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Angelus in Season 4

Agent Z

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True, but then I think that's part of what makes that plot in Buffy so compelling that she is at such a fragile place emotionally (and because of her age), that she struggles with the idea of killing the Monster who is also the man she loves.
That's my point though. The danger isn't Angelus himself, it's Buffy's inability to put the safety of others above her own emotions. Angelus isn't any more of a threat than future of previous villains, he's supernatural equivalent of an asshole ex-boyfriend. Most of his kills are off screen extras we have no connection to and even Jenny only died because Angelus found out she was trying to restore his soul.
 

Mr Trick

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That's my point though. The danger isn't Angelus himself, it's Buffy's inability to put the safety of others above her own emotions. Angelus isn't any more of a threat than future of previous villains, he's supernatural equivalent of an asshole ex-boyfriend. Most of his kills are off screen extras we have no connection to and even Jenny only died because Angelus found out she was trying to restore his soul.
I still think he felt like a threat though. I think the performance and writing of the character was better in Buffy than in Angel. And what you are talking about is just good writing and that's why you feel the threat from Angelus because you care about what happens to the Scoobies. Sometimes less is more too. Because Angelus is quite a hammy character then I think he works better in small doses. Its also that sense he can take you out at any moment that makes him such a scary character.
 

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
I too was so desappointed when he came back because he could have help elevate a bad season. I think that he should have killed someone important even maybe Lilah instead of having evil Cordy doing the deed. I also think he would pursue and torture Connor the most. He would be mad at Connor for making him feel the fatherly love and would probably become obsess with him. Angelus always give himself challenges when it came to inflincting pain and Connor was his chance to torture his child, an opportunity he never got before. This would be new and exciting to him.
 

Fenrir

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I too was so desappointed when he came back because he could have help elevate a bad season. I think that he should have killed someone important even maybe Lilah instead of having evil Cordy doing the deed. I also think he would pursue and torture Connor the most. He would be mad at Connor for making him feel the fatherly love and would probably become obsess with him. Angelus always give himself challenges when it came to inflincting pain and Connor was his chance to torture his child, an opportunity he never got before. This would be new and exciting to him.
I always felt that Cordelia killing Lilah was random and unnecessary. There were better ways Why did Angelus drink her? Just for kicks? I guess it'd hurt Wesley as the one who'd arranged the removal of Wesley's soul but still, wouldn't it have been more worrying for the gang for them to discover Lilah had just been stabbed by... someone, something? Why didn't Angelus

But yeah, Angelus really didn't seem that focussed on one of the gang. Bit of a general screwing everyone around.
 

Jam

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I too am rather unimpressed with Angelus in season four. He just talks so much and with such energy (at least from what I can remember); the Angelus we see in season two of Buffy was a lot more quiet and it suited the character very well – it made the character a lot more menacing. If I remember correctly, David was allowed to improvise more as Angelus in season four and, quite frankly, it shows.
 

Vampire Willow

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Good I’m not alone in this. Though it’s incredibly hard to top S2 Angelus. Like, impossible. I know it was his big thing and they wanted to bring it back before the show took a bow (Because what would AtS be without Angelus?! Barring that one ep where he’s drugged. I also found that a pretty lame attempt)
I didn’t S4 Angelus was really bad , but he didn’t retain that certain allure he had as Angelus in Buffy. I kinda wish they didn’t bring Angelus back.. or under different circumstances (with the real Cordelia it could have been interesting.. or him and Lilah folding hands. Brb making that a fanfic)
 

slayer730

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I didn't mind David's acting performance, but I do think that Angelus doesn't really mesh well with the events that are going on in that season. If my memory serves correctly his introduction was maneuvered by Jasmine as a distraction of sorts, but honestly by that point The Beast blotting out the sun was way more effective at that so his purpose becomes questionable at best. His scenes behind the cage, the interactions with Faith in and outside of his head was all good stuff to me though.
 

NeddaSai

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I think part of it is because on AtS, he is the titular character so we had more Angelus screentime which equals more lines and more plot points for him. There was a lot of focus on him naturally, while on BtVS the focus was on Buffy with Angelus being a side character. Less is more when it comes to being menacing. On BtVS we were all in Buffy's shoes, with this monster lurking in the shadows not knowing what he will do next. On AtS that wasn't possible, the focus had to be on him, which didn't work since it removed the suspense.
 

Mr Trick

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I think part of it is because on AtS, he is the titular character so we had more Angelus screentime which equals more lines and more plot points for him. There was a lot of focus on him naturally, while on BtVS the focus was on Buffy with Angelus being a side character. Less is more when it comes to being menacing. On BtVS we were all in Buffy's shoes, with this monster lurking in the shadows not knowing what he will do next. On AtS that wasn't possible, the focus had to be on him, which didn't work since it removed the suspense.
This is true and I agree. I just think they went a bit too far with the hammy performance in Angel.
 

NeonSlayer

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I don't remember, did Angelus kill a bunch of people other than the Beast? I block out most of AtS.

On BtVS,
* killed a woman and breathed out her recent cigarette smoke
* accompanied The Judge to what would've been a massacre of hundreds of humans but it was thwarted
* killed another when Buffy had the night off then followed Buffy home
* broke into Buffy's house, sat on her bed, watched her sleep, and left her a portrait he drew of her
* left a box of roses on Buffy's doorstep with the note "soon" since Valentine's Day was coming up
* was possibly going to rape Buffy "I was planning on doing something for Buffy, actually to Buffy"
* broke Buffy's arm causing her to faint from the 103 fever she was suppressing then went to the hospital with flowers to troll her
* killed Enyos and wrote in blood on the wall for Buffy "was it good for you too?"
* killed Jenny and left her body in Giles' bed with a seduction setup downstairs leading to the loft then spied on Buffy's house to watch her find out from Giles
* sired Theresa when he realized she knew Buffy so when Buffy goes to stake her she says "Angel sends his love"
* was going to sire Gage because he knew Buffy but his blood was tainted
* killed children and left their bodies arranged like they were sleeping for their father to find then killed him
* killed Willow's fish and put them on a string in an envelope
* was going to murder Buffy's mom in her house after revealing he took her daughter's virginity
* sent a vampire to burn herself to death in Buffy's sunlit classroom to deliver a message
* framed Buffy for murder which led to the police trying to kill her and getting expelled from school
* tortured Giles (Buffy's Watcher) for hours
* started an apocalypse to suck the world into Hell
 

Grace

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Black Thorn
Does anyone else think AtS Season 3 kind of ruined Angelus? Like seeing Angel smiley in a goofy capacity made it harder to get the menace of Angelus across in the way it worked in BtVS Season 2?

We'd seen Angel in so many more moods that they probably overdid it with the hamminess to make it clear to the audience that soulless Angel was different. What was great about Angelus in Season 2 of BtVS is that we'd really never seen Angel so assured and comfortable in his own skin. So just him being smiley and confident was a shock, as twisted as it was.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Also he didn’t kill any fish in AtS s4.

white avenger

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I've always suspected that Charisma's unscheduled pregnancy during this Season threw a monkey wrench into Joss' previously carefully laid out story line, and he just had to slap a different set of elements together and hope for the best. Given those circumstances, some things, such as Jasmin's character and Angelus' characterization would have had to be modified just in order to keep the narrative going in a relatively smooth manner. Something similar had probably been done earlier, when the character of Doyle had been written out and Wesley substituted, with a greater degree of success, and Joss was just hoping that he could pull it off once more.
 

amawells

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I'm new to the boards but a long time fan and watched both shows at and since their original airing. I've been rewatching Angel, and just finished the Angelus arc in season 4. I thought he was 'bad' but not particularly scary or anything. In fact, when he walked out of the cage, I thought maybe he was faking being Angelus so he could get to the Beast-as it's been so long since I've watched this season, I didn't really remember all the details.

I do agree that he just didn't seem that scary or evil in Season 4. I was thinking maybe it's because as Angel, he has to got back and work with the core group again, and the writers decided not to have him do anything too terrible to any of the core group members. And, maybe because he is the also main focus of the show, the audience needed to be able to move on quickly from him being Angelus and back to Angel.

I'm not sure what the specific reasons are, but those are my thoughts, as I really did think they went 'easy' on him.
 
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
I wish he killed loads of people. I would enjoy that.

thrasherpix

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A missed opportunity IMO was Angelus not killing the vampire child (I know we have at least one member here who views vampires much like great cats, and great cats will devour cubs). He picks her up and then puts her back down complaining about no one being alive anymore.

If vampire blood tastes bad it shouldn't matter to someone starving. He should've been very willing to devour other vampires, particularly a child (and his doing so would help explain why child vampires are virtually nonexistent, as they're automatically snacks to other vampires). The little girl could've begged at first saying she hasn't fed, but Angelus sneers at her saying he can smell the blood in her and wonders if it was her mothers, and even if she's just an appetizer her screams will be a fine song for him. She screams and turned to dust in his arms as he feeds off her with Angelus brushing the dust off from his hands as he says, "Now I need a REAL meal." (Heads back.)
 
AlphaFoxtrot
AlphaFoxtrot
I assume Vampires are like Honey Ants, vamps can drain them just as easily as humans, but remember, Vampire life is precious.
thetopher
thetopher
Pretty sure Angelus killed a vamp in the bar by staking her. Rosaria? or something.

Btvs fan

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Angelus was a joke in S4. At one point DB even grins at the camera saying you can't beat a good book 📖😄

Evil Cordy said Angelus was crucial to her plans. How 🤷‍♂️
 

Angel6

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Funnily enough I totally agree and I re-watched this arc last night for the first time in years. I think series 4 is really a miss for me, Charisma is really moustache twirling too in those episodes, so it’s not a good mix!
 

MissChristina

👱🏻‍♀️👩🏻‍🦰🧑🏻👨🏼‍🏫
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I also never understood the whole point of this arc. Thats one of the things that really bother me about season 4...what was the point of beast? SO we are made to believe that Jasmine, through Cordelia, orchestrated this whole thing just to be born...but how does raising the beast, raising Angelus just to kill the beast, and then trying to kill Angel fit in? As soon as she slept with Connor and got pregnant all she had to do was wait...she could have easily manipulated Connor into sacrificing that girl anyway...I feel like all that other stuff really served no purpose.
I just re-watched “Salvage” episode 13, and was so confused as to why Angelus killed The Beast, I immediately searched this forum and stumbled onto your thread. What was the point of luring Faith to the factory for The Beast to kill her, only for Angelus to turn the tables?!?! And not only that, but he instantly regrets it when The Beast disintegrates and the sun reappears! Was it just curiosity? Angelus wondered if The Beast could be killed at all, and tried using the dagger shaped from The Beast’s bones, only to realize it works. But what was the point of The Beast?? What was the point of Angelus killing him?? Arrgghh..
 

thrasherpix

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I understood Angelus as killing the Beast because the Beast was trying to dominate Angelus and force him into an army or organization, which Angelus wasn't having. That is had the Beast and its master left Angelus alone, Angelus would've left them alone as well and just enjoyed the show.
 

Puppet

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Black Thorn
I understood Angelus as killing the Beast because the Beast was trying to dominate Angelus and force him into an army or organization, which Angelus wasn't having. That is had the Beast and its master left Angelus alone, Angelus would've left them alone as well and just enjoyed the show.
Agreed. Also, Angelus clearly didn't expect the return of the sun with the Beast's death, per his dialogue, but he also survived over 200 years having to get around the sun so it would never be as big of a deal for him as the newer vampires.
 

telperion66

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The first half of season four is what its all about. Ironically, up until the actual idea of summoning Angelus transpires every episode is very gripping and dramatic. The writers seriously dropped the ball, though, right about the time when it turns out that Angel's fantasy of killing the Beast never happened and Angelus was back.

Whilst the idea of keeping Angelus in a cage for him to interact with all the other characters and cause mayhem was great on paper, it was only carried off at 75% for me, whereas the season up until that point had been a 100% home run, hands down. With the advent of Jasmine and coma-Cordy, things just got worse for the rest of the season (which incidentally, I never re-watch). So, that dichotomy of an amazing first half of a season to such a disappointment in the second half shouldn't be lost on us. I even thought the Faith and Willow stuff was disappointing and the season was doomed from the point Angelus returned, really.

Just a note on Angelus, himself. In BTVS season two, DB is young, very attractive and alluring in his role as Angelus. By season four when they brought Angelus back, DB had aged noticeably and its as if the magic of his original BTVS portrayal of Angelus was entirely lost, and very different, actually.
 
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