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Angel S1 Watch-through With My Niece

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by thetopher, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. GwenRaiden

    GwenRaiden AKA Apology Girl

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    Black Thorn
    I remember the first time I saw that and the visions didn't automatically come to mind for me either (I am dense) --

    Was that breath freshener?
     
  2. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Totally agree. I was never convinced that giving her the visions and the whole darker Cordelia angle was the best thing for the character.

    Yeah Four has a bad history with things like that. I remember when they used to show Wrestling PPV's and would put them on a ten minute delay so they could censor any blood or serious looking violence even though it was on at ONE IN THE MORNING!:eek:

    IWRY was really hit and miss for me. The concept was quite cool and there are some funny and powerful moments, but also I felt like it was a regression for both Angel and Buffy and at times felt too melodramatic. And Cordy despite having some great lines was wasted IMO.

    Should be seeing Hero tomorrow so will comment then.
     
  3. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Agreed. Like I said total shipper-bait. Wish-fulfillment and melodrama and not making much sense. The episode is saved by the performances by the actors which are the things that stay with you.

    Looking forward to seeing what you think about Hero. :)
     
  4. The Bronze

    The Bronze GraceZ

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    Black Thorn
    I think I had to resort to the murky back corners of the net to watch Angel first time round before I got the DVD's. Channel 4 would hack it to pieces, play it out of order and possibly on different days as well. Then you'd have Channel 5 which was almost unwatchable where I was. Not too mention the advert breaks in both of them. BBC really let us down by not buying the series.
     
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  5. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Why would you play something like that out of order? I can understand if it is a series of a bunch of self-contained episodes with no season long arc but Angel isn't that. Am starting to hate channel 4 even more now;)
     
  6. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Yea that line always gets me too. It's a bit sad. Do you think your niece is going to like the addition of Wesley?
     
  7. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Oh I'm sure she's going to be thrilled to see him returning. She liked Wesley and his dorky Watcher ways on Buffy. I think he'll make her forget about Doyle very quickly.
     
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  8. Samuel Reyes

    Samuel Reyes Chilling in SunnyD

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    I'm sure she'll grow to love Wesley's character even more on Angel - he changes a lot.
     
  9. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Parting Gifts
    This is a strange one to say we had a character death the previous episode. It's not really that sad, or dark, or even depressing. There's a slight air of melancholy and Doyle's absence is definitely felt all over this episode but really its about transition and diving into a brand new case. At Angel Investigations there's barely enough time to grieve over loss.
    Instead we get a twisty, turny plot and lots of good comedy, Cordelia's fantastic audition ('GRASS STAINS!'), Cordelia going around kissing everybody in sight, basically it becomes the 'Cordelia show' for a while (nothing wrong with that), and then Wesley turns up in leather pants and it gets better. There's a real sense of gelling here, Wesley and his Watcher knowledge seems to seamlessly fit right in with Angel's heroic drive and Cordy's visions. At then end when he sits down with them to have breakfast the whole thing looks so right.
    (Yeah, clearly I'm a Wesley fan, and I think from his first appearance here he makes a good start- not perfect, but good.)

    My niece liked it just fine, until Wesley showed up and then she got really interested, especially since he had so much build up. Like me, Cordelia was most of the focus for my niece's positive thoughts- she liked Cordelia telling Angel that she wasn't going to let him push her away because she wasn't going anywhere (more evidence I think that, even without the visions, she would've most likely stayed on to help him)...and then she runs off to her audition. And Cordelia getting stuck with the visions? A great idea according to my niece. 'Makes her indispensable' and will give her some more character growth. Well, she's not wrong.

    Other bits she liked:

    Felt sorry for Angel: As he pleads with the Oracles. Especially when he says that Doyle was his friend (how many friends does Angel have at this stage) and the Oracles rejecting him because Doyle died so Angel wouldn't have to.
    Liked: Cordelia lecturing Angel that he can't push er away, then accusing him of reverse psychology, all to Angel's bewilderment. 'What am I doing?'
    Loved: Angel's pissy reaction to all those vampire cliches- coffins and such.
    Liked: Cordelia crying during her stain-be-gone audition.
    Disliked: Barney initially, then thought he was okay, and then was surprised when it turned out he was evil- but glad since he was annoying even when he was being really friendly.
    Loved: Wesley. With a big dog motor cycle. In leather pants. Easy Tiger. :D
    Liked: Cordelia kissing Angel, their reactions, then her kissing Barney ('maybe not every frog') and she really liked Cordelia kissing Wesley (by the looks of it Cordelia liked it a lot to).
    Loved: 'What's a rogue demon?'
    Liked: That Angel was reluctant to involve Wesley on the case because he'd already lost somebody close, and then later on when Angel pulls Wesley out of his funk very matter of factly.
    Loved: Wesley referring both Buffy (renegade) and more importantly Faith (she's glad she hasn't been completely forgotten about) as the two slayers he lost that led to his firing.
    Liked: Cordelia's fake vision before kneeing Barney in the nuts. Yes!
    Liked: Cordelia making stuff up to increase her own value- 'buried treasure'- and turning bidders against each other.
    Liked: That Cordelia got to kill Barney after all. That she wasn't just helpless and waiting to be rescued.
    Liked: W&H being mentioned again. She'd forgotten about them.
    Loved: Wesley saying goodbye and then failing to leave. his comment about 'gnawing hunger' and then getting eggs from Angel. Also the fact that Angel is apparently a good cook.

    A solidly enjoyable episode and it leads nicely into the next one.
     
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  10. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Somnambulist
    Wow, this actually took me by surprise. I always remember it being good, this being the first peak we see into Angelus' past on Angel's own show, but this is actually really, really something. All Faith-bias to one side this is the stand-out of the season, a truly great standalone with a charismatic villain in the form of Jeremy Renner's Penn- one of Angelus' protege's. Boy, he sure can pick 'em. (Certainly a lot better than that huge pudding 'Why We Fight', another one about a returning 'child of Angel')
    But of course the episode is a lot more than Penn, its a mini-Manhunter, with lots of great performances from the three leads (as well as Elizabeth Rohm's Det. Lockley), a few really great lines, some nice action set pieces, and Cordelia supplanting Doyle as the one who talks Angel out of his funks- in her own unique style.

    I think my niece saw this plot somewhere else though since it didn't seem to impress her as much. She liked it, but she liked how it all moved along some of the relationships a lot more; specifically Wesley becoming form firmly established in the team, Kate finding out about the truth about Angel (he wears lifts!...and he has a bumpy face sometimes. It's off-putting to a girl) and Cordelia growing into a more confidante role for Angel. She loved that last scene so much. The plot, she thought it was okay- she didn't like Penn that much (it was the little beard that did it) and the rest of it was very typical police story-ish (not the Jackie Chan ones, that might've been awesome)

    Check out what she liked:
    Intrigued by: The opening (dream) sequence of Angel stalking and murdering a woman. Very evocative.
    Loved: Cordelia giving a sales pitch to a chair. The fact that its the same pitch she uses later on on Penn is just brilliant.
    Loved: The opening with Cordelia and Wesley. Poor Wes is at a bit of a loose end- 'well then, things can only escalate'.
    Disliked: Grumpy-in-the-morning Angel. Although Cordelia handled his grouchy-pantsness very well. I did like the exchange 'Who were you talking to?' 'Nobody. And Wesley.'
    Liked: Angel and Kate. She clearly has a big crush and Angel is clearly oblivious. My niece also loved the criminal profile that fitted Angel to a tee- that's pretty much the only bit of the cop stuff that she liked.
    Loved: Cordelia defending Angel to Wesley. 'He is my friend and I don't care what he did back in the powdered wig days' Aww. Beautifully undercut when she later says 'you stake him and I'll cut off his head.' :D
    Liked: Cordelia's 'I get to make the coffee AND chain my boss to the bed. Gotta join a union.' :D
    Liked: Angelus and Penn in the flashback. I'm not sure what nationality Pen is supposed to be, it is English? Welsh? I got nothing except European-ish.
    Liked: Angel going to Kate with a detailed profile and a sketch of Penn. Asking her if she trusts him (its a theme with Angel) and also, at the same time, using her to flush Penn out.
    Surprised by: The fact that Penn seemed to be pretty darn powerful for a vampire, at least on a parr with Angel. Beating him up, exhibiting super-speed, and leaping all over the place.
    Liked: Both the fights, although the first one moreso. Really cinematic, vamps getting chucked around.
    Not keen on: Kate's ultimate reaction to Angel's identity. She got the denial, but found the other stuff- freaking out about Angelus- to be a bit obvious/bitchy. 'Maybe she should ask Angel to explain himself? Then maybe he would, just like he did to Buffy.' Not sure Kate would've bought the whole 'gypsy curse angle though- she's struggling with one big idea already.
    Loved: The whole showdown in the office between Cordelia/Penn- 'You're him aren't you? Apt Pupil boy' and Angel going all 'disappointed mentor' on Penn 'You are so prosaic. She also thought that Wesley made a funny hostage.
    Poor Wesley's throat, its always getting harmed. :(
    Guessed: The the school bus was an obvious ruse by Penn. She was pretty pleased that she was right. :)
    Another surprise: Kate killing Penn, although it's fairly obvious she would be the one since this episode is as much about her trying to accept who Angel is/was as it is for Angel himself.
    Loved: The ending. Cordelia saying that the PtB know the difference between Angel and Angelus. He is not that other guy. Also saying that if he does turn 'Oh, I'll kill you dead.' Surprised Angel: 'Thanks' :)

    Good episode that makes the half-way mark and a god place to break. We're gonna continue in a few weeks time.
     
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  11. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    What makes that kiss with Wes even more funny for me was the idea that she didn't register who it was until after the kiss with "Wesley What are you doing here?":D



    Won't say too much as I have this episode review to come, but I just don't see the appeal of Renner and find it baffling how he keeps landing top film roles, sorry!;)

    And this is another idea floating about which I just don't buy. Its one of the strengths of the Angel-Kate relationship that it is based on respect and friendship more than any romance. I think the romance has been read into it rather than the writers intending it to be there.

    Nice reviews as always.
     
  12. Samuel Reyes

    Samuel Reyes Chilling in SunnyD

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    I didn't like Kate very much. Angel put it best at the end of the S1 finale when he called her out on how she was always blaming him for her problems.
     
  13. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I think its there in Elizabeth Rohm's performance, she seems to find Angel attractive ('Sense And Sensitivity') - but that's not at all why she helps him (she isn't some starry eyed teen). She helps him because he's proven himself trustworthy, brave, a good investigator, basically one of the good guys and she respects his abilities. The attraction doesn't define their relationship.
    For his part I think Angel's utterly oblivious to anything romantic on that front. He thinks Kate's a good, professional cop and a useful ally and that's it. He's a bit surprised by her hostility at first and then as the Season goes on (before 'Prodigal' I think) he does try to work with her. I'm fairly certain that at one point (can't remember when) Lockley says 'let's keep this professional I'm not your girlfriend' and Angel just looks baffled.
     
  14. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Yes she does, just watched that episode:D It might be there from Kate I guess I just find it a bit of a negative representation than that sort of character has to have those kinds of feelings for the male lead. Still I guess it is some sort of progress that Angel doesn't like her in that way.
     
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  15. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Expecting

    Yes after 'A New Man' we had yet more body violation after another character trusts the wrong man and wakes up the morning after with a nasty surprise- although this episode had more a horror than comedy vibe. Evil creepy pregnancies' lend themselves to pretty well to horror and this episode does an...okay job of utilizing them I guess. Basically the idea is a bit ho-hum for me but the writing is solid, Wesley is more firmly established as a useful member- he bravely backs up Angel when they fight the 'horrible-demon-lobster-baby thing'... and he's on top-notch form as research guy.
    Mainly its the the beginning and end that I found interesting- Angel asking about Cordelia's private life with genuine interest/nosiness and also the very sweet concern that both of them have towards Cordelia's original (devestated) pregnant state and later when she returns to work at the end of the episode (tidying up her desk for her return was touching). The three of them are becoming quite the unit, as Cordelia makes clear when she says there are two people she trusts absolutely. Aw. She made Wesley cry.

    Eh, my niece thought this was okay I guess. The pregnancy squikked her out and she just didn't like the way the plot developed- with Cordy becoming all stepford Mom or whatever. There were moments she enjoyed but I guess she generally gives a big thumbs down to evil pregnancies. That's a shame since there are two whole pregnancy ARCS to come in future seasons- have to see how they fare. :)

    What did she like? Let's take a look:
    Liked: The funny opener, with Cordelia getting startled by Angel. She says that he should try humming and Angel says that he doesn't (maybe its too close to singing...or mayber because Buffy has said in the past that she doesn't like hummers?). My niece also liked Wesley turning up with an axe and a word tumble. 'They really need to emply him' is what she said.
    Liked: The scene where Angel and Wes cover for Cordy's vision by talking with her gal pals. She laughed when they came to the conclusion that their gay. As Angel says 'Adds mystery.' Well I think Angel's mysterious enough to be honest.

    Didn't Like: Wesley's judgemental tone about Cordelia's attutide to her work life, but she did like that Angel defended her by saying that she's had a lot to cope with. My niece also liked the way the two of them rallyed round Cordelia when she was really distressed.
    Liked: Phantom Dennis giving Cordy a tissue and tucking her up in bed. Aww, what a nice ghost.
    Liked: Angel and Wesley getting the wrong address to fight the 'termites' and ending up getting covered in rotten-demon-baby-slime. I think that maybe the writer of this episode has had kids at some point. :D
    Meh: Cordy's date. She liked that Cordelia was ON a date and that it was going well but not really the guy himself. I could've told her that dating Vinnie Van Lowe was never gonna end well! (Though I think he was charming enough myself)
    Liked: Phantom Dennis screwing with Cordy's 'after date' plans. Her threats to play Evita around the clock (my niece hates everything Madonna) and the fact that Cordelia got some smoochies. Though she did ask if that was Cordelia's 'first, y'know'. I don't think so personally, which means that she had a relationship or so BX.

    Argh: Cordelia ending up pregnant and unhappily sitting there in bed until Angel comes to check on her. Like I said it was the subject matter I'm guessing.

    Disliked: The trip to the prenatal clinic and the growing horror of it all- the ultra-sound with multiple heartbeats, the deadly acid amniotic fluid, Cordy asking if her babies were okay in a creepy-anxious way. I actually found this very creepifingly effective when I saw it.

    Loved: Angel's reaction to seeing Cordelia drinking blood. He looked kinda queasy.

    Loved: Angel kicking ass of all those smug yuppy evil types at the gun club. 'I really hate it when people shoot me.' and then vamp-face.
    Disliked: More Cordy going all Stepford Mom at Wesley, and then knocking him out with a book. The ignomany of that to happen to a Watcher!
    Loved: Wesley's description of the Hacksaw beast. 'Fire can't kill it, decapitation can't kill it...It's really huge. :D

    Liked: Wesley bravely stalling for time against the huge demon until Angel arrives. Though she was kinda disappointed that they dispatched it so easily.

    Liked: the ending with the two of them fussing over Cordelia.


    She
    Can I just say- OOF! this was...bad. Not really entertaining bad (like one could argue that 'IRYJ' or 'Beer Bad' had an entertaining 'it's so bad' quality) this just seemed flaccid and heavy handed in many ways. A bit boring, lacking any real tension and with a disappointing 'female castration/slavery/disempowerment' theme that is just so badly handled.
    It does have a few good qualities...well one. Well when I say 'good' I mean it introduces interdimentional portals, travelling between worlds via them and demons from other dimensions. So...world building that will eventually become important. Oh, and Bai Ling in a revealing outfit. Eh, maybe its just me but I had trouble understanding her accent sometimes (so much so that it distracred from the drama of what she was trying to say) and her character was totally cliche-ridden. This felt like a Stargate SG-1 script with some of the numbers filed off.

    My niece didn't like it either! It's rare that we're completely synched when it comes to opinions on episodes (inevitable really since being involved with the fandom/multiple watches is bound to alter someones thinking) but here she didn't really understand much of what was going on, and what she did understand didn't sound like Angel, it sounded like bad sci-fi.
    However, there were moments, just moments, of joy to be had in this episode- for the both of us. Yeah, they almost make you forget the rest. At one point my niece had trouble breathing...
    Anyway, since she disliked this more than I did then there isn't going to be much that she liked:

    Liked: Cordy's party and Wesley's completely dorky dancing. You have to admire somebody who can dance with that much enthusiasm without feeling self-conscious.
    LOVED!: Angel dancing. It's a lot to do with the gleefully stupid facial expressions that Angel- dour, brooding Angel- is pulling. You just know there a club-diva in him just itching to break out on the dance floor. His love of power ballards is proof enough of that. Thank God Angel didn't stay for ALL of Buffy's prom huh, just did a couple of the slow numbers?

    Buffy (watching Angel dance to Sister Sledge) I am so over you already. :D

    Liked: Angel and Cordy talking about the party the night before. Describing Angel as a black hole sucking the life out of the room. Then Cordelia informing Angel that people found Wesley cooler. Heh.
    Liked: Angel attempting the smoosh the coffee beans and later spills them all over the floor.
    Disliked: Wesley's many pratfalls. My niece just rolled her eyes mostly I hated them. Although Wes does
    Liked: That Wesley was finally given a job.
    Liked: Angel and Cordy's cell phone conversation and the fact that Angel hates them. There are funnier jokes later on about this (I think) but this was amusing.
    Loved: Angel's critiquing in the art gallery- a nice little call back to Angelus's heyday and the company he might've kept. Fits with the idea that Angelus liked the finer things back in the day- high society, ballet, poets, artistic gatherings and such.
    Disliked: The return of Angel's fantastic grapple-gun. Not.
    Liked: A bit of sexual tension between Angel and Jheira. Plus the fact that Angel had to take a cold shower later and so was topless for no real reason. :rolleyes:
    Liked: The hippy-commune guy who was helping hide Jheira's girls. He was okay.

    Hated: Everything else. The bad guys, the whole hot girls in ice thing, burning people/corpses, Jheira's stupid 'knocking people around with heat martial arts' thing, the mutilation (OW!), Jheira willing to let Wes and Cordy die even when they were helping her for no real reason.

    And that's it! :p

    Other bits that are a bit interesting. the 'walking towards the camera' shot of the three cast members is taken from this very episode.
    Angel uses his grappling hook gadget for the last time here I'm pretty certain.
    Um...oh other dimenions know about vampires and also know that vampires are generally nasty/fearsome. Jheria is certainly surprised that Angel seems nice enough, and she has trust issues.
     
  16. Samuel Reyes

    Samuel Reyes Chilling in SunnyD

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    Well, we know she and Xander didn't have sex, but didn't Cordy make reference to having done it in the back of her parents' car or something? Over on Buffy, Season 2, I believe it was?

    Ah, Wesley, how you will change...

    You gotta love how a supposedly brooding, badass vampire like Angel is actually a secret dork.
     
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  17. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Oh man, two bad episodes. These are the weakest probably of season 1 if not the whole series.
    I think that she's not a virgin from the beginning when we first met her on Buffy. If not, then definitely by early s2. In Bad Eggs when they are talking about sex in class it sounds like she's speaking from experience.
    I like that AtS uses cell phones.
     
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  18. Smile Time

    Smile Time Fuffy Apologist

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    Sineya
    Did you also watch 'I've got you under my skin' or you didn't find the time to watch it ?

    Sadly, we don't see his dorky side on BtVS, meaning that Buffy fans that have never watched Angel are missing out on a lot.
    [​IMG]
    ...especially this :(


    They live in LA (which is big), so unlike in 'small' Sunnydale, cellphones are kind of mandatory in LA.
     
    Fuffy Baith: Yes but they are so useful! I guess it makes things too easy sometimes.
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  19. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    They're certainly at the bottom of the pack. I think there's a couple of Gunn-centric episodes that rank fairly low down, also there's the Vegas one in Season 4 I remember hating. And Season 5 had a couple of stinkers, but other than that yeah- these are the worst ones we're gonna be seeing for a while.

    True. Cordelia references dating college aged guys several times so I think that we can assume she was more mature/experienced in that area than Buffy and co.

    I'll post it later on today. :)
     
    Fuffy Baith: Oh I like the Vegas episode. lol.
  20. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I've Got You Under My Skin
    For me this is the perfect little filler episode. It takes a not very original idea (like 'Expecting' I suppose) and really gives it an interesting twist. You add in great performances from the cast and the guest stars (even from the chold actors surprisingly) and its all pretty satisfying. The only down side is the slightly sad and abrupt ending of it all but apart from that, its a perfect illustration of what Season 1 did well.
    There are lots of little bits of character development I liked. Cordelia and Angel talking about Doyle (and the fact that Angel hasn't really experienced loss of this kind that much), the hints of Wesley's bruising childhood that explains a lot of his personality :)() and a bit more solidifying of the Wes/Angel dynamic- Wesley standing up for himself a bit. Also I'm a sucker for anything that takes The Exorcist as inspiration- I just love the wholke set-up. :)

    This was my niece's favorite out of the three Angel eps- she made that clear enough- but she she still didn't enjoy it as much as me. It was a nice bit of creepy horror for her and she loved the twist, but other than that I guess she was more focussed on the ongoing Buffy stuff ('cause we were doing the 'back and forth' thing).
    She mainly liked Angel interacting with the family in their suburban setting (like the bit where the boy asks him if he's going to cry and Angel goes back and forth about it- she thought that was cute) and the whole part with the actual exorcism at Angel's place. Other more specific stuff below:

    Liked: The cosy domesticity of the opening scene. Wesley and Angel looking at a weapon and Cordelia cooking...badly. But still it was nice until it descends into comedy squabbling. :D
    Liked: Angel and Cordelia talking about Doyle. Cordelia saying 'so flap!' and Angel admitting that he misses Doyle. (Although my niece felt a bit sorry for Wesley- 'he's on your team too')
    Liked: All the tension in the Anderson household. The 'trying too hard to be happy' Mom and the seemingly cold/domineering father, the fearful kids, nothing being what it at first appears to be. The twist that the kid was the one possessed and that the Father was being protective of his family from outsiders.
    Loved: Cordelia's reaction to handling the 'kinda pretty' demon poop.
    Also liked: Cordelia's complains about nursery rhymes and how gross they are- in fact most of the things she saidin this episode got a laugh. :)
    Loved: Angel during the mealtime with the family, and how he got on with the kids. My niece commented that, and I quote, 'Angel would probably make a great Dad'...
    Liked: Angel visiting the church and the Nun realizing immediately what he was. And that she was still willing to help the two of them against the demon.
    Liked: Rick, from Rick's Magic And Stuff- with his turtleneck and smooth sales-patter. Also that the boxes were pieced together by blind monks/mute nuns prespecitivly. Fun.
    Loved: The highpoint for her was Wesley and then Angel trying to cast out and imprison the demon- nicely dramatic.

    Loved: The final confrontation with the Ethros demon in the sea caves. The twist that the demon was trapped inside the boy and couldn't do anything bad until it manifested. In between quick cuts of the sinister-looking Ryan (would've bee a much better Anointed One I'm guessing).
    Disliked: Det. Kate being cold to Angel. Boo.


    Next week its all beggorah as we flashback to Angel's origins and also Angel signs up for an underground demon-fighting arena, without the signing up part.
     
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