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Angel Season 5 = Most Boring Season imo

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by Joshua, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. Spanish Flame

    Spanish Flame It's Not Easy Being Green

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    I rewatched yesterday this ep. And for me it still is one of the bests. And for g** s**, it brings some light and fun in all the apocalypse thing!!

    Spike is hilarious being optimist and the Harmony part of "Oh my God they killed Lorney-Tunes". Just a little breeze in the whole thing of fighting the evil ones! :p:D
     
  2. kamui3

    kamui3 Townie

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    I really enjoy season 5 despite its flaws. I get the impression that the writers had to rush a lot of the seasonal arc because they found out they were getting cancelled. That had a major impact on the story they had planned.
     
  3. matt124

    matt124 Potential

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    Cordelia's absence really was felt in season 5. She was the heart and soul of Angel. It is why I don't like season 5 as much. And not just Cordelia, Season 5 is my least favorite season of Angel, had we gotten a season 6. I might appreciate it more, but for a final season it sucked.

    I didn't like Wolfram and Heart, and miss Angel Investigations. Again it does again come down to not getting a season 6, but again I might have still ranked it at the bottom of Angel seasons, just I was never a fan of the moving to WAH, and glad it wasn't intended to be more than 1 season if it kept going.

    To this day, I am still bitter about Angel being cancelled. I guess what drives me more mad, is how many shows freaking keep going on for too long. When Angel was cut short so soon. Had Buffy and Angel been made today on the CW, they would of lasted well longer than they did. Angel deserves a revival over shows like Gilmore Girls, X-Files and Prison Break. But sadly we will never get that.
     
  4. khaleesik

    khaleesik Townie

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    Alright I'm late on this train but here I come.

    I am watching season 5 of Angel now and WOW. Honestly the best season I've seen of anything since season 3 of Buffy. I don't have words.

    Obviously I am mourning Cordelia - she is my overall favorite character (see avatar... I found at one point that I loved her even more than I loved BUFFY and I was shocked but accepted it. Cordy destroys on Angel and I love her) and then to take Fred from us right after was downright cruel. To make it even more cruel I spent the beginning of that episode reflecting on how much I LOVED Fred - at first I found her to be very irritating but her character grew on me so much and I eventually thought she was amazing and ugh ugh UGH. It's like "Oh yeah let's rub in how great Fred is and FINALLY put her with Wes... oh wait byeee"

    But then it's like somehow I love Ilyria too. Joss is just a genius and I hate him.

    I would have expected to hate the show without Cordy as she is my ultimate favorite character in the Buffyverse but somehow I am still loving season 5 even after her death. It's the perfect mix of funny episodes (Angel as a puppet - oh my god) and serious episodes. There are some obvious flops (the five brothers one and the submarine one) but overall this is my favorite season of Angel. Season 4 was too depressing and stressful. Also Connor's episode on this season I LITERALLY LOST MY ****ING SHIT SO GOOD AND IM GONNA SCREAM.

    Also people complaining at Harm - ok yes she's ridiculous and annoying but there is something about bringing her back on the show time after time again. And having her somehow be a part of the team. Like who would have thought this random-af Cordelia follower would have become such a recurring character? It reminded me of Jonathan's ranom eps until he becomes one of the main evil guys in Buffy like WOW ok Joss with the incredible foresight once again! (Can we talk about the ep. with Buffy and Faith and "Dawn is coming" like !!!!!!!!!! no words) Honestly I loved Harm's Way. I feel like I was cackling the entire time. Poor Harm.

    Honestly I'm f****ng upset that I'm gonna finish Angel and that I've already finished Buffy. Tempted to rewatch everything again immediately. Wow.

    Also I'm struggling to get friends into it because Buffy's first two seasons are so freaking campy and cheesy. I started watching when I was 15 and I'm 22 now - I took a long break in between season 2 and 3 (like think a 3 year break!) because I couldn't get into the first two seasons and I don't know how to convince (force) my friends to grin and bear it until they get to the genius that is season 3. SOS.

    Anyways just drunk-wrote this entire thing. I am on episode 19 and just dont want it to end. have started reading the comics. send help maybe.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 11, 2017 ---
    sorry to double post but honestly I think it's good they ended. SPN is one of my favorite shows on now but at this point it is ridiculous and there have been so many seasons where I've been like "this needs to end rn"

    CW just needs to cut their losses at this point

    There is a natural death to every plot. I think even Buffy extended hers a bit - season 7 was very boring and choppy imo until the last ep. Angel's so far seems like a good place to end (although I would have loved some more spin offs or continuation simply because I love the Buffyverse and I don't want it to be done)
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  5. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    @khaleesik I don't share your opinion on AtS season 5 (though I used to) but it's been really fun reading your post. It's nice to see some people so enthusiastic about the shows, especially when it's the last seasons. I definitely felt like you though when I did my rewatch, I didn't want it to end. And I felt a sort of numbness after I finished the series finale.

    I don't watch SPN, but I'm like that with my favorite shows too. After 5 seasons (sometimes even 4), I already want it to end so I can still get to love it without it going in circles and turning bad.
     
  6. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    Just saw this thread.
    I'm glad other people feel the way I do. It was a literal struggle to make it through this season. If it hadn't been the last season, I don't think I would have made it through to the end. It was painfully boring and entirely way too much focus on Spike. I'm not sure what's Whedon's deal with Spike, but it's not good. He puts too much focus on him pushing the scoobies aside in s7 and the A.I. team away in s5. Not good Whedon, not good! Honestly, Spike should have just been left dead.

    Fred should have been kept alive and have another actress play Illyria if they were dead set on Illyria being a character. I also thought Illyria was a waste. It was too late in the series to introduce a new character like that, especially when ruining Fred's character who had been there for almost 3 seasons.

    Fresley was extremely drawn out and boring.
    I missed street smarts Gunn, not everyone has to be a brain to get shit done.

    Harmony was annoying. The episode that was entirely focused on her was definitely the worst episode of the entire Buffyverse. I don't care at all about Harmony. At least she was kind of funny on BtVS, but she felt out of place on AtS.

    I'm actually okay with Eve. She is no Lilah, but at least she served a purpose by tying Lindsay back into the story.

    I hated the change of location and the fact that Angel & Spike could just walk around during the day with the sun glaring through the windows. This isn't TVD, vampires are supposed to be vulnerable to the sun. I missed the hotel to say the least.

    You could really feel Cordy's absence, which is probably why You're Welcome was the highlight of the season for me. But, she really should have interacted with more of the team besides Angel.

    At least Not Fade Away was an appropriate finale and got back to what the show was actually about: the never ending fight. But, overall this season was a boring mess.
     
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  7. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    It would have been okay for me if Spike wasn't there, I mean Angel and Spike have good banter but it got old quick for me :D also I was pissed that he had that heroic and dramatic death that consumed the Buffy finale and then there he was consuming Angel's final season. I'm sure I'm in the minority though because I've seen many people say that Spike was the highlight of season 5.
     
    BuffyBot22: I'm right there with you!
  8. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    ^ im one of those people. I loved Spike in season 5. After the dark depression of season 4 I personally feel he brought this great energy and vibrancy to 5. I'm also in the minority of people who love petty Angel, so of course I adored those 2 together. Talk about chemistry!!! I thought they really worked off each other great and I loved loved LOVED their fight in Destiny.

    I understand a lot of people resent Spike because he does tend to consume the seasons. But I honestly think it's because James really brings so much to every scene he's in. Personally I feel he has this charisma and he's definitely a scene stealer. I personally hated all the time he got in season 7 because it took away from the core 4, but I can't help but admit that he is definitely compelling.

    Just my 2 cents.

    I love season 5 overall cause I really enjoy slot of the episodes, and I thought it was an interesting story to have them be in Wolfram and Hart.

    My biggest beef is the character of Angel himself. He is so far removed from the champion in season 1 that it's like an entirely new character and I don't really like him much :(
     
    Guy: Agreed! And I didn't like Angel in the first place, so not liking him in season 5 was just business as usual :)
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  9. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I'm with you. :)
    Season 5 is BY FAR the best season of the show. It practically re-invented the premise of 'Angel', and this new premise was so much better than the old one. Wolfram and Hart was just such a perfect setting for these stories - there's constant conflict between the cynicism of W&H and the idealism of team Angel, constant attempts to corrupt our heroes, and it's great.

    And I don't care what anyone says - Harmony is precious! :p

    [​IMG] the-forgotten-reel.blogspot.co.il/
     
    GraceK: Harmony is my boo :)
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  10. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Spike was in 97/144 Buffy episodes (not including episodes where he's just mentioned or talked about) and then 24 Angel episodes (I research these things lol). I just had enough of him by the end but fair enough if you appreciated all his screentime :D
     
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  11. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Well, you didn't get enough of Angel after he appeared in 57 episodes of 'Buffy' and 110 episodes of 'Angel', right? I don't think that screentime is a factor in how much one loves a character...

    [​IMG] epicrapbattlesofhistory.wikia.com/wiki/File:Just-saying.gif
     
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  12. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    But that's what AtS is and why I prefer it over Buffy. AtS is dark, adult, gritty and depressing. Vibrant is better left for BtVS. And Spike didn't serve a purpose except fan service when Whedon, just like on BtVS, refused to make him part of the team for half of the Season. So his stories had nothing to do with the main arc (except for Lindsay) yet he still had to have more screen time than all the other characters.

    Speaking of Lindsay and Angel...much better chemistry and tension. Since S1 those two should have been getting it on in secret. Spike and Angel only have comedy duo chemistry. I prefer L&A.

    Angel: I want you Lindsay.

    Damn straight.

    I'm not a fan of of James' acting. He always performs like he is on stage instead of in front of a camera. James we all have a front row view, you don't need to act as if people way far away in the 50th row need to also get what you are doing. And the scenery chewing he's been doing since S5 of BtVS annoys the hell out of me. And don't get me started on acting ticks. Head tilts, tongue lolling, raised eyebrow and the literal sucking in of his cheeks. I'm not saying he's a bad actor (he's actually quite good) but there is only so much I can tolerate.

    I ignore Angel's characterization this Season along with anything post-ATF. Whedon!Angel is not my Angel.

    I can't blame all the crap of S5 on Whedon though. The network wanted no arcs (F U WB that's why I love the show), a brighter setting (HELLO WB, vampires) and they wanted Spike alive as a condition for S5. I'm just glad WB and Whedon messed up and there was no S6 because S6 would have added Andrew to the show (can't Lenk get you off in private Whedon?) and he absolutely does not fit the tone of my beloved AtS. I do blame him for Harmony though and what he did to Charisma/Cordy. And swapping Lilah with Eve (blech).
     
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  13. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Yeah I know just for me personally there was too much Spike :)
     
    Guy: That's fair :)
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  14. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    While the reason for Spike's inclusion was obviously fan-service, that doesn't mean that he served no purpose in the story. Spike's function in season 5 was as a counterpoint to Angel - just like Faith was to Buffy, for example. In season 5, Angel "sold out", so Spike was used to represent a person who DIDN'T sell out, as a contrast. Hence - "cavemen versus astronauts". It was relevant to the thematic conflict of the season.

    And Spike's stories didn't have anything to do with the main arc (in the first half of the season) because there WAS no main arc at that point. And once the main arc finally started, Spike had already joined the team.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  15. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Most of the Spike/Angel scenes in season 5 just seemed forced and/or comedic to me, which didn't build an interesting story. The comparisons between Angel/Spike ran sort of like a joke for me, whereas Buffy and Faith complemented each other's characters and nothing felt forced, which made it interesting. But that's just how I saw things, I'm sure not everyone agrees :D
     
    Carrie Hopewell: I agree :)
    BuffyBot22: I also agree!
  16. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    Personally, the only episode in which the dynamic between angel/spike was meaningful was Damage. The rest (while I do also enjoy the banter and petty Angel) was just forced conflict for the sake of comedy and repeating what Whedon knew would make the fans care (the old who's better blablabla)
     
  17. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I have no problem with Spike's involvement in the season. He is a major character in the verse and is a major part of Angel's story. There was a lot that hadn't been explored between them, not least when working on the same team. I know that a lot people have said that Faith would have been a better choice for S5. The problem with that is that Faith had already completed her arc on Angel (and quite nicely on Buffy), and had always worked better as a cameo or supporting character. Spike had shown that he had broad appeal.

    As for calling this season the most boring? No I can't agree. It has plenty of flaws, but very rarely would I call it boring. Since I'm no fan of Connor I would say the Connor heavy S4 is more boring. And though I like S3 the end of the season he really sucks the life out of. Those last few episodes are a real drag for me.
     
  18. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Except Angel didn't sell out, neither at the end of S4 nor in S5. So Spike as counterpoint doesn't even work. And frankly it just makes Spike look stupid when he shoots his mouth off without knowing the facts. But then that's Spike, I guess.

    You can still make him part of the team instead of keeping him separate from the group. With separate storylines. I care about my AI team, some of whom I saw precious little of because it was all Spike, all the time. The only one else who got decent screen time was Fred, largely because Spike spend lots of time with her.

    Spike is neither a major part of Angel's story (beyond being the same bloodline) nor was he anything in the Angelverse up until that point. Faith however had a huge impact on Wesley. Faith and Angel had a history of which huge parts took place on AtS. And she already knew the AI team. And while she may have completed her 'homicidal maniac turned good gal' arc, that doesn't mean anything. A person's life is more than one arc.

    IMO she would have worked better. Should have brought her in instead of Andrew during 'crazy slayer' episode. And from then on be part of the AtS cast. Former crazy slayer bringing in current crazy slayer. She would also be a daily reminder of what Angel stood for and wanted to achieve. In a Season that spends so much time portraying Angel as anything from self-doubting to corrupt (even if faked), for metaphorical and symbolic reasons Faith would have been perfect.

    As for Spike's appeal. Since the ratings didn't skyrocket like the WB had hoped by insisting he be part of the show, I'd say his appeal is limited.
     
  19. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Angel didn't intend to sell out, sure, but he still kinda did it. When you work from within a company like W&H, then there's a certain level of sell-out-ness there. It doesn't necessarily mean that Angel made the wrong decision there, but that decision DID have many flawed aspects, and Spike was used to call out those aspects. And sure, Spike didn't know all the facts, but he still made lots of good points.

    Well, to each their own. But anyway - even if Spike was part of the team from the start, you'd still be annoyed - because that means that you'd see even more of him. As it is, there were many scenes in which he didn't appear, because they only showed the original team.

    The ratings DID rise. Not astronomically, but it was still better than the previous season. Which is pretty impressive, because the show saw a consistent decline of ratings since season 1. Season 5 was the ONLY season of the show which had a higher rating than the previous one:
    (Angel (1999 TV series) - Wikipedia).

    Clearly, they were doing something right in season 5, from WB's perspective.


    1) Why not both? :)

    2) I gotta disagree about Faith working better as a supporting character. I always preferred the episodes in which she was central - 'Who Are You', 'Five by Five', 'Release', etc... As a supporting character (like she was in season 3 of 'Buffy') she was less interesting.
     
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  20. Bluebird

    Bluebird two by two, hands of blue

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    Black Thorn
    In my eyes it's not as good as season 4, but it really improves in the last half. It was a sudden change of pace, and felt more like a sitcom at times, but it also has some of my favourite writing.

    I don't have a problem with Spike but the way he is shoehorned in is a bit of an eye-roller. It seemed Spike was the saviour of both Buffy and Angel in that he had to be there no matter the reason.
     
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