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Angel S1 Watch-through With My Niece

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by thetopher, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Angel is a great dad to baby Connor! Well see how she feels about the whole thing though.

    So are you going to do 3 Angel eps next week and then do the 4 Faith eps all together, or you going to do 2 Buffy, 2 Angel. I guess your niece isn't going to expect that Faith will show up on Angel, I just like to watch the 4 Faith eps all together to better get her story.
     
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  2. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I think two of each, then my niece can digest the first two Faith eps before being surprised by the two Angel ones. That's the plan anyway. 2, then 1 each and then another two, etc.
     
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  3. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Ah Ok I see. So 2 Buffy, 2 Angel, then 1 Buffy, 1 Angel, then back to 2. That does give you a sense that time has passed since I think Angel says it's been a week since Faith left Sunnydale before showing up.

    Does your niece not like Kate? Cause then I'm thinking she's not going to like the Kate stuff in The Prodigal. I know I don't. lol.
     
  4. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I think you and my niece are in synch on this one. :)

    The Prodigal
    Or the retelling of Angel's origins with added Daddy Issues and there's some cop stuff! :p
    In all fairness I like a lot of this episode, its not brilliant but learning more about Angel's origins through flashback is a good bit of reformatting by the writers. So much of Angelus' need to be an obnoxious bully seems to stem from his conflict with his (constantly domineering/disapproving) father- it makes a lot of sense and is really fascinating to watch. Nice to see Darla again as she spy's Liam, likes what she sees and so chooses to 'elevate' him (as she no doubt sees it) and guide his first night on earth as a vampire. Also Anglus returning to his family is nicely handled. And the Angelus/Darla coda.
    The rest is...less inspiring to be honest. I don't mind Kate for a lot of this episode and even took a liking to her Dad for his little talk with her- giving her advice. The plot- actual magic drugs- and the bad guys were the real weak point for me. That was all dealt with in the last few minutes. It was a shame for the Kate/Angel relationship to go in this direction but I can't say I was that upset. Kate's behaviour from this point on tends to grate though.

    I will say that ther are some pretty shaky Irish accents on display, and NOT just from DB. But his is the worst.

    Uh, my niece loved the flashbacks and not much else. She loved that we found out more about Angel- his name was Liam, he had a sister that he seemed very fond of and he had a very strained relationship with his Father (but a not-so-strained relationship with the local women folk..there seems to be several upset ladies at his funeral). My niece understood Kate's reluctance to get involved with the demonic underbelly of L.A but didn't like the dismissive way she treated Angel- given how he has demonstrably helped people right in front of her and has also helped her on a couple of occasions.
    The death of Lockley's father shocked her a bit because towards the end there she was starting to warm to the guy (even if he was a bit dirty) but other than that she wasn't really involved in the present day stuff apart from Cordy and Wesley's contribution. She liked that they were all becoming an investigative team (even more so in the next episode)
    The things she enjoyed:
    Loved: The opening flashback to the frilly shirt days. A hung over Liam confronted by his Father, saying that he'll never amount to anything and that seguing into the present day fight with the world's most dangerous bum (or demon as it turned out).
    Liked: That denial of the supernatural extends far beyond Sunnydale. Turns out its a thing about people in general- they block out 'demon attack' and think 'angry drunk' or whatever.
    Meh: Kate's awkward conversation with her Dad. Also Kate's line to Angel 'I'm not your girlfriend' pissed her off. 'As if he would!' :D
    Liked: Cordelia getting a (terrible) security system (how could they affords it? Oh, right, its crappy) and off-handedly telling them Angel that he missed her birthday (I think that makes Cordy maybe slightly older than Buffy maybe? Not sure)
    Liked: Wesley dissecting the demon- not the guts bit actually but just that he was acting like a smart investigator type.
    Liked: The 'evil thing' conversation between Angel and Kate. Mainly the confusion aspect.
    Liked: Cordelia with a hacksaw just as Wesley gets through telling Angel that some women can be delicate around such things.
    Feels: For Liam leaving home, comforting his sister and his last angry words to his Father. His Father's anger/pride at not saying maybe that he didn't want Liam to go. Aw.
    Loved: Cordelia's PI detail outfit. Blonde wig and giant sunglasses. :)
    Loved: The reimagining of Becoming. Darla being there when Angelus first rises up. Angelus' 'I think I'll take the village' line. The first indication that he tends to think big.
    Liked: Kate being (briefly) nice to Angel'
    Disliked: Lockley Sr. being killed. Partly because she could tell that he wasn't actually getting bit (you can tell with the slo-mo) and partly because Angel almost saves him.
    Liked: Angelus slaughtering his family, his speech to his father right before he kills him.
    Loved: Angel getting tooled up for battle. Nice call-back to 'City Of...' He's pissed.
    Liked: Angel duel staking a couple of vamps and then beheading the (lame) demon.
    Liked: Darla's comment about who a vampire was in life informs a lot of what they become as a vampire. That's somewhat illustrated by what we've seen and go on to witness but not always.

    All in all a neatly handled Year One style retelling. :)
     
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  5. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    The Ring
    Wow. I thought I remembered liking this one way back when (maybe it was all the cool fighting) but it was really uninvolved for me. The illegal demon deathmatch thing is another unoriginal plot handled well and yet I found it hard to care. It all amounts to 'we set a bunch of dangerous demons loose' (although to be fair some of those demons seem to have concepts such as honour and mercy- like Trepkos) and Angel getting to make a principaled stand (against Lilah Morgan. Yay!) and get some nice one-liners. Other than that the main plot was meh.
    What I did love was the Wesley Cordelia show- starting out bickering over demon dating bases and then working well as a team when it mattered. Wesley got to play it a bit of a cool badass (pulling a crossbow on the loan shark) and Cordelia provided a(mildly) convincing cop impersination and some horse hair. Yeah, I liked the Andrews and Yelsew show!

    My niece liked it a lot more than me- certainly more than Prodigal- as it had some cool fights, another W&H employee (who she liked and thought was pretty) and hissable villains getting their deserved commuppance. She's also interested in the grey shading that continues to enter the show- Angel risking his life to help (seemingly brutal) demons for the simple reason that doing bad things to bad creatures doesn't make it right. Also she likes it when Angel is all stoic and hero-like. :)
    She also liked that Wesley's growing self-confidence was starting to edge out his prat-fall nature, given his boost in self-confidence, and that Cordelia is able to help beyond just 'vision girl' (her wording).

    Those things she liked get mentioned:

    Liked: Cordelia and Wesley's discussion of a demon website that turns into a squabble. Heh. She thought Cordy got the best of it and I have to agree.
    Liked: Angel interrupting the poker game ('very noir') and then following the guy out into the alley to get info. Almost like Angel is a half decent PI.
    Loved: Cordelia's commentary as she types the demons description into the computer. 'Add a porshe and hair plugs and I've dated this guy. A lot.' :)
    Liked: Angel fighgting the (slightly unnerving) Howler demons. Maybe he should've brough a weapon besides a flashlight?
    Liked: It's a trap! And the fact that she guessed it as soon as Angel entered the high class club. She was all 'fighting those sewer demons was some kind of test to see what kind of fighter he is.'
    Liked: Generally the set of XXI and the whole 21 kills thing. She thought that was cool.
    Loved: Cordelia and Wesley pretending to be cops. 'Somethings going down tonight. Something with the MAN!'
    Disliked: The fact that Officer Kate didn't seem like she wanted to help. :(
    Loved: Action Wesley! Using his good aim to some effect. He showed a bit of steel here, shades of Dark Wesley to come.
    Disliked: Crib (the green guy with the tongue)- he was a bully and rude.
    Liked: The conversation between Lilah and Angel. I think my niece will be pleased at how much screen time Lilah gets in the seasons to come.
    Liked: Wesley and Cordelia working out how to unlock the magic bracelets. Plus Cordelia has a pony! My niece (who likes horses and is a pretty good rider) likes Cordy even more now.
    Loved: The last fight between Angel and Trepkos. Especially Angel showing mercy and then Trepkos doing the same at the end.
    Liked: McNamara getting destroyed by his own damn braclets. :D

    Two solid eps for my niece- but now the Season gets REALLY good. Angelus (sorta), Faith (!!), Gunn (whoop!), more Lindsey. As I remember not a bad ep to come. :)
     
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  6. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Eternity
    I think this is easily the best 'Angel w/client of the week' episode of S1. It was nice to see Angel and co. getting out interacting with LA celebs again- with a clever callback to 'City Of..'- for what seems like a simple stalker case. Of course its all a bit more complicated and so we get a nice tale about the pitfalls of eternal youth and the shallow side of Hollywood. This is emphasised by Cordelia's return to form turning all fame-hungry and narcissistic (but this is the reason she came to LA in the first place, so its entirely in-character) and also the scenes with Rebecca's agent.

    The actress (Tamara Gorski) was excellent as Rebecca Lowell. She's a big reason why this episode works so well. The chemistry between her and DB is subtly handled- no overt smoldering- and I enjoyed all their scenes together. But the highlight has to be those last ten minutes or so- really showed how much of a threat Angelus can be (I actually think he's more effective here than he is post-cage in S4). It also showed Wesley's increased bravery/grit and Cordelia's tremendous acting ability in her face-off with Angel- her fantastic bluff was wonderully played.


    My niece thought this episode was okay-ish... right up until the crackling finale in Angel's basement o' gloom when Angelus reemerges. She thought that was really well done and loved how Angelus (or Angel thinking he's Angelus) menaced Rebecca Lowell and got downright nasty and cruel with his friends. Up until that point she mostly enjoyed Cordelia's hi-jnks, from faking her vision to arriving at Rebecca's with three latte's and a cross for Angel.
    She did like the idea of Angel helping out somebody rich and famous but she only really perked up when Rebecca found out that Angel was a vampire. She also liked Rebecca's reaction- the not freaking in horror at the whole thing.


    Liked: The comedy opening as Wesley and Angel attempt to escape Cordy's despearte performance. My niece wondered what theatre thought that she would be best for the part. Well Cordy's very attractive and managed to remember most of her lines...nah, I got nothing. ;)
    Liked: Wesley and Angel attempting to say something nice about Cordelia's performance without lying.
    Liked: Cordelia's elbow being in the paper, also Angel's 'I don't care but I actually do' to the fact that he wasn't mentioned in the paper.
    Loved: Cordelia's incompotent eavesdropping 'Are you insane?'
    Loved: Cordelia's utterly unconvincing fake-vision. 'It's Rebecca! She's in danger! Terrible danger...'

    Liked: Rebecca questioning Angel about his part with genuine curiousity/awe and not freaking out. This is pretty much how my niece would react to that knowledge.
    Liked: Cordelia gushing to RL during thier shopping trip.

    Holy crap! Angel pouring blood down Rebecca's throat and then going all vamp face 'perfectly happy'.
    A little unsure: About how the perfect happiness/curse thing worked. Although i think Wesley put it best when he said that it was an illusion, chemical suggestion. Angel under the influence and channeling his inner demon.
    Liked: Rebecca's bravery and her hitting Angelus in the face with a lamp. Nice.
    Loved: Angelus' confrontation with Wesley ('did you finally grow a pair?') and especially Cordelia faking him out with the holy water ('and the Oscar goes to...'). And then Wesley pushing Angel down the elevator shaft (although the thought that knocking him out that way was a bit too easy)
    Liked: Cordelia's tight red hotpants...Okay that was me but they were great and I thought that they should be mentioned. :D
    Loved: The end conversation with Angel chained to the bed as Wesley and Cordelia look on coldly. The awkwardness as Angel tries to apologise and how a hurt Wesley and Cordelia say that they should just put it behind them.
    Loved: Cordelia's perfectly times 'Pfft!' and walking away after Angel asks to be untied.

    Next week: eh, something about a slayer arriving in LA...
     
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  7. Smile Time

    Smile Time The Scattered One

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    Sineya
    And did your niece like seeing said slayer in L.A ? ;)

    Just wait until season 4, Angelus there is at his best :D
     
  8. vellavu

    vellavu Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I think he's not much better than Buffy S4 Spike.

    The writers were not ready to kill main characters or posing irreversible pain on them at that moment, so although he was portrayed very well, the threat level was unavoidably low because he was not allowed to unleash his potential. Gosh, at least let Gunn and Wesley break each other's arms or Fred shoot Connor with some arrows or something.

    Target Age - Angelus: all older adults. Spike: 5 young adults + 1 older adult. Angelus: 1, Spike: 0.
    Target Psychology - Angelus: bunch of people who were already hating/betraying/jealousy of each other. Spike: brew the hidden insecurity out. Angelus: 0, Spike: 1.
    Efficiency of Methods - Angelus: endless blatant monologues and insults. Spike: several short natural conversations. Angelus: 0, Spike: 1.
    Actual Damage - Angelus: killed several nameless guys + hurt Faith. Spike: None. Angelus: 1, Spike: 0.

    2: 2. Yeah.
     
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  9. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Oh, I think he is. Bearing in mind that Angelus is playing against a bunch of adult vampire hunters who KNOW that he's a real threat, who expect that he's going to try and mess with their heads- and he succeeds utterly.
    Wheras the Scoobies have unwittingly come to see Spike as a neutered non-threat, even trustworthy to a certain degree. Somebody who 'sees things as they are' (like in 'Something Blue' or 'Pangs') That's why Spike is so successful, he was unexpected.

    Five By Five
    This was actually tough for me (from my own viewing perspective) because I went into this episode trying to be objective about the whole thing. And on the whole I think I succeeded. Because this is a truly fantastic, beautifully crafted bit of television with some really gifted performances! :)
    But in the final analysis its not all because Faith happens to be there. In this episode (and the next one) so many things about this series get crystalized for the first time, and I think this is where Angel really feels that it could have legs of its own and not 'just' be a 'vamp dectective w/client of the week' show.

    Firstly there's Angel himself, not only does this episode take a look at his time immediately post-soul (which will start the trend of filling all those gaps within that hundred years or so) and seeing how his first bruising encounter with Darla shaped his lonely, brooding, 'pariah' outlook- 'you're disgusting! You're not like anything!'- but also his mission statement, saving souls, searching for redemption and helping others to do the same.
    Angel's stance in this episode goes from (genuine) anger at Faith to the realization that she, like him, sees herself as a worthless monster who wants to die. But also that gives Angel the chance, in contrast to the unwilling Darla, to save Faith from herself, to show that she can still change, that she isn't irrideemable. An important realization to him going forward and that will echo deep on into the next season.

    Secondly Wesley. Oh boy does Wesley get to show some steel here. He gets called to account for his worst mistake in his past role as Watcher (I loved the bitchy 'some British guy' speech from Angel and then Cordelia jumping to Wesley's defence...and then 'oh, wait a minute, that was you. Go on!') but his impassioned plea to Angel that Faith is a 'sick, sick girl' and not a monster is a great moment.
    Later on he bravely endures Faith's torture as a way of facing up to his part in what he did to her. Watching a broken, deeply unstable and darn right unhealthy-looking Faith sadistically hurting Wesley is darkly compelling to watch.

    Thirdly W&H finally taske center stage as 'the threat', with Lindsey, Lilah and Lee being seen working together, plotting and scheming and interacting for the first time. It's great entertainment and the actors bounce off each other well- bitter lawyer snarking is fun!. We get Angel facing off with Lindsey in an electrifying and amusing scene as Angel infiltrates W&H as a corporate suit. We get Lilah getting picked up by Faith (*ahem* how exactly did that play out?) and Lee getting brutally assaulted. All great stuff.

    Flashbacks. Angel flashbacks always mean a good episode. I can even ignore the ropey accent here because mostly Angel is too traumatized to speak conherently. And it all fits into the latter scenes with Darla in S2, where Angel, with soul, went on to kill people. Making his actions here all the more understandable.

    And finally there is Faith herself, whose character fits so well into the darker, murkier world of Angel I'd wish they'd done more with her. ED gives a lot of her best here as Faith hurtling towards self-destruction. Brutally beating people, starting a mini-riot in a dance club for no reason at all, casually threats and out and out attacks (like with Lee) for utterly trivia things (Lee got her face a bit). And then her reaction to Angel's name. Here she could have a clean rap sheet, money and 'prospects' as a W&H employee and all she has to do is kill somebody she's...almost suceeded in killing in the past. But she has other ideas.
    All through the episode we think we're going to get and knock-down drag-out fight to the death and in a beautiful, heart-breaking twist we do, but not as we expect. Faith's tide of raging violence breaks against Angel's stubborn refusal to kill her. The last scene in the rain-swept alley is one of the finest either show has produced because it is unexpected and yet makes perfect sense in hindsight. Faith's tears at the horror of what she's become- her self-disgust being hinted at since as far back as 'Enemies' - and Wesley dropping the knife in slow motion.
    Near perfect episode.

    The only downside of this episode I think is a distinct lack of Cordelia- but that's just because there's too much else here. And I suppose Cordy's better established than Wesley at this point in the season, so I get why she's side-lined for much of this episode (and she's barely in the next one).

    It might actually be possible that my niece loved it more than I did (first viewings have that more intense reaction to things). First there was her reaction to actually seeing Faith on another show (there was squeeing :)) and seeing her and Angel interact in a completely new way. Angel wasn't just 'the boyfriend' anymore- something to be used just to get to Buffy- he was the focus, the protagonist. My niece loved the scenes between them the most.
    She was really invested in seeing how Faith's journey would end and the whole 'spiral out of control' had her riveted. She genuinely thought that Angel was going to do something bad at one point, although there was another point where she thought that it might end the another way- she's pretty smart.
    She enjoyed a lot of the bad guy schemeing that got focused on- recognising that guy from 'Sense And Sensitivity' and the woman from 'The Ring' and such. She liked the little references to the past (of both shows), especially the Faith/Wesley callback and their scene together.

    More specifics:
    Liked: The 'creepy, melty-faced' demons, Angel's drive-by rescue/beheading. And Wesley getting slimed and then that long-suffering look as he wipes hiself off. :)
    Loved: Faith, generally. Or more precisely, enjoyed her magnetic performance/presence rather than cheering her actions. 'Cause, y'know, evil and damaged.
    My niece did comment that Faith looked 'terrible' as in 'worse than just post-coma' (all that lack of sleep I'm guessing) and was shocked by her level of brutality towards, uh, well everybody. But mostly Cordelia and Wesley.
    Liked: The flashbacks. Not so much Angelus (although personally I find Angelus/Darla quite a enjoyable team) more Angel's shock and torment at his new soul. My niece was all 'boo!' to Darla for how she reacted (at least intitially. We get more of the story later on in S2 'Darla').
    My niece also like Angel trying, and failing, to be a 'monster' again to that group of Romanians. And then him running off into the night ('to eat rats!' my niece declared).
    Liked: Cordelia and Wesely debating about their current case (snorted at Wesley using the term 'ruffian') and the whole having of a soul thing. My niece finds it interesting. 'What does it mean to have a soul? Is it knowing what's right, or simply having the choice to decide what is right?' She thought out loud about demons- do they have souls? etc.
    Liked: Faith in the club causing needless mayhem. (Check out Faith's clubbing outfit! Whoot!)
    Liked: All the W&H stuff. She likes that faces that have appeared all season are now intereacting to take down Angel. 'Sort of like a team-up of vilains, but not' is how she put it. :) Her favorite out of all of them so far is Lindsey because she thought he was cute and he got to face off against Angel.
    Liked: Faith getting recuited by Lilah and Lee and then later on in the office when they give her the job. Some nice workplay with the lawyer speak plus Faith's now blase' attitude to becoming a gun for hire. My niece was all 'uh-oh' at her eagerness to take on Angel.
    Loved: Cordelia taking a sleazy diverce case for the money and then being vague about it to Wesley and Angel. Then her reaction to Angel saying he doesn't have any money on him 'Okay, Elvis, when you're famous you can get away with not having any money...'
    Loved: The overhead shot of Faith pointing a crossbow at Angel, shooting him point blank and him just managing to catch the bolt. Plus Faith's reaction 'That was so cool!'
    Liked: The gang's reaction to Faith- shock and indignant outrage from Wesley, healthy fear from Cordelia (I like the part where I'm scarce). Determined anger from Angel.
    Loved: the fact that Angel got protective about Buffy ('Giles just said it was rough'), being a bit bossy to Wesley and angry at Faith. Nice!
    Liked: Angel undercover (always a favorite) frying to suit-speak his way past some guy in the lobby.
    Loved: Angel's face-off with Lindsey. the back and forth sniping seems to bring out some great lines from Angel.

    Got it: Phantom dennis not letting Cordelia in. 'Faith's in there!' So my niece wasn't so shocked at her appearance, but she was shocked by Faith knocking Cordy out just to make a point. My niece loved how Wesley stood up to her ('way to go Wes!')
    Felt sorry for: Cordelia being all upset that Wesely got hurt because he was with her.
    Urgh: Faith torturing Wesley. The best parts she liked were when Wes gives his great speech ('I was your Watcher Faith, I know the real you.' which got me wondering) and calls Faith a pice of sh-. And then later when Faith is wondering about fate, choice, destiny. Whether Giles would be in that chair or it would've been Wesley no matter what.
    It's then that my niece thought, for a brief moment, that things might turn out differently. That Faith might realise that she does have a choice, etc. That all went away with-
    Loved: The fight! The big Angel/Faith brawl where we get to see a slayer really cutting loose (Poor Angel) I think a lot of it is just the superb fight chereography that has the pair of them trashing the whole apartment before falling out into the alley below. It's really intense, bruising and fierce. Angel takes a hellacious beating (partly because he doesn't really fight back).
    Loved: Faith's sobbing in the rain as she breaks down and begs Angel to kill her. Powerful stuff. This sort of self-loathing, hearbreakingly intense scene has been done a whole bunch on either show, but never better than here.
    Somebody give that girl a hug. :(

    Next up: Everybody, and I mean everybody, is pissed at Faith. But at least there's popcorn. :)

    Fanon theory: I always thought that the Watcher's got given basic info (like a file or dossier) on their slayer that they're going to oversee/order about. I imagine that Giles knew some of Buffy's social situation- divorcee mother, kicked out of school, recently moved, etc.
    Do you think Wesley got the same thing for Faith? (Giles would've since he was a stop-gap until she could be assigned a proper one) And do you think that had any bearing towards her either here or much later on in S4. It's just when he goes 'I know the real you' he seems like he knows something and Faith seems to react.
    Or is it just a general ret-conning of their tenuous relationship between 'Bad Girls' and 'Enemies'?
     
    Fuffy Baith: Such a great episode!
  10. Smile Time

    Smile Time The Scattered One

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    Sineya
    What did she think of Buffy in the episode ? Sanctuary is one of the few episodes where I can't stand Buffy...

    I also noticed something in some of your more recent posts on these threads:Less things are going over your niece's head.

    *Waits for you to post her thoughts on Sanctuary*

    She does need one, everyone gets forgiven but her...

    What's a dossier ???

    Faith gets some pretty good songs to dance to during the show, like Chinese Burn and Living Dead Girl :D
     
  11. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    That's great that your niece really loved this episode. I do like the Angel flashbacks and how it parallels Faith. ED is soo great in these two parters! Definitely my favorite eps of the season and the Buffyverse in general.

    Angel does! I like that it's Angel that gives her a hug and she cries in his arm. Angel and Faith just have a great relationship (non romantic)

    Yea I was also curious as to what Wesley meant. It seems like in s3 he didn't know anything about who Faith is.

    Was she surprised when Buffy shows up in Sanctuary?
     
  12. Samuel Reyes

    Samuel Reyes Chilling in SunnyD

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    I really liked Wesley's development in this episode as well. The cowardly dork who was willing to divulge crucial information in exchange for not being tortured back in Sunnydale is now the guy who braves a night of actual pain without once begging for his life. Wes's badass response to Faith saying she wants to hear him scream: "You never will."

    Also, do you think Wesley would have killed Faith had she gotten the upper hand in her fight with Angel? Wes is, after all, the guy who makes all the hard decisions, regardless of how those decisions affect him. Faith might've killed Wes just moments before and now he's willing to kill Faith for the greater good.
     
  13. vellavu

    vellavu Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    She's OK in Sanctuary. Her "my brain would fall out" speech in The Yoko Factor is not OK.
    A folder of files?
    ED can sing (Dollhouse S1E3) but didn't do it on Angel.:(
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  14. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I think she's just getting used to the, fairly clever and nuanced, style of writing. She picks up a lot more of the innuendo now than she- like Lindsey saying that he could get Faith off and Faith smiling and saying about men are always promising that.

    True. Because nobody gives a damn about her so nobody takes the effort to forgive her. I think Wesley did in the end. And obviously Angel since she tried to kill him a couple of times...
    It's weird since the bad things Faith did were out of loyalty to the Mayor.

    Fancy name for a file of information. MI had them all the time. :)

    Agreed, her acting is top-notch. Crazy, psychotic and broken to guilt-ridden and scared, she goes through so much in these two episodes. I think this time round I appreciated them more because I was analysing why they were so good.

    One of the best relationships in the Buffyverse (non-romantic).

    Nope, because its right there in the credits. a big honking 'SMG As Buffy' that kinda gives it away. This show does that a lot, giving away a surprise guest. They do it again in 'Crush' by advertising 'Juliet Landau as Drusilla!' when its supposed to be a mystery.

    Yes. Quite a change from the guy who cringed 'but I'd like to have my kneecaps!' over on Buffy, which was really only about a year ago. I think working with Angel and Angel trusting in his abilities (without belittling him) increased his confidence, competence and bravery.

    Yes, without a doubt.

    Not really. I get why Buffy is angry with Faith (of course- entirely justified and a great scene) but the way she treats Angel was stone cold bitchiness. She's incapable of seeing his POV and that speech at the end is calculated to hurt him as much as possible, there's no other reason for her to say those things- 'I love Riley and he's better than you!' I cheered when Angel shouted back at her.
    Though I am pleased that he went after her back to Sunnydale. :)

    Sanctuary
    Coming right after the darkly intense FBF we get what amounts to a nicely realized examination of the immediate aftermath of all the badness. This episode delves into Faith's wounds (both self-inflicted and the ones she inflicted on others- Wesley and Buffy specifically) to explore what redemption and forgiveness actually mean, and what they cost us.
    Then it turns into a mini-action movie with machine-guns, rooftop fights and helicopter chasing. So that's cool!

    But yeah there's lots of great interactions here, especially between Wesley and Angel and later with Buffy and Faith, these explore some personal and painful areas and handles them well. DB does a lot of good work here as he transforms from Buffy's ex to the guy who's trying to protect Faith from everyone for the simple reason that his empathy allows him to what she is going through. He believes that she can change (although gratefully he never says anything that trite and cheesy).
    ED also gives a terrific performance, revealing a side of Faith we haven't seen in a long time- in real pain, contrite and fairly helpless as of what to do next. Angel shows her one way, through her anger Buffy demands another. And although Faith ultimately decides to do what Buffy wants its on her own terms. She makes the choice on her own and therefore has a chance to find peace. But it'll be a long road (going on 6+ years at the moment...)

    I especially liked the way that both Buffy and Wesley go about seeking revenge for their past grievences. Wesley sees past them, despite being offered everytihng he could possibly want (to go home, his old position restored, to come back with the rogue slayer would undoubtably grant him some respect from his collegues), and decides to trust in Angel.
    Buffy does not. As she makes abundantly clear she doesn't trust Angel, or Angel's judgement, and believes that Faith is simply playing him. And even when she sees that the emotions the other slayer feels are genuine (as she tells Faith on the rooftop) she doesn't care because she doesn't beleive that Faith can truly change. Even her last words to Angel are 'See, Faith wins again.' At this point she is incapable of seeing another viewpoint other than her own, selfish, one.
    Not that I don't sympathize with Buffy's viewpoint. We love characters for what they do wrong as much for what they do right, as long as we can understand why they do what they do.
    I think the Buffy/Faith rooftop scene is one of my favorites between the two of them because its one of the most honest ones they have. There are so many times where they close off around each other or don't say what they actually mean, but here there's just pain and truth (and foreshadowing for Buffy!).

    Eh, my niece found a lot of this problematic and some of it darn right painful to sit through. Buffy being cold and mean to Angel! Angel hitting Buffy! The ending! Although everything that wasn't Bangel related rated pretty good with her but the arguing - she just wanted Angel to explain "She wanted me to kill her! She isn't playing me because she wanted to die!" My niece was all 'Use your words!' (although I think 'IRWY' is fresh in Angel's mind when he hears about Riley- colours his reactions. And Buffy finds Faith in Angel's arms, how aren't they going to fight?)
    And also the return of Det. Lockley wasn't welcomed- not a fan. Add to that very little Cordelia (one scene!) and Lockley threatening to kill Angel for the fun of it (although she liked Buffy in the police station defending him) and this was distinctly 'okay episode' territory.
    However its definitly an episode that she'll want to see again in a little while. She generally loved all the Angel/Faith scenes. the Buffy/Faith stuff, more W&H scheming (she really likes them!) and Wesley interacting with the Watchers group (which we sadly didn't get to see Giles do).

    Specific thumbs up/down:
    Nice: Angel giving Faith a towel to dry off and his bed to lie in.
    Yikes: Faith's murder-flash of beating/killing Angel! Scary in her brain still.
    Liked: The whole Wesley/Cordy exchange. 'If its any consolation you do look like you've been tortured by a much larger woman.' :)
    Liked: Another reference to jelly donuts being the best ever kind of donut.
    Loved: Wesley standing up to Angel. 'Developed a sweet fang have we?' and also him coldly stating that Angel has no right to take the moral high ground. His anger here was terrific (and understandable).
    Liked: Cordelia taking a paid vacation because she has no f***s to give about Faith. Ha!

    Meh: Detective Lockley barging into whatever police case she feels like. M niece and I are pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Cases get assigned, and its not like Lockley's polite about it. 'Hey my fellow collegue, could I lend you my expertise?' More flies with honey and so forth.
    Eek! Faith holding a knife with that 'look' on her face. But she handed it back when Angel offered her donuts. :)
    Loved: W&H and the disbelief that their paid assassin is now rooming with the mark. My niece especially liked the 'apparently he used to date one' about Angel and slayers. My niece wasn't that pleased to see Lee alive, but at least he looked badly hurt.
    Perfect: Faith's flashback to 'Bad Girls' and her freaking as a result (of course Faith's first reaction would be to run away again- completely in character) and Angel saying that if she runs then she'll basically always be running. His whole scene here is a nice callback to his speech to her in 'Consequences'. Then Faith's reaction- first punching Angel and then asking for help. Messed. Up. (But I still want to hug her)
    Liked: The reappearance of the Watcher's squad from Buffy. First bit of crossover magic!
    Then they offer Wesley a deal. Side with them against the slayer and he'll be reinstated as Watcher (I must ask to who exactly? Not Buffy that's for sure, some potential maybe. Or whoever is called after they 'rehabilitate' Faith's brain so it gets splattered over the nearest wall?).

    Loved: The 'How does this work?' speech in which Angel outlines how hard its going to be from now on for Faith and her path to redemption, when Faith just wants some comfort food from the microwave. Heh.

    Loved: Faith remembering the one person she really did put the hurt to. 'B'. And her anguish about how she's ever going to put it right. She didn't like Angel's 'this isn't about Buffy' 'Yes, it is. It totally is.' said my niece. :)
    Awkward: Buffy's timing. Angel's reaction to Buffy arriving. Buffy being stunned by Faith in mid-hug with Angel. Faith's reaction to Buffy.
    Liked: 'If you apologize to me I will beat you to death'. 'Go ahead'. :(
    Liked: Buffy and Angel's initial exchanges until it got really heated.
    Disliked: Faith not apologizing to Wesley when he's 'right there'. Although in her defence Faith is a bit preoccupied because Buffy and Angel are fighting over her.
    Hated: Most of that second Buffy and Angel exhange in the basement. Buffy's dibelief that Angel hit her. Buffy calling Angel a murderer (ouch). She did like Angel's 'it was a cry for help' and Buffy's snarking response.
    Puzzled: Why everybody was worried about the Watcher guys when there's two slayers and a vampire on hand. Buffy took them all out single-handedly before. Maybe one of them can sense automatic weapons? A handy skill.

    Loved: The whole rooftop scene (I'm with her there) and her reaction to Buffy saving Faith from machine gun fire was 'See, she still cares!' Bless. :D
    Loved; Wesley nailing Weatherby with the syringe before punching him out.
    Liked: Buffy beating up a guy twice her size.
    Loved: Angel power-leaping through the skylight onto the helicopter (I forget Angel can do this because its more of an Angelus thing).
    Hated: Lockley arresting Angel and threatening to put him in a room with a sunny view. Her being dismissive of Buffy ('she could tear your head off!')
    Loved: Faith's 'I'd like to make a confession' as Angel and Buffy look on.

    Loathed: Buffy saying that she doesn't trust Angel and that she has a new guy now. Angel's bitter response and he tells Buffy to go home. Buffy walking off.
    (This is one of my favorite Bangel scenes ever. Grown up couples (even exes) fight and stand-up to each other- its what they do.)
    Liked: Wesley admitting to Angel that he did the right thing. Nice- especially considering that in the future it will be Wesley who comes to ask Faith for help. Probably a big part of the reason why she decided to bust out in the first place.
    Liked: The last shot of Faith in prison, on the road to redeeming herself. It'll be a while before we see her again (beyond a nice little cameo). :(

    Niggles: No British person has used the word 'ponce' since 1978 I'll bet. Also British people use the term 'economy' not 'coach' when talking about plane travel.
    Apparently W&H paid Faith half upfront (which is like 7 and half grand). So where's that money? Is it cash in her bag or something? It can't be a cheque cause that can be cancelled. Puzzle.
    Does Buffy describe Riley to Angel? Because he recognizes the guy when he sets foot in Sunnydale. Maybe she said 'he's tall, wears military gear. Kind of...cardboardy.' and that way Angel knew straight away when he saw him. :p

    Anyway, a great couple of episode. Next up a focus on two characters who will be pretty important on Angel. Lindsey and Gunn.
     
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  15. GwenRaiden

    GwenRaiden AKA Apology Girl

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    Black Thorn
    It's so annoying isn't it. At least she'll actually be surprised by ASH's return in s6 to smack that witch up. (Is that the only time they don't ruin the mystery of a guest star returning..?)
     
    VisionBoy: Worst for me was 5x01. Had no idea they were resurrecting Spike, but boom- there he is, second name in the opening titles. So much for that surprise at the end :/
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  16. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Angel does it a lot better than Buffy I think. Faith showing up in 'Five By Five'is a genuine surprise. Darla's return at the end of the season. Drusilla's awesome return in S2 in a holy shit moment. More Faith in S4 Salvage. Willow appearing in 'Orpheus'. Lindsey coming back in S5. All of them brilliant reveals to one degree or another.

    The only ones I can think of from Buffy (besides Giles in S6 as you pointed out) are Oz in 'New Moon Rising', 'Riley in 'As You Were' (I think).
    Oh, and Faith and Angel in S7. Both their appearances are surprising and well-handled.
     
    Fuffy Baith: Isn't AH credited as Willow in the credits before she shows up? Maybe not.
  17. GwenRaiden

    GwenRaiden AKA Apology Girl

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    Black Thorn
    Nah, his name appeared in the opening credits. :( I was like "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-oo".
     
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  18. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    I like seeing them interact and Kate going "Who are you?". Plus Buffy pushing off the cops.

    Love that Angel just goes right into a speech and Faith is talking about popcorn. lol.

    If there's anything that gets Buffy's blood boiling it's Faith and Angel together. She's gets so jealous even though shes got this "great trusting bf" in her life now.

    Haha. On Buffy they do! Doesn't Spike say ponce a few times too?

    Good question. It could be back at that guys house. Maybe Angel gave it to Wesley? Maybe that's how Faith can afford those clothes when she gets out of prison.

    Well he does see her talking to Riley in Pangs, I'm sure Faith filled in some details.

    I agree! I like seeing this grown up side. Clearly they still have feelings but they know its not all roses anymore. I like Angel yelling at Buffy saying it's his town and she doesn't know him anymore.

    Well Americans still use coach. Economy is like the polite way of saying your in coach cause you couldn't afford first class.

    Well Faith shows up before the credits in Dirty Girls, and Eliza is just credited in name not "as Faith" anymore.

    Great post! This is one of the best two parter episodes of both series. I love seeing Faith's character arc. Sadly we don't get more until S4. I hope your niece warms up to Darla though, she's great in s2!
     
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  19. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I loved that little bit. Angel and Buffy see somebody off-screen, Kate turns away to deal, that cop has his arm across Buffy and she just easily pushes it down in annoyance.
    Considering that Buffy has superpowers she really is very restrained throughout the show. I forget that sometimes.

    My niece laughed so hard at that. I loved it too and its followed up by Faith's little guilt-fest because she's hurting so bad. And Angel's all 'deal with it.'
    I like that he didn't coddle her about those emotions because they're important. Its all 'this is the payback for what you did to other people'. It's key to how Angel thinks about himself- 'you 've done bad so you should feel bad'. He's at his best when he remembers this.

    The Fuffy in me says its because Buffy is jealous of both Angel and Faith- at least a little bit. We know that she's pretty much over a lot of her Angel issues so I think here she gets overloaded by the imagery.

    He does but he also says things like 'shirty', 'poofter' and such. I don't blame him, he probably hasn't been back to England since he got his new 'do!

    I keep thinking that Faith's bad o' stuff (plus the money) probably never survived Angel's offices getting blown up at the end of the season. I mourn for that gorgeous clubbing outfit. :(:D
    Still, maybe Angel told Wesley to put her stuff away at his place? That would explain how Faith has all those clothes when driving back from the prison in Wes's car- he kept 'em. :)

    Well remembered! I forgot that he'd seen him back in 'Pangs'. So Willow probably said 'that's Riley Finn the Psych TA' and Faith filled in the rest.

    Great. I like that he goes to apologize in 'The Yoko Factor' and that Buffy does admit that Angel wasn't entirely wrong about her coming in and making judgements.
    Those bits of Bangel I like more than the lovey-dovey S3 stuff. I like how they change and grow and come back to each other.

    Point. I'll have to see if my niece spots that or if she gets genuinely surprised.

    My niece is so pleased with Faith's little arc and she knows that at some point she'll return (but not for a while). Given that my niece loves the flashback-ness of Angel then I'm sure she'll love Darla's character journey. It's really compelling and original. Desperately sad at the same time. Darla is the only one who played off Angel in the same way Buffy did, but in more 'adult' situations. I'm looking forward to it. :)
     
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  20. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    Is that an actual theory or just drifting off into your dreamverse? Between IWRY and Forever we get to see Buffy still has strong feelings for Angel, she just knows they can't be together. So my alternative theory is that she sees a person she loves cosying up with the person who has terrorised her and it turns her stomach and makes her blood boil.
     
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