless of whether she's a "good" or "bad" girl as I define it, she rises above the constraints and obligations others would put on her, which can include romantic and/or sexual, but is not at all limited to that. A friend of mine also named her daughter after one such popular character. But that's another topic.)

Correct me on this if I'm wrong, but the award-winning Love the Way You Lie was popular among men and women, and given how that seemed to play for months on a constant basis (drove me nuts at the time) I'd see it as another sign that the attraction to the unhealthy is not restricted to any one gender.

I could also point out that plenty of gay & lesbian relationships are abusive, violent, and dysfunctional as well, and cheating is common (including among lesbians, just as with straight women).

Given many here who identify as feminist (and of a type I reject--not that I reject feminism as a whole, but certainly some ideas presented as feminist in this thread), I feel obliged to point out that the woman in Love the Way you Lie was also very violent and dysfunctional as well. (She was also not a prostitute. She was essentially a female version of the guy, or as their relationship is described in the song, when a tornado meets a volcano. I consider him a bad boy, and her a bad girl, and neither one should be in a relationship until they gained some impulse control and worked out their inner-demons and overcame their substance abuse problems which are likely tied to their inner demons.)
 
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Ethan Reigns

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With all the talk about prostitution, there was an Oriental girl in my daughter's graduate school class who made her living as a prostitute. When the school found out, they offered her loans and bursaries but she refused them and said she liked what she was doing. My daughter graduated with a Master of Arts in Mythology with over $40,000 debt. This other girl not only was debt-free, she paid $52,000 cash for a houseboat as soon as she graduated and lived debt-free. Dirt cheap compared to housing prices in Victoria BC and marina fees carried for a small fraction of property taxes. She later moved to Ontario and married a guy who knew all about her past.

Not everyone who is a prostitute is a victim, even though we ascribe victimhood to almost anyone these days. I would not describe her as a bad girl - she was intelligent and financially astute and was not likely to cause trouble for her husband or anyone else.
 

spikenbuffy

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I would like to add that it's not as cut dry about healthy & unhealthy ships on TV, some people can love both on TV. Some people hate Spuffy but love Delena or Chuck & Blair or whatever toxic ships on TV. I know someone who loves Bangel, Spuffy & Stelena but Delena.
 

TriBel

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[B]Priceless[/B] Have you heard of the Nordic Model?

No but I've seen the film. 🙂 Sorry - straight face on. You mean this: "The Nordic Model approach to prostitution (sometimes also known as the Sex Buyer Law, or the Swedish, Abolitionist, or Equality Model) decriminalises all those who are prostituted, provides support services to help them exit, and makes buying people for sex a criminal offence, in order to reduce the demand that drives .." Yes...I nearly mentioned it. And I wasn't being facetious when I said I'd seen the film. Lukas Moodysson's Lilya 4-Ever was used in the roadshow to promote it (researching the film is how I know about the model. It's how I know about most things). I do/don't recommend it to you. I had a male "mature" student say it made him embarrassed to be a man (personally, I think it's more complicated than this).
 
Priceless
Priceless
I don't know the model inside or out, but what I have read I like. Not seen the film. Not heard of the film :)

AngelBuffy

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And you could say the same of the Angel/Buffy relationship and all of its own intended cliches, but as this was not meant to be a ship-war thread, I'll leave it at that.

Maybe that would be true if Spuffy only existed in S6; it doesn't. And I personally prefer anything but their sexual encounters over their sexual encounters.

Not sure where you see the irony in it, plenty of iconic couples don't have many sex scenes, simply because it's network TV.

Look, if we take out the ship-war element, forget for a moment that I'm a Spuffy shipper (because that actually has nothing to do with why I don't like Bangel) then you have to understand that, when we call Bangel or Angel boring, we don't mean because 'their relationship is too healthy' or 'there's not enough drama to keep my attention'. Boring literally just means boring; on BtVS Angel is a character made of cardboard, we know next to nothing about him because he's not there to be anything other than a way to further Buffy's arc. He starts getting slightly more stuff (and him being evil doesn't count, that's not Angel, right?) in S3, but that's because they were already setting up for the spin-off by then.

I fully agree that healthy does not equal boring in TV, but there's a fine line between boring and bland, imo.

not going to get into a big ship argument, its been done to death but i would say angel and buffy would have been cliche if not for the unpredictable two things prevented it from been a cliche


1. the fantastic angelus story arc that is considered the best story arc of the entire show

Joss even said, this was when the show became a game changer for TV and in the outside world, this arc is what elevated buffy to one of the best shows on tv. like we fans say, season 2 is when the show took of.


2. the crash landing reality break up, not many shows ended a love story the way buffy and angel did even other super couple that involved vampire and human in the end had the girl turn into a vampire to live happily evert after with the boy. Vampire diaries, twilight.


if we were going to use shipping. Angel was more of a the harsh reality of being in love with a vampire. spike was the ultitmate fantasy and that is tired to bad boys characcters. they present a fantasy to girls and women.
 
Puppet
Puppet
Agree to completely disagree, nothing about Bangel was original, including those two points.

emspace

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I’m not disagreeing with you on the “happy hooker” point (especially in anything set in present day), but there is an argument to be made that in earlier centuries this was the one area where Women could make their own money or own their own business. Not saying it‘s right or wrong.
Yeah, but again, how much of a choice is that really? It's not really choosing sex because they enjoyed sex; it's choosing sex because that's the only "power" they had. But power in that context was really kind of a bait and switch. It was dangerous work, not only from the immediate threat of violence, but from the constant threat of disease.

But then again...I'm backing up the train here...it's possible we're all talking concurrently about parallel ideas. On one hand, there's the concept here of empowerment and making money and this being one of the few avenues available to women for attainment of these goals. And on another hand, there's the argument that the work was dangerous and not truly empowering. Well, I don't really think these ideas are mutually exclusive; I think they it may be possible for both (and other) ideas to coexist.

At any rate, and to get back to the original subject, which I believe had something to do with Bangel and bad girls...the thing I enjoyed about watching Buffy was that it kind of neatly encapsulated some pretty complex ideas, without minimizing them to triviality. In the case of Angel and Buffy, I felt like it was such a great allegory for the intensity that first love and first sex brings. As well as looping in the forbidden love angle (which, I don't care how many times that gets used, it never gets old for me). But that's the beauty of a metaphor: extrapolating out a metaphor and applying it to real life could take you in any direction, none of which are exactly wrong or right, but really just helpful in making sense of your particular situation or a situation you're familiar with.

In my personal experience, there was no Angel, only Spike. And it ended up being a futile battle to "tame him" and "make him be a better man". I felt a little ill-served by all the fantasies and fairy-tales out there. But I wasn't angry with the people who wrote them, just mad at myself for being such a dupe.
 

Antho

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In my personal experience, there was no Angel, only Spike. And it ended up being a futile battle to "tame him" and "make him be a better man". I felt a little ill-served by all the fantasies and fairy-tales out there. But I wasn't angry with the people who wrote them, just mad at myself for being such a dupe.
Do you mean you had à Spike in your life, à kinda Spuffy relationship ? I’m sorry English is not my first langage and I’m not sure at 💯 I understand what you really mean.
 

emspace

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Do you mean you had à Spike in your life, à kinda Spuffy relationship ? I’m sorry English is not my first langage and I’m not sure at 💯 I understand what you really mean.
Yes, that's what I meant, Antho. No worries! I was being a little oblique there.
 
Antho
Antho
Spuffy was unhealthy at the beginning but in the end it becomes a more healthy relationship. It started Bad but evolves in a good way in a sense (even if i still have my problems with that relationship).. is that the same thing for you ?
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