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Angel...

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
5,948
Age
37
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WA State
I'm experiencing some serious conflict here.

It's Angel.

I'm re-watching season 3 of AtS, and well, you know how I uh, hate Angel? Well, I kinda love him in this season. Like, really, really love him. He almost makes me forget what he does later.

I love Angel's interactions with everyone in this season. I love him and Fred; his sensitivity to her crush on him, and his awkwardness in telling her there could never be anything between them. I love him and Cordy, sparring together and developing tentative feelings for one and other, building a relationship founded on respect and real mutual affection. I love him and Darla; reminiscing over their shared violent past, and finding redemption in the child they made together."¦But most of all, I love him and Baby Conner. Boy, do I love father Angel.

In this season, Angel is brave, and selfless, and vulnerable"¦and human. I can relate to him. I love his weird sense of humor and his old-fashioned phases"¦

What in God's name happened? When did he allow himself to be corrupted? When did he stop fighting the good fight? I want Angel back the way he was before he kills Conner and erases everyone's memories, before he sells his soul to Wolfram and Hart, before his gullibility allows him to become Twilight"¦

Help! Why did Joss do this to Angel?
 

zobothehobo

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
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30
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Raleigh, NC
Ats season 3 is the only time I really like Angel. Its Connor. I love the person Angel becomes with the baby. I love the interactions he has with everyone. I can feel what he feels in season 3. I'm tearing up just thinking about how much he loves that little boy... even before he's born.

And like you said, he's vulnerable and human... I feel his emotions in a way I don't feel them in any other season.

I love this Angel.
 

Kean

Professional Bangel
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
11,944
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34
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Ireland
Sineya
When did it go wrong? In my mind when it was decided to have Wes steal his son. Literally nothing is sacred in Angel's life. It can all be taken from him. It can all be used against him. And I think Angel really realises that in this season and the next one.
 

caritas08

lornelover
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
575
Location
Texas
I have read the comics so I'm assuming you're referring to them? Or Season 5? I really don't have a problem with Angel during his run on the show or Buffy.

I really love Angel. Most of what happens to him isn't his fault, yet he takes responsibility and doesn't give up anyway. He takes personal responsibility for everything he did as Angelus even though other characters who become possessed don't feel the need to feel guilty in the same way because it was "done to them". Angel doesn't allow himself this out and instead dedicates himself to a life of atonement without any hope for personal happiness or a happy ending even though none of what Angelus did was his fault.

As far as "killing Conner" and erasing everyone's memories. Conner was a psychopath (again not Angel's fault) and he did the only thing he knew how to protect Conner (and all of Conner's victims) from the consequences of Conner's insanity. I don't think Angel would have joined WR&H if it wasn't for that.

As far as the Twilight arc in the comics, that's a different discussion entirely as Angel isn't the only character that Joss has butchered and undone years of character growth and development with in Season 8.
 
T
The Scourge
[No message]

wickedtiger86

Scooby
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
1,774
Location
America
Sineya
I really loved him in this season too. Angel was actually my first celebrity crush. I know it's crazy to think about now with all of my obsessive Spike love but I do really appreciate Angel.

I love what he represents and what he's trying to do. He really is just trying to be a really decent human. It's hard enough for some people to be decent humans, let alone a vampire trying to do it.

And I love it when he succeeds and you can see what he's striving for and why he's trying for it so hard.

Season three is a great example of that. :)
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
LOL re:first paragraph. He was my second! Leo was first, around '96 :)

sisterofmercy

Ray of Sunshine..
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
1,614
Location
UK
I hate Angel usually but I loved him with Connor. It did bring out a really sweet side in him that made me forget how annoying he usually is. :p
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
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74
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rome, georgia
I think that I have to agree, in part, with what Miss K said above, but it wasn't as much Wes taking Connor as it was Connor himself. Once he was introduced as a character, both as an infant and as an adolescent, he changed the "atmosphere" of the show, just like Dawn did on "Buffy," but in a darker, more violent way. Frankly, I think that Joss sort of painted himself into a corner with Connor. He introduced him, so he HAD to use him somehow, and it just got blown all out of proportion to the rest of the show. Better if the kid had stayed in the hell dimension through the rest of the series and ATF, then popped back up as Twilight in Season 8.
 
C
caritas08
[No message]

Gum Gnome33

"Well, yeah..."
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
1,148
Sineya
I totally agree with this. Season three of Ats is when he's really at his best.

I like Angel a lot. I really do. But my biggest problem with him is that he is so easily corrupted/ can so easily revert back to his old ways. What happened at the end of Ats Season 2? I don't understand it. Why was it so easy for him to bite Buffy in GD2? And Twilight...seriously, it seems as though he's always walking on the edge; just three punches or one fun night on the edge of becoming Angelus again. Haven't his years of reflection and redemption taught him to become decent to the core, in spite of the volatility of the curse or anything else that might get in the way of doing/being good?
 

Marisa

Liver Alone
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,043
Location
roswell
I love Angel in all of his show. I have not read the comics but hear what he has done and well I don't know. I honestly don't know how he let himself go so far off track. In season five it seemed like he was getting himself back.
 

AlyInWonderland

A leaf on the wind
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
275
Location
The Lone Star State
Once Angel becomes too dark and broody then I really start to dislike him, and he gets annoying. But when he isn't that way, he is very enjoyable to watch and likable as a character.
 

BffyAngelBoi

Townie
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
45
Age
39
Location
Nashville
I totally agree with you, Joan, on the Angel-diggage.

Growing up I was always a bigger fan of Buffy than Angel, particularly when it came to the leads. I always related to Buffy because I could find so many similarities in our lives and often found something in common with the rest of the Scoobies as well.

Now that I'm re-watching (and then re-reading) both series in preparation for Season 9; I find myself loving Angel and the Fang Gang more than ever before. Maybe it's because I'm an adult now, and Angel and co's tales grab me so much more.

Buffy is still and will always be my number 1 girl, but now Angel is my number 1 boy. And I'm kinda looking more forward to Angel & Faith than Buffy this season.

As for Angel's deeds and actions in Season 8, the Nyazian Scroll's prophecy said the Tro-clon was a mystical convergence that would lead to either the ruination or the purification of the world. Assuming that "The Father will kill the Son" is the only portion Sahjahn changed in all of his time-meddling, everything that happened involving Conner and Angel from Jasmine's birth to the revelations about Conner's true "The Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart" makes complete sense with Angel's actions in Season 8. All of those events paved the road for Twilight (which itself can be interpreted as either a purification or ruination); Lilah even says Wolfram and Harts actions helped pave the road for Twilight as well.

Ye, gods, I can't wait for August 31! :D
 

Buffanator

got Spike?
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
531
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Spike's crypt
[god help me, everytime y'all say "Twilight" I think about that dolt sparkly vampire Edward & his gang... LOL]

I loved Angel, AND Angelus thru-out the entire Buffy/Angel series, but I don't count anything past the 7 seasons of Buffy &/or 5 seasons of Angel because the "continuance" just doesn't interest me.

IMO, it was season 3's Conner character who pushed Angel to a different level. Angel became a father, something he never even dreamed he could do, and I think he surprised himself that he became good at fatherhood. He was actually looking forward ot a future (maybe for the 1st time in his life....er, I mean... UNlife) That is, before his son was taken away. While I don't blame Wes for what he did (he WAS acting in the child's best interest, IMHO) I think it was the growing up in the hell dimension part that really put Angel on the defensive. He blamed himself that he couldn't "save" Connor and self-blame almost always internalizes into self-destruction. It was that slow self-destruction that led Angel to his "corruption" - trying to fight W&H from the inside, allowing Fred to die, etc. But thru all that, I still saw Angel as a good man. His attempt at self redemption wavered on occasion (letting Dru & Darla eat a bunch of W&H people, god that still makes me laugh) but it never stopped. He was still fighting the good fight, albeit not always in the smartest way or maybe not even in the best way, but it was ANGEL'S way.

I still watch my DVDs with alarming regularity. :D
 

Chosen Enemy

Losing my soul
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
3,430
Age
36
I used to be in love with him when he was on Buffy. Now I'm hating him more and more. Not sure why, but I cannot stand him anymore.

When he moved to his own series, he became too serious. Not broody, just stuck up tight-a**. The climax of that, where he really became annoying to death was when he fired Cordelia, Welsey and Gunn. I feel like he's too much into his mission that he's lost his personality. It became his whole life and he never stops to think about other things. Even love. It took time until he opened up for something like that. He just needs to get a life that is not evil fighting only. Look at Buffy for example. She a Slayer and she has a mission. But she has a life besides the slaying. That's what bothers me about Angel I think.
 

zobothehobo

Scooby
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
4,320
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30
Location
Raleigh, NC
I used to be in love with him when he was on Buffy. Now I'm hating him more and more. Not sure why, but I cannot stand him anymore.

When he moved to his own series, he became too serious. Not broody, just stuck up tight-a**. The climax of that, where he really became annoying to death was when he fired Cordelia, Welsey and Gunn. I feel like he's too much into his mission that he's lost his personality. It became his whole life and he never stops to think about other things. Even love. It took time until he opened up for something like that. He just needs to get a life that is not evil fighting only. Look at Buffy for example. She a Slayer and she has a mission. But she has a life besides the slaying. That's what bothers me about Angel I think.

Exactly! In this season (season 3) Angel has a life other than his work. In season 4, it goes back to business.... but he's WAY to serious for me. He's always all work and no play. It's sad and depressing to me.
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
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Messages
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I feel like he's too much into his mission that he's lost his personality. It became his whole life and he never stops to think about other things.

I'm not so sure that the mission per se was the problem as it was Angel's approach to it. He started out pretty much like a Slayer with Doyle as his Watcher, guiding him along the path that was supposed to lead, eventually, to his redemption. When Doyle died, Angel did his best to continue the fight, but somewhere along the line he seemed to have substituted his redemption for his mission as his ultimate goal. Once he did that, the whole thing started going down, and ultimately ended with Twilight. Hopefully, the aftermath of that, and the severity of what he did will put him back on track.
 
B
BffyAngelBoi
Just like Wes said in Cordy's bizarro "Birthday" world: when his best friend Doyle died, Angel changed.
Joined
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Joss is amazing at ruining characters. Angel has always been one of my favorite characters, but he's not my favorite in the later seasons. Actually, Fred becomes my favorite, and then yeah. Joss ruins good characters very well.
 

caritas08

lornelover
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
575
Location
Texas
Maybe I'm alone, but I think Angel's character improved when he got his own show. It showed him to be a more multifaceted, layered "human" character. Unfortunately, most people are going to let you down during their lifetime. There are a few rare people who don't (like Tara) and I do agree that Joss "ruins" characters by making them make choices that I personally don't think they would make, it does make them more human and vulnerable and I can usually forgive them and still like their characters.
 

BffyAngelBoi

Townie
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
45
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39
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Nashville
Joss is amazing at ruining characters.... Actually, Fred becomes my favorite, and then yeah. Joss ruins good characters very well.

Sorry, Wills, but I have to disagree with you there. Fred wasn't ruined; she died. There's a difference. She didn't make bad decisions that made us all think less of her; she died. When this happened, an amazing new character was introduced in her killer. While yes, Illyria happens to have memories of Fred, she's not Fred; they are two totally separate characters.

Don't get me wrong: I love Fred. Just watched "Waiting in the Wings" this morning and got all teary-eyed during over her and Gunn, and I also cry like a baby - I'm talking full on don't-look-at-me ugly cry every time I hear her say, "Please, Wesley, why can't I stay?" in "A Hole in the World". But I also LOVE Illyria.
 
W
Willow My Love
I never said Joss ruined Fred.

BffyAngelBoi

Townie
Joined
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45
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My apologies, Willow... I misunderstood your statement about her.
 
W
Willow My Love
I meant that she died. That's how he ruined her character, because she was no more. Even her soul was destroyed. He literally destroyed Fred's character.
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