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Angel Season 5 = Most Boring Season imo

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by Joshua, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I think he is actually. You have to factor in the history with them over Dru and Buffy. Not to mention the fact that apart from the brief flashbacks from the past, we had seen very little of Spike and Angel working together on the same team. I think you need to think of what Angel-Spike means in the overall verse, not just ATS side of things. Point taken on Faith, but that doesn't change my opinion that she worked better as a supporting character or in cameo appearances. Which is why she makes such an impact in This Year's Girl/Who Are You? and Five by Five/Sanctuary IMO. One of the differences between the two characters is that Masters just has greater range as an actor and so can carry it over a longer period.

    Interesting idea. I can see how she would have worked better than Andrew in that role, but then to me that is a short term kind of deal anyway.

    You can't blame one character for a sinking ship. Fact is at that point Angel as a show had peaked for most people, and the masses had just decided that it wasn't for them. I don't think including Spike for one season was ever going to change that, and its no reflection on the character.
     
  2. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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  3. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    --- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2017 ---
    @RomanticSoul You are majorly picking hairs now:D It doesn't matter why the ratings improved when Spike jumped ship, the fact is they did. And its not my understanding that the ratings decline in Buffy S6. I thought it was around that time that the show was drawing its biggest ratings, of course being on a bigger network helped;)
     
  4. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    To be fair season 4 of Angel is widely disliked and know to be Angel's worse season. It's not really saying much that the ratings improved from season 4! :D
     
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  5. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Overall I like Season 5, it's more memorable overall and has some great episodes, but there are issues with it:

    Bland characters, like Eve. They couldn't even bring Lilah back? At least Lilah had a personality!
    The return of Spike: I love Spike, but he died in BtVS, and while I get it's a supernatural show and people can return, it lessened his Buffy death to bring him back straight away for the next season of Angel. I believe they even announced this before S5 started.
    The lack of Cordelia: You're Welcome is one of my favourite AtS episodes, but Cordy deserved more of a farewell than that

    Season 5 is a VAST improvement over Season 4. I think I need an Angel rewatch soon as I definitely remember more of S5 than I do of any other season.
     
  6. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Since when are numbers now just 'picking hairs'? The UPN had less coverage than the WB so the Buffy ratings would automatically decline compared to the previous Season. But after S6 the ratings slipped to S1 numbers in S7. If Spike is such a hit why the decline? It's also a known fact more people were watching reruns of the earlier Seasons (which was on another network) than newly released episodes. Nevermind that the UPN insisted on Spike wearing the coat again because of the crappy S7 ratings. Like that would any lol.

    A lot of people hated S4 of AtS and the ratings dropped a lot. But to attribute the rise in S5 ratings 100% to Spike being added to the show? Wishful thinking, as there were just as many people watching S5 because they wanted more from the verse as there were those that were fans of Spike. If you don't believe that then just have a look around old forums with live posts from 2003/2004.
     
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  7. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    This!! You just made me realize... Angel is a big part of Spike's story but Spike doesn't really matter as much when it comes to Angel's story. If they brought Spike over it wasn't for Angel, it was for Spike. For some reason, they decided to suddenly put Spike in Angel's face so he wouldn't be able to not be bothered by him. But Spike was never an important entity in Angel's characterization up until that point.
     
  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Between Spike's siring and Angel getting a soul there is only 18 years. We don't even know if the fanged 4 spend all those years as a group. Then there is the Boxer Rebellion stuff. And the one time they crossed path's in WWII. That's it. In vampire years that's NOTHING. Spike was totally insignificant to Angelus' and Angel's story.
     
  9. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Sorry for not replying earlier... Real life sometimes just sneaks up on you.

    I'm not thinking about it in absolutes. I don't think that Angel made the absolute wrong decision in joining W&H and that Spike was absolutely right to chastise him for that. I simply think that Angel's decision had many negatives aspects (in additions to positive ones! Which is what makes the conflict in that season compelling), and Spike called out those negative aspects in effective ways. That's all.

    Well, by season 5 David Boreanaz wasn't ripped anymore, so James Marsters was a better tool for fan-service. :)


    Determining why ratings rise and fall is very tricky. All we know is that WB made many changes after season 4, and the ratings rose after those changes. Maybe the ratings rose because of the changes, maybe they rose because of some other reason... But I'm just saying that from WB's perspective, season 5 was a success.

    Based on how awesome Faith was in season 9, I'm gonna say that she was perfectly cabable of being a series regular.

    (Besides, I always just wanted Faith to replace Angel as the main protagonist of the show...)

    Well, critical consensus seems to be that season 2 of AtS was better than season 1, and yet season 1 had much higher ratings. Given the fact that season 5 is the ONLY season of AtS to see a RISE in ratings, I think that rise was significant.

    Plus, season 4 is hardly universally despised. Personally, I'd rather watch season 4 over any of the first 3 seasons. It has more obvious flaws, sure, but it also hits much higher highs, and it has a much better thamatic arc, and it's just a lot more interesting, IMO. I'd rank the Angel seasons like this:
    S5 >>>>>>>>>>>> S4 > S1 = S2 = S3.
     
  10. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    But S9 Faith was in comic book form. That's a different kind of thing. I like the character, but I still think Spike was better at leading a season.
     
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  11. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Except Spike was never leading any Season whether that's BtVS or Angel. Faith was at least co-lead for 2 comic Seasons while Spike is batting a 0 there too.

    The point is, you can't judge someone if you don't know the facts. Spike had no idea about the real story yet he assumed he did. And you know what they say about assuming...

    Neither was James. The few times he had his shirt off in S5 you could clearly see that the ripped days of S6 Spike were long over. There was no muscle definition anymore. I mean I don't care either way but at least David was going through a tough medical situation. And people like you keep slamming him for his looks that Season. Talk about shallow.
     
  12. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Well, it's not like we ever saw Faith failing as a main character on TV... And Jessica Jones, who's VERY similar to Faith, is a fantastic protagonist. I'm sure that Faith could work perfectly as a lead character in TV too. But hey, no way of knowing...

    And I actually think that Spike is better as a supporting character. I mean, he can be great as a leading character, but as a supporting character, he's pretty much the best there is. He can be a villain, a reluctant ally, a comic-relief, a love -interest, an anti-hero, and a hero, and he could do it all fantastically. As a main character, though... Well, as a main character he's good. Very good. Just not AS good as he is in supporting roles.

    Spike did act as a main character in the comics, for quite a while - 'Spike: Asylum', 'Spike: Shadow Puppets', 'Spike: After the Fall', the 'Spike' series, in his mini-series in season 9, and I'm probably missing a few others. But as I said, I agree - Spike is better as a supporting character, and Faith is better as a leading character.

    Well, if Angel didn't keep Connor's situation a secret from everyone, then Spike would have known. As it is, Spike presented a reasonable POV, given the information that everyone else in team-Angel knew. You can't blame him for acting without the full story, when someone else (Angel) was actively trying to keep the full story from everyone.

    1) Hey, fan-service is a shallow thing. If we're gonna talk about it, we'll have to be shallow.

    2) I'm not SLAMMING David boreanaz for his looks. He was injured, after all, and hell - I'd be a huge hypocrite if I blamed him for getting overweight. I'm just stating a fact - in season 5, David Boreanaz wasn't ripped anymore. Personally, I don't care how he looks either way.
    (If I'd blame him for anything, it'd be his acting skills...:p)

    3) JM was still more ripped than DB at the time. But hey, if you think that that fan-service wasn't necessary, then I'd totally agree. To me, the best fan-service was just watching Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker acting drunk:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] www.snarksquad.com/2014/03/angel-s05-e05-lack-of-sleep-is-evil.html

    :D
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  13. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I agree. Acting as a supporting character gives Spike more freedom to be his badass self whereas if he was a leading character, he'd have to be a bit more moral. I think this was noticeable in Buffy. The more Spike got pushed to the forefront, the more "good" he got rather than being the morally dubious guy he was in season 2.

    Didn't JM deliberately stop working out because he was fed up of having to take his shirt off all the time?
     
  14. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think it's about how "good" Spike is, or how prominent he is in the story. I think it's about his function in the story - as the main protagonist (the character that serves as the audience's POV), Spike is not as good as he is when he's playing more supporting roles.

    And I love Spike in seasons 5-7 of 'Buffy'. He wasn't a main protagonist in those seasons - he was a love interest, and a villain-in-the-process-of-turning-good, and a comic-relief character, and he was great in all of those functions.

    Yep.
     
  15. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    None of those are main titles. They are either side stories or stand-alone stories which have nothing to do with the main one. BtVS and AtS main titles only ever had one lead. The exception being A&F S9-10 because there are 2 co-leads.

    Why can't I blame him? Spike is after all known for shooting his mouth off about things absent any facts. It's a character trait after all. The mind-wipe has nothing to do with it. Spike is making assumptions on his personal perception of who he thinks Angel is. Not because of any facts that he knows.

    No he wasn't anymore. But maybe I just have a different definition of 'ripped'. Considering I never thought DB was ever ripped and some people think otherwise.

    But by S5 AtS I was seriously asking myself if they even cared about JM's acting or if they just cared about his body. After 2 years on Buffy of over the top and often unnecessary nudity the WB stepped up their game and literally pimp-ed him out to the audience in AtS S5. Whenever Spike was naked in an episode the WB put that in a trailer and the episode came with a 'viewer discretion' warning. All while poor DB who couldn't work out was often completely naked save for a pillow covering his groin. And that never made it into trailers or came with a warning.
     
  16. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Sure. As I said, I actually agree with you. I was simply saying that Spike DID fill the function of a main character (as in, the function of being the audience's surrogate) for quite a long time in the comics - and since I didn't love those stories quite as much as I loved Spike's supporting role in other seasons, I think that Spike is better as a supporting character.

    Yes, Spike is a talker. But in season 5, Spike accused Angel of selling out because Angel hid his real reason for joining W&H from everyone, so, that wasn't Spike "shooting his mouth" - it was just Spike making valid accusations based on the facts he knows. I'd think the same thing in Spike's place.

    Yep. To each their own.

    Was Angel really naked a lot in season 5? I remember him naked in 'Life of the Party', but not much else. And I remember some times in which Spike was naked while Angel wasn't, for no reason - like in 5x20, when Spike and Angelus were being tortured, and Angel had his shirt on while Spike didn't.