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Angel needed a soul to love Buffy

Toyax88

Townie
Joined
Oct 27, 2021
Messages
2
Age
33
In my opinion that’s all I saw. And he wasn’t that good at it neither. I liked him before I saw her real too shop with Spike. I wasn’t even a Spike fan. And when i saw the sacrifices and saw that Angel seem to always have some kind of excuse I came up with my answer. Angel left Buffy to give a better life. But if slayers were known to not live past 21, then why would he abandon her like that? It’s like he never even tried to make it work. He just wanted the focus off of him after he did bs to her. If he truly loved that girl, he’d let her live in peace instead of popping up every blue moon. Spike to me just went with his gut. He waited for her to come around. But Buffy occasionally did forget that he’s a demon. I blame Angel for that too 😂. It’s like Angel sold Buffy this fabricated dream on vampires. He’s not a demon but everyone else is? 🤔… I’m kind of rambling but I like when Spike said that Buffy treated him like a man. It could go either way with that. But honestly I think Buffy was infatuated or even obsessed with Angel and the pain. And that’s why it never worked with Riley. She’s use to pain.
 

Faded90

Scooby
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Apr 2, 2020
Messages
894
Age
63
‘He waited for her to come around’

I’d say that is the complete opposite of Spike’s actions regarding Buffy. Spike never respects her autonomy or right to make her own decisions. When she tells him she’s not interested or it’s over he’s constantly looking for a way to overrule that and make her be with him. Also does Angel keep popping up? I think probably the only time this happens is in S4 then they make an agreement to not do that anymore. For the rest of the series the only times Angel pops up again is to support after her Mother’s death (which she is grateful for), he calls her following her death and they mutually agree to meet and then S7 when he has something in the fight against The First which she is again grateful for

Probably my biggest pet hate throughout the show is the fact the men in her life are constantly making decisions for her ‘for her own good’. Spike is absolutely no exception to that, him getting a soul ‘for her’ is a chain around her neck that makes her feel like she owes him one. This is most noticeable in Get it Done in one of the only occasions where she pulls him on the fact he’s being a complete liability to her and he retorts ‘the soul, the changes it’s what you wanted’ because he genuinely can’t believe that she’d ever pull him when he did this ‘for her’. Infact Buffy never said she wanted him to change or get a soul, she said plenty of times she wanted him to leave her alone. Buffy even in S6 never says a single thing saying she wants him to change or if he did change that would mean they could be together. She doesn’t. She repeatedly says that she’s basically accepted that this is what he is. That’s what As You Were ended with ‘that’s just you. I should have remembered’ - it’s basically the equivalent of her shrugging ‘yeah you’re always going to be a soulless vampire I know that’ but she still never says she wants him to get a soul. Infact I don’t think she even seems to see it as a possibility. But Spike really does seem to think this is something he has over her.

Also Spike ‘left’ her just like Angel did when he decided not to seek her out in Angel S5. His reasoning is even that he’d prefer she saw him as a hero rather than back. Because his own feelings and ego always come before hers. He makes these decisions that overrule what she wants just as much as Angel - infact even more so!
 

WillowsFaith

Potential
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
123
Age
28
Not really, even when Angel lost his soul he loved Buffy. An obsessive, Psychotic love, but still a love nonetheless
 

KaitKat

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Aug 9, 2021
Messages
253
Age
29
Both Angel and Spike we’re just obsessed with Buffy without their souls and neither truly loved her until they had a soul.

Angel did leave Buffy in part so that she can have a normal life and I do want to point out that she was happy and angst free in Season 4 he also left because of his curse. The two of them kept going round and round in Season 3 so he left before they did something stupid that could once again unleash Angelus that’s one of the few responsible choices that he made prior to him getting his own show.

In Pangs he showed up because his friend had a vision of her in trouble, he took great care not to interfere with her life. I’m legit not sure why he felt the need to show up and apologize in the Yoko Factor but she did just show up to LA herself. Other than that he shows up at her mother’s funeral which she’s grateful for and to give her the thing needed to defeat The First.

As far as Buffy forgetting Spike was a demon I don’t see it. She was sleeping with him as a way to self harm. Sex and violence were so married in that relationship because she was disgusted with herself for sleeping with him.

Buffy sleeping with Spike is also not remotely Angel’s fault, he didn’t sell her a fabricated version of vampires.

I’m not even a Bangel shipper but I think there is more to his character than this post suggest.
 

Cohen

Hellhound
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
1,927
Location
Neptune, California
As far as Buffy forgetting Spike was a demon I don’t see it. She was sleeping with him as a way to self harm. Sex and violence were so married in that relationship because she was disgusted with herself for sleeping with him.
This is very evident from their first kiss in OMWF, where she literally says "I just want to feel" because she is depressed with coming back to earth after she was at peace. Season 6 gets a lot of hate from the darkness of the season, but it is very reflective of that young adult turn your twenties where life isn't what you expected it to be, and you get consumed with the exact wrong things (possible marriage, addiction, depression), and you need help to get out of these abysses.
 

KaitKat

Potential
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Aug 9, 2021
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253
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This is very evident from their first kiss in OMWF, where she literally says "I just want to feel" because she is depressed with coming back to earth after she was at peace. Season 6 gets a lot of hate from the darkness of the season, but it is very reflective of that young adult turn your twenties where life isn't what you expected it to be, and you get consumed with the exact wrong things (possible marriage, addiction, depression), and you need help to get out of these abysses.


I actually agree that it is a realistic portrayal of adulthood not being rainbows and butterflies. I was actually thinking about why I hated the season so much the other day, I actually think Season 2 and 3 are dark as well but I love them and so honestly think it’s simply because it’s the only thing going on that season so it felt like it drug on to me. It is very gritty and I don’t think anyone is out of character though.
 

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
211
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51
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'Angel needed a soul to love Buffy' which I count as great because Spike loving Buffy WITHOUT a soul was not a good thing and both of them eventually realises this.

I really do think too much value is put on Spike loving Buffy soulless when it was so detrimental to her mental wellbeing with the ongoing trauma from coming back fromthe dead. It ended up not helping her at all and by Tara having to really talk to her was there some light at the end of the tunnel for Buffy.

Buffy knows that Spike 'loving her without a soul is harmful for her well being and she only begins to accept him when he gets a soul and that is really when they start to build something genuine for themselves and it wouldn't have been possible without Spike being souled and even he acknowledges this by understanding how much healthy that he loves her with a soul compare to not having a soul.
So Buffy and Spike would never have continued on if he HADN'T got a soul.

So I'm so good with Angelus not loving buffy without a soul as I never view him as feeling that strongly about Buffy because of what happened between Angelus and Dru and how his obsession with her and what it drove him to do. But I guess it was easier to break Dru than Buffy and ultimately he wasn't going to win and Angelus doesn't like to lose which is why he gave up on breaking Buffy himself with his mind games and instead wanted to turn the world to hell!

And no Buffy didn't forget Spike was a vampire just because she treated him with kindness and compassion and empathy. Certainly not with the house falling sex, the having him beside her in her battles when she needed him or giving him the amulet chain.

And the thing with both Buffy and Angel is that they both made decisions and the other decided to go along with it even if they had misgivings or felt differently.....
E.g Buffy deciding she wanted to have sex with Angel at that moment and him being unsure that it was right time.
Buffy telling Angel they can't be friends because of their feelings for one another and her saying to him that if Angel could tell her he didn't love her then they could. Of course he couldn't but he wasn't the one walking away from their relationship as friends, she had decided that for herself and for him.
Then with Angel, the decisions of them breaking up for good in the third series/season of BTVS and deciding to become a vampire again and end their reunion in ATS.
They both did this to one another, but the good thing with Buffy and Angel was that they always seem to understand why the other had done it and believed it was the right thing in the end even with the hurt and the cost to them being together.

So this BAngel fan is certainly fine with soulless Angelus aka Angelus not 'loving' Buffy with his soul because what a frightening prospect that would be for all concerned!!
 

thrasherpix

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Mar 13, 2016
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39
I disagree that season 6 is realistic, even as a metaphor.

I say that as someone who was raised with addiction around me, from alcoholics to heroin, knew (and know) self-harmers, and was in poverty in my early 20s when I first saw s6, and I did not relate to its depiction. It felt after school special at times rather than realistic, and definitely had the feel of being written by people in gated communities who write what they imagine it to be like. (And I'm avoiding a bunch of nitpicking.)

I enjoy shows that are much darker. Heck, I consider s2 and s5 darker than than s6...while I can see it as debatable up to the end (but s6 had some light eps, and hokey ones, as well), I don't see how anyone could see s6's ending as darker than 2 and 5.

I just get tired of told I don't like it because it's too dark for me. That's not true for me, and I don't think for many others who also don't care for it. If it was the darkness of it, I'd have tuned out before season 6.



That said, I do think Buffy has abandonment issues that cause her to make bad decisions (I've known men and women both like that, and they'd often been abandoned by a parent of their preferred gender when young, as Buffy was), but it's a subconscious attempt to resolve it (and a bad way, but in that at least, it's tragically realistic), which also makes it hard for me to think of any of her love interests as her "one true pairing." Not to say she didn't feel genuine love and affection for them.

Spike knew love as a demon, it was just a twisted, selfish (though he did make sacrifices, as Dru did) type.

Angelus was obviously obsessed with Buffy which strikes me as the demon warping what was there before, but it could be as he said, Buffy made him feel human and that's not something he'd forgive. (If it had been up to me, season 2 would've been FAR darker to the point that it wouldn't have been allowed on Prime Time. And I already consider it darker than season 6.)

One Bangel scene in particular that annoyed me was his immature jealousy of Xander (someone here once wrote an alternate scene that ended with Angel as dust, and I liked it), though Angel dismisses Xander as "just a kid." Buffy then asks the relevant question of is she just a kid to him? He never answers. (I cut Angel a lot of slack for "robbing the cradle" given both how Angel/Liam would've been raised to see the world combined with Buffy's unique circumstances, but this and another scene make it hard at times.)

I was actually relieved to see Angel being a jerk to his people (however protective he was of them) on his own show as at least then his patronizing and paternalistic behavior comes off as normal for him to everyone, rather than because he sees Buffy as a kid.
 
KaitKat
KaitKat
I always love reading your opinions on things. You always have a wonderful well worded perspective.

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Sineya
It;s fair to say that Liam never loved romantically, so Angelus did not know love, not even demonic love. To me, this makes Angel's love of Buffy (and others) more remarkable. With a soul he is complete, able to love and have friends, lovers, even a son; a rich emotional life even after Buffy, his romantic 'ever after'.

However William was a romantic, in love with love, and so the demon could love, or understood/aped a facsimile of it. And so it loved Drusilla for over a century before...throwing her over for somebody else after what? a two-year separation? Well, we all see how outstanding demon-love is, not deeply, deeply shallow. Its almost like Spike is still just in love with being in love, even with a soul he's lost without a woman to pine after.
 

KaitKat

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Well, we all see how outstanding demon-love is, not deeply, deeply shallow. Its almost like Spike is still just in love with being in love, even with a soul he's lost without a woman to pine after.


That’s the best explanation of how Spike the soulless demon loves that I’ve seen. It always came across as obsession rather than love to me. I find his relationships with Dawn and Joyce more genuine along with the friendships he formed in Angel.
 

Toyax88

Townie
Joined
Oct 27, 2021
Messages
2
Age
33
Thank you all for the feed back! Sorry it took me so long to reply. I honestly feel like Angel was her first love and that’s it. The right guy for her to me was Riley. Spike came when she was in adulthood. I guess I like aggressive guys. Not the guys that will leave when I tell them. Those are the vibes I get from Angel.
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
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There's...a lot going on this post so I'll start with my response to one part:

I’m kind of rambling but I like when Spike said that Buffy treated him like a man. It could go either way with that. But honestly I think Buffy was infatuated or even obsessed with Angel and the pain. And that’s why it never worked with Riley. She’s use to pain.

Spike and Buffy's relationship has a strong base because they mutually respect each other. Sadly, Angel never really respected Buffy. If he had, he wouldn't have felt the need to take away her agency and make decisions for her. What Spike meant by that she "treated him like a man" was that she respected his needs, wishes and opinion. Like you would a friend.

Yes, on some level Buffy believed that love had to be dramatic and painful, because that's what she experienced with Angel. But as she had and navigated other relationships, she learned that it didn't have to be like that. And yes of course Buffy was infatuated with Angel, as he was with her. That's why it was so entirely toxic and had no chance of surviving. Their expectations for eachother were completely unrealistic.
 

ILLYRIAN

Druish Pervonian Wizard
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Black Thorn
Such a lot was placed on having a soul, bloody stupid if you ask me. I take it that in the series there was no prisons, no people who were mass murderers - you know, people who had souls.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Sadly, Angel never really respected Buffy. If he had, he wouldn't have felt the need to take away her agency and make decisions for her.

Hm, could you give examples of Angel taking away Buffy's agency?

What Spike meant by that she "treated him like a man" was that she respected his needs, wishes and opinion. Like you would a friend.

Since this is in reference to S5 can you honestly say that Buffy and Spike treated each other with respect in S6? Or even 'Get It Done' in S7?
 
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