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Angel/Illyria - why not?

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥
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#22
I'm actually open to the many different couples. Be it: F/F M/M and of course F/M - I have nothing against gay or lesbians also same-sex love. For me when I was a child I also grow up and watching Tillow developed - and for me it's a normal thing. Every single person should decide for himself what is right for him. As long as you are happy.


Seriously, as much as I like the two of them. I love Angel. Illyria is another thing. And so far I have not forgiven what "it" did to Fred. Maybe "it" is a good ally. Also for me is Angel/Illyria too hard to bear. That does not work.

Maybe it's because I love my Cangel too much. I shudder when I only think that the two have something with each other! Please can I quickly forget this thought and pretend that I have never thought of it.
 
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Sineya
#23
OK, let's check out some screenplay ideas knowing from the comics that Fred is not gone and can come back at erratic times:

Day. Int. Angel's bedroom.

Fred: Oh, I'm back. Where am I ?

She looks aside to see that she is in Angel's bed and Angel is asleep beside her.

Fred: What am I doing here? Angel? Angel, what's going on?

Angel wakes up looking at peace.

Angel: Oh, hi, welcome back.

Fred: Did we do something here that...

Fred feels her nether regions that have a sticky wetness.

Fred: Angel? Angel! Did you have sex with me?

Angel: It was Illyria when we went to bed.

Fred: You mean you took advantage of me when I wasn't around to say anything? We share the same body! Don't you get it?

Angel: Hey, Illyria and I seem to be getting along these days and you are hardly ever here...

Fred: What if you got me pregnant?

Angel: Our kid will be handsome or beautiful.

Fred: In what alternate universe would you think I want a child? Do you think Illyria would ever be a good mother? Does she even know which end of a baby is up? And since when did I ever give you permission to get inside of me?

Angel: Don't make such a big deal out of it. Like I said, it wasn't you last night.

Fred: Don't make a big deal out of it? Does my existence not matter to you? Well, maybe yours shouldn't continue!"

Fred pulls the curtains aside to reveal bright sunlight streaming in. Angel dives under the bed.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
If he was that much of a jerk, he'd be smart enough to say, "I'm sorry, but it was the only way to save you, to get you back." (And if he was evil then he'd research a way to get Illyria back.) Fred would fall for it.
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
The writers didn't think it was rape when Faith-in-Buffy screwed a man so they wouldn't with Illyria-in-Fred.

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#25
Fred said in s11 that she has the ability to stop Illyria from doing something she doesn't want to do. Implying that she was consenting to whatever happened between Angel and Illyria.

It's still too much for me to wrap my head around in terms of who is there and who is not and who gets off and whatever but at least we know that it is not an issue of Fred having no agency. She does and she is choosing to allow whatever happens... happen.
 
HoppyHippy
HoppyHippy
Thanks for reading the comics, I always enjoy your posts about them :)

Taake

Maybe it was taquitos. Maybe he lived for taquitos
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Black Thorn
#26
Ok, so I got busy last night but will try to get into this thread again today :)

Because Angel should have been with Cordy and if she were still in the picture in that season then Angel and Illyria would have never happened.
Illyria should have been with Spike, not Angel. They had a much better dynamic, and damn it but they were actually kinda cute together.
Angel and Illyria seemed rather pedestrian and boring.

As an aside. I just noticed the 'stitching' on the power letters. I like it even more now.
But just because they seem pedestrian and boring doesn't mean they have to be, it's all in the writing. And thanks.

Because, while Angel may be somewhat apart from humanity, Illyria is in a whole different ball park. Angel and Buffy worked, because they met each other half way. Angel was apart, while Buffy was within, but felt alienated. There is nothing for Angel to gain from forming a relationship with an ancient monster trapped in Fred's body.

It was interesting to see Wes and Illyria explore their different traumas together. Sure, Angel has plenty of trauma, but it is not so dire that Illyria is the only one who can understand him. Angel needs to heal, not wallow in his otherness.

And now, the Buffy comics are going to end with Angel and Illyria together, because that pair was the latest whim of the writers the year that Fox decided to revoke Dark Horse's Buffy license. It is an accident of circumstance.
I do agree that it seems like a whim and not really well planned. They could've put a lot more effort into it if they wanted to make it happen. I personally felt that during the show Illyria had great chemistry with Wesley and Spike, so it's not like they can't create relationships around her, but with Angel it seems - to me - like it hasn't really worked because they haven't put enough effort into building the relationship.

I'll mention it down below too, but Illyria has been living in/with humanity for quite some time now - is it not possible for her to "reform" and become more human-like, the way we've seen other demons/monsters do on the show?

Angel needs to heal, not wallow in his otherness.
But you just said that Angel was alienated even with Buffy, or felt alienated rather. Isn't that wallowing more in your otherness if you're getting into relationships where you are eternally the 'other'/less human part? Couldn't he gain comfort and healing from being part of a pair where they are both 'other', both part human and part demon?


I also feel like Angel and Fred have more in common now that she knows what it's like to share her body with a violent demon. Plus, they have the loss of their big loves with Buffy and Wesley to bond them. And I think the scientist in Fred would be very intrigued by how vamps work...;)

So I think we have the makings of a compelling thruple.
This was something akin to what I was thinking about them. And as @Mrs Gordo mentioned we know Fred has agency so it's not quite like @Ethan Reigns scene ;)
It's not optimal but they do share bonds that make them able to relate, so maybe it's more Fred-Illyria-Angel I like more than Angel and Illyria exclusively.


Because ALL of Angel's close relationships have been with people who keep him grounded with humanity. Not even just his romantic ones (but yeah, all his romances as well).

Illyria has nothing in common with Buffy, Doyle, Cordy, Wesley, Faith, Nina or any other; she is a disconnect, almost totally alien, apart from the world and everything in it. Angel NEVER needs that.
And I refuse to believe that he would come to have feelings for somebody who doesn't value their own humanity and compassion at least as much as he does.

I loathe this pairing; its stupid and witless and clumsy. Urgh.
But why is it so impossible for Illyria to become connected to the world? Yes she was introduced as wholly alien, but this the verse where vampires like Spike, Drusilla, James and Elisabeth share very real human feelings even though their species was originally introduced as callous demons to be killed at sight. A demon takes over your body, blah blah, speeches. If these demons can evolve in the body they're inhabiting, why couldn't Illyria be influenced by the body she is in and the world she's now living in? Even Glory was influenced by Ben, wasn't she? She mentions at some point with Dawn that she's too 'soft' or something. So the surroundings as well as the company you keep seems to matter in this verse and can change even the most cold-hearted demon or god into something more human and less other.

And maybe Angel needs to be the one grounding someone else in humanity now? Maybe he has learned from his previous relationships? None of which, the romantic ones, exactly worked out, and perhaps aren't the right fit for him at this point in time?
 

Taake

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Black Thorn
#27
Because it's WEIRD!
Haha, lots of things are weird! Embrace the weird!
Like this:
Willow_Goddesses_and_Monsters_Chen_cover.jpg
They still went there though :)


Random thought, now that we were talking about Angel's and Illyria's otherness earlier in the thread - if the apart from humanity is such a problem - isn't Dawn and Xander a super problem? Didn't Dawn start to fade when magic left the world or something? Sure she is, technically, human. But she's also technically not as she is created out of a magical ball of energy. What makes her otherness acceptable - is it that she looks and acts more human?

I'm not looking to annoy Dawn fans, I'm just wondering. She is after all pretty 'other' too, even though it seems she's fully human and has always been in Buffy's life because of the fake memories.
 

Bluebird

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#28
Oh man, the comics sound awful these days. Although I suppose, in context of the format, it's pretty normal shenanigans.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#29
But you just said that Angel was alienated even with Buffy, or felt alienated rather. Isn't that wallowing more in your otherness if you're getting into relationships where you are eternally the 'other'/less human part? Couldn't he gain comfort and healing from being part of a pair where they are both 'other', both part human and part demon?
You misunderstood me. I did not mean to say that Buffy made Angel feel apart, quite the opposite. What I meant to say was: Angel lives outside normal society, but longs to be let in. Buffy is a part of society, and she is pretty and smart and sociable and all of that good stuff, but there is a part of her that feels uncomfortable being in this centre and longs to step outside for a bit.

So they meet on the threshold ... windowsill.

Illirya's got the violence, but that is pretty much all she has going for her, and Angel's already got that down because ... vampire. Angel going with Illyria feels like giving up. Cordelia and Nina weren't great romances, but at least they made sense for the character.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
Agree except for Cordelia making sense, the writers practically give Angel amnesia about Buffy, the happiness clause, etc.

Taake

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#30
You misunderstood me. I did not mean to say that Buffy made Angel feel apart, quite the opposite. What I meant to say was: Angel lives outside normal society, but longs to be let in. Buffy is a part of society, and she is pretty and smart and sociable and all of that good stuff, but there is a part of her that feels uncomfortable being in this centre and longs to step outside for a bit.

So they meet on the threshold ... windowsill.

Illirya's got the violence, but that is pretty much all she has going for her, and Angel's already got that down because ... vampire. Angel going with Illyria feels like giving up. Cordelia and Nina weren't great romances, but at least they made sense for the character.
Oh, sorry, I did misunderstand that.
I see. Maybe I like it because it's a bit out of character, that he should be shaken up a bit and not in a Twilight/the seed/kill Giles kind of a way. With Illyria it feels like they're at least trying something new with him. (Though in a very rushed and limited fashion which is a mistake)
 
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#31
Just to clarify for myself (again, this is based on the show, not the comics), I'm seeing Illyria as too alien in psychology as opposed to her supernatural qualities. Dawn is completely different as she has human psychology.

And I guess it's not so much that I'm opposed to it, just that I find it too unbelievable. Technically speaking, I'd prefer it over Cangel (at least the Cangel we got). ;):p
 

Taake

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Black Thorn
#32
Just to clarify for myself (again, this is based on the show, not the comics), I'm seeing Illyria as too alien in psychology as opposed to her supernatural qualities. Dawn is completely different as she has human psychology.

And I guess it's not so much that I'm opposed to it, just that I find it too unbelievable. Technically speaking, I'd prefer it over Cangel (at least the Cangel we got). ;):p
So it's more that she/it just works completely differently then even say, vampires (who have a rather human psychology too)? But she did connect with Wesley on an emotional level, kind of. That's showing seeds of possible change, right? (Not trying to change your mind, just saying)

Maybe it's harder to make it work without the chemistry on the screen though, where Amy Acker made Illyria come alive. A kind of cold character tends to be even colder on paper.
 
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#33
So it's more that she/it just works completely differently then even say, vampires (who have a rather human psychology too)? But she did connect with Wesley on an emotional level, kind of. That's showing seeds of possible change, right? (Not trying to change your mind, just saying)
One thing I loved about Wesley's death scene is how Illyria says...she's not sure...and Wes says, "Concerned?"

"I think so." (Or words to that effect.) She is surprised and never felt anything like that before.

While it opens the door to the possibility that Illyria is capable of love, Illyria is still inhuman, and not like a mere demon capable of love and affection (as even soulless vampires are). She was able to fool Fred's family while feeling nothing, not compassion or concern (as it was so alien as she comes to a dying Wesley). To her, imitating Fred was just an alien experiment, and she called upon Fred's neural pathways to access the personality to augment the illusion but she was completely disconnected from it all the same. Vulcans, Caradassians, and even 7 0f 9 were much closer to being human like in their psychology while Illyria was on a completely different level.

To me, Illyria falling for Angel (or even responding to his romantic gestures in a way that wasn't clinically detached) would feel like a human being falling in romantic love with a lower form animal, even if they were trapped in the body of one. Like say if Amy managed to keep the majority of her awareness of her human identity while in rat form then falling in love with another rat as she could a human (and in Illyria's case, she presumably never experienced such human emotions at all, so it would be even more bizarre in her case). I just don't see it happening.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Ha! I also referenced 7 of 9!

Mrs Gordo

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#34
But why is it so impossible for Illyria to become connected to the world?
And maybe Angel needs to be the one grounding someone else in humanity now? Maybe he has learned from his previous relationships?
I think my problem with this is that it assumes the characters are different than the characters we have right now. It isn’t impossible for Illyria to become “more connected” to humanity but none of the story thus far has shown us that she is has connected in a big way. She speaks and acts as if she were decidedly not human. Now that’s not to say she isn’t more human than she was on he show, I’d agree she has been (rather abruptly I might add) been given some more compassion and she seems more curious about humanity. I’d probably compare her to early seasons Seven of Nine from Star Trek Voyager. She has a long way to go.

And Angel, certainly hasn’t become fully integrated comfortably into everyday human life. He made great strides in AtS but all of that was undercut by Hell-A. Then in AtF he walks away alone. And that is followed by the Twilight disaster where after that he was basically catatonic and Faith was his only friend. He has purposefully kept himself away from Connor because he thinks Connor is better off without him.

Honestly, Angel’s personality (not just his demon nature) is one that easily alienates and isolates him from others. Which is why people like Buffy who understand the feeling of isolation but who are better at fighting those urges to close yourself off, is a good fit for him. Angel never really believes he is capable or deserving of love and affection because he thinks he is a monster (think of how Darla taunted him with that in Angel, or how embarrassed he is of his vampire visage in WML, or how he says he has nothing to offer Cordy in WitW or how he doesn’t believe that Nina is interested in him at first.) And so to pair him with a character that from everything that we have seen may not even be capable of demonstrating love or affection, that seems a bit sad. And like @WillowFromBuffy it does sorda feel like giving up. Because Illyria (as she has been written thus far) isn’t going to show affection, warmth and human tenderness.

And as much as I love Angel he is not in a place right now, nor will he arguably be in the near future, to be the best human liaison for Illyria, to help her be more a part of a world he himself feels isolated from.
 

Grace

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#35
And as much as I love Angel he is not in a place right now, nor will he arguably be in the near future, to be the best human liaison for Illyria, to help her be more a part of a world he himself feels isolated from.
And she doesn’t really need him to be, honestly. Fred is much better for that, because Illyria does seem to be learning from her and picking up some of her emotions. Illyria abruptly started showing compassion and regret and empathy in Season 11 and I think we were supposed to see it as the two of them becoming more symbiotic. They could communicate with each other and make decisions about who should be “driving” at any given time.

Which is part of why focusing the relationship on just Angel/Illyria is so annoying. We need to know how Fred plays into it.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
#36
But why is it so impossible for Illyria to become connected to the world? Yes she was introduced as wholly alien, but this the verse where vampires like Spike, Drusilla, James and Elisabeth share very real human feelings even though their species was originally introduced as callous demons to be killed at sight.
But vampires are the most human kind-of demons, other demons think so (considerering them hybrid abominations) and even vampires consider themselves 'human plus'. They have human wants and desires. Same with some demons.

Old ones predate humanity, they are supposed to be alien in their outlook and that's mostly what we've seen both on the show and in the comics.

If these demons can evolve in the body they're inhabiting, why couldn't Illyria be influenced by the body she is in and the world she's now living in? Even Glory was influenced by Ben, wasn't she?
Ben was a prison, Fred was a victim, a vessel. Surely the original intent is important to how the character later develops.
Glory's 'merging' with Ben was a termporary side-effect or an approaching ritual, nothing more. If the writers are gonna say that Fred and Illyria share the same body, that is different from saying that Fred's soul (or remnant or whatever) is influencing her. That's what AtS seemed to imply and then it was switched.

Add to that that Glory was distinctly human in many of her personality traits; luxury accomodation, clothes, shoes and the like; would an actual pure Hellgod really be interested in those things? No, becasue Glory was bound in human form. Illyria was not bound in human form, she just took the shell of one.
Illyria wasn't ever itnerested in human trappings.

And maybe Angel needs to be the one grounding someone else in humanity now?
Meh, I can see him doing this for another vampire but not for something that considers humanity to be bacteria/food/worship and hasn't really shifted it's/her overall perspective in that regard. Illyria might've- briefly- cared for Wesley but that's it as far as character progression goes.

Also- another factor is that the execution of this has been the worst of any possible executions. I could've bought Illria/Spike becasue of how it was wriiten and developed on the show and in AtF. From what I've read Angle/Illyria is incredibly shallow for primarily comic purposes.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
JM said he thought while filming AtS s5 it was planning Spike/Illyria.

Grace

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#37
Meh, I can see him doing this for another vampire but not for something that considers humanity to be bacteria/food/worship and hasn't really shifted it's/her overall perspective in that regard. Illyria might've- briefly- cared for Wesley but that's it as far as character progression goes.
I *do* think that Illyria has shifted her perspective in this regard. I'm not saying it's the most organic journey (because it hasn't been), but in Season 12 #2, she volunteers to stay in the future — a world she has zero connection to — to prevent Harth from turning it into a demon playground. Even Angel, the king of painful sacrifices, thinks that's too much and rejects that plan (along with Buffy's plan to exile herself to a demon dimension forever to stop Harth in the present). And though it's not really clear what her feelings are, Illyria clearly does have feelings for Angel. She felt empathy for him in Season 11. She agrees to do things because he asks them of her in Season 12.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#38
And that’s another thing. Does Illyria want to be human or does she want to be “more human”? Does she have a choice with Fred?

I gotta say I’m still stuck on the Fred thing. No one has explained how Fred was really back or in what capacity she was back. I guess I need more. Where is the soul in all this? Is there one?
 

Mrs Gordo

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#39
Yeah Illyria does seem to have a new perspective on humanity and this world in terms of forming attachments throughout the comics from Wesley, Spike, Angel. As well as her new found feeling of guilt over her past and now she seems to be on the side of let’s save this world. Most of this is built up is through the comics and whaddaya gonna do the comics writing is subpar so we gotta find our own way of filling in the gaps.

So I’m with them on the fact that Illyria doesn’t think that humans or people on earth are pond scum. But I don’t think we are at the point where she wants to be part of them or of this world (not saying that’s the argument being made).

Angel is the The Little Mermaid (yes that’s right). He wants to be part of that world. He longs to be human, to belong, to have a family, etc. He values humanity above all else. And yet he feels separate from it.

I guess for me it’s two fold, first I don’t see Angel being emotionally interested in someone that is so inhumane. And then, secondly, I don’t like what this says narratively about Angel’s journey towards finding a connection to those people in this world he is meant to help.
 

Grace

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#40
And then, secondly, I don’t like what this says narratively about Angel’s journey towards finding a connection to those people in this world he is meant to help.
Do you think it signals that Angel has given up, essentially? Do you think he feels post-Twilight that Illyria is basically the only being who can accept him?
 
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