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Angel's Awakening Fantasy

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by Fool for Buffy, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    I'm afraid this is one of the things I understand the least when it comes to interpretation of a dream. I think it makes much less sense than any part of Restless. Not because of the working together, Angel being alongside Connor, or the sex, but because of the magical sword, the shamim being evil, and, most notably the Raiders of the Lost Ark fantasy journey. For those who may have understood this better, how do you interpret this fantasy and what does it mean for Angel? Also, is it realistic that Angel would have imagined Cordelia to be his moment of perfect happiness? I was also bothered by that.
     
  2. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

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    Refresh my memory which episode was this?
     
  3. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    Season 4 episode 10. A shamin does a spell to extract Angel's soul and he imagines a scenario where it would happen.
     
  4. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    The whole thing is set up as a big hero adventure in which Angel fights the evil lurking, everyone comes together and forget all the problems they've had (Wesley apologizes and Angel forgives him, Angel and Connor come to an understanding, Cordelia reassures Angel that his past doesn't matter and that she loves him) and ends with Angel getting the girl.

    The day was set up so he'd had the perfect hero day which I think was all that was going to work to give him true happiness at this point because after knowing of the happiness clause and being this damaged by Angelus's acts on BtVS s2, the only way he was going to be able to reach that point again was through an hero journey where everyone in his life completely accepts him.
     
  5. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    This makes sense, but I guess I'm still wondering what makes an underground journey through boobie traps a perfect hero day.
     
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  6. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    It is not realistic. But what can you do? Different networks. Can't bring in Buffy. And then the saying her name at the end of the dream sequence was - I don't know what that was.

    But I have heard commentary from writers along the lines of what @Mylie says where the conditions for Angel's curse to be lifted had to be that he had the perfect hero's day. He had to be win the day, all of his friends had to apologize and accept him, Connor had to be ok with him and then he gets the girl which is just icing on the cake.

    I personally hate this sequence of events in this episode. First of all, is this a dream? If so, are you telling me that Angel has never had wet dreams about Buffy? If so wouldn't have lost his soul a while ago? Also, in this scenario wherein he is getting his perfect happiness how is he so quick to forgive and forget the fact that Cordy slept with his son, and proceed so smoothly into going to bed with her. I would think he would feel strange about sleeping with the woman who slept with his son a few weeks before, strange enough so that it would at the very least prevent perfect happiness.

    I wish they had brought in the Shamin to forcibly remove the soul without needing to create a moment of perfect happiness. I'm sure they could have come up with a story where they just did a crazy spell and put his soul in a bottle.
     
    Fool for Buffy: Yes I agree with all of this. I'm glad someone else is just as frustrated as I am :)
  7. Tez

    Tez Townie

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    It is dream but the Sharman made it reality or at least angels reality that's what he said at the end so it made the dream have the effect of if it was real
     
  8. Puppet

    Puppet My ass is not pansy!

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    Black Thorn
    I never found it terribly logical either and tend to skip it in a lot of rewatches, despite being the episode right before my favorite Angel arc begins :)
     
  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    It's been awhile since I last saw the episode in question, but, as I recall, the last word that Angel spoke before his soul departed was, "Buffy." I think that this was just the writers' way of somehow justifying the "moment of perfect happiness" clause in Angelus' curse, by somehow giving the impression that, despite the fact that none of his imagined fantasy actually included her, it was his memory of her that ultimately cost him his soul.

    (And, now that I look back over this, the explanation makes even less sense than the plot device)
     
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  10. MarieVampSlayer

    MarieVampSlayer I’m the thing that monsters have nightmares about!

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    Sineya
    IMO a perfect day and sex with Cordy would never cause him to lose his soul . We all know that what caused Angel to loose his soul in S2 is not the sex with Buffy but the moment of bliss he has after laying in bed with her. So to me it was kinda cheap and stupid to have that be his perfect moment.

    The more realistic thing would have been a perfect reconciliation with Connor. Loving your children is actually considered the ultimate love because you love them inconditionaly. The last scene of the dream should have been a heart to heart moment with his son where Connor says he forgive him and love him. That to me would be Angel's perfect moment because he would finally have the love and acceptance of his son.
     
  11. AlphaFoxtrot

    AlphaFoxtrot Potential

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    I liked it. It would have been easy for some guy in a hood mask to have waived his arms around, shouted something in Latin, and remove Angel's soul. But instead, he used illusions to manipulate him into having that one moment of perfect happiness. He got his heart's desire, he had his happy ending, and that caused him to lose his soul.
     
  12. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    A theory I have heard is that the Shamin went into Angel's head and saw how he lost his soul before, in Surprise. The Shamin saw the whole day; Angel had an adventure with Buffy, won against the bad guy, he was accepted within the group, they invited him to help organise her birthday party and finally Buffy and he make love, and of course when he wakes up he calls out 'Buffy'. The Shamin saw these memories and tried to recreate them to achieve the same effect.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
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  13. EarthLogic

    EarthLogic Class Protector

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    I've always believed that the shaman didn't create the dream so that Angel would lose his soul, but rather it was the other way around: Angel's mind experienced the loss of his soul as a dream sequence. It would be similar to how if you're asleep and there's noise going on around or near you - say someone knocking or calling your name - your brain sometimes incorporates that into whatever dream you're having at the time.

    So say the spell took about 10 minutes to complete. In that time Angel's body would have felt the slow extraction of his soul, but his brain interpreted it as this fantasy of heroism and reconciliation.

    I think it makes more sense this way. Just because a moment of perfect happiness breaks the curse, it doesn't mean there aren't other ways of forcibly extracting a soul. The Mayor tried it in 'Enemies' - the only reason it failed was because the shaman there owed Giles a favour.

    Ok scratch that - just went back to check the transcript. The shaman does say the 'vision becomes reality'. But still, I like my way better.:p
     
  14. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    It should have been Buffy. But then: What if the spell was dependent on the dream being believable? Angel had to see the events as real, not just wish-fulfilment.

    If Willow jumped in through the window and turned him into a human with superpowers and Buffy came swooping in and dragged him off to a room to replay the drawing scene from Titanic, Angel may have smelled a rat or it may not have felt as real as it should.
     
  15. crazysoulless

    crazysoulless Scooby

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    Angel as a character really went down hill for his perfect happiness to go from pseudo marrying his girlfriend (with rings designed in Galway, Ireland), telling her "I love you" for the first time, making love on her birthday, and falling asleep in each other's arms to the abomination that was Awakening.

    He's Batman. He's Indiana Jones. He's a horrible father who sees his only child (who survived 17 out of his 18 years in a Hell dimension) lose his virginity to his first love, a girl he lives alone with in a rundown abandoned building, and has him give his blessing for his dad to nail her because he's the better man.

    And he couldn't tell she was possessed.

    He was dreaming of sex with his ancient PTB granddaughter possessing Cordelia while pregnant with his son's child.

    And just ignored the happiness clause so the sex would happen. In that fake dream world, was he banging Buffy in the early years of her show? Did he screw Darla just for the fun of it? How did he become Angelus and spend a century in Hell?
     
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  16. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    I thought Angel would lose his soul at the end of season 3. He thought he was getting along with Connor and he was going to tell Cordelia how he felt. I know it was Cordelia and not Buffy, but he seemed very happy.
     
  17. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I don’t exactly know what you mean here BUT it reminded me of a fan fic by @Kairos “Indeterminate Time” where Angel talks about his dream and he tells Buffy that in his fantasy dream, neither she nor, nor he really, existed....that he twisted all of his friends, Cordy and himself beyond recognition until it created the perfect environment for happiness. It does make you wonder if in this artificially created world Buffy didn’t exist thereby allowing the artificially created perfect happiness...
     
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