• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Question Are Giles and Buffy partly responsible for Faith going evil?

Tank1978

Scooby
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
163
Age
42
Location
London
When Faith comes into Buffy she's alone and on the run. We learn that her dad was never in the picture and her mum was an addict. Her watcher killed.

There's been lots of discussion on how vulnerable Faith was and was desperate for attention and a need to feel wanted. She eventually found that with the Mayor.

However, should Buffy or Giles have taken her in and given her a stable home and environment? Both had enough space in their house. As Giles was watcher to both, should he have taken responsibility and given her a home rather than leave her in a cheap motel? If he had, would things have turned out differently?
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
276
Age
62
They aren’t at fault at all. It also would be Joyce’s choice for her to move in with them not Buffy’s. Giles also from what we saw only had one bedroom in his admittedly awesome apartment. I’d blame Faith’s living situation on the Watcher’s Council who don’t seem to notice that their slayer has travelled the length of the country after her watcher died

Buffy I have always believed does the absolute best she can for Faith, the problem is that she doesn’t know and doesn’t have the resources to know what Faith needs.The support Buffy offers is pretty much unconditional in Consequences, Faith has tried to frame her and nearly killed Xander and yet she doesn’t waiver in offering her support - the issue always was that she didn’t know the support Faith needed and that wasn’t her fault

Giles is shown twice in s3 to betotally oblivious to how troubled Faith is. Buffy has to push him in both F,H and T and Consequences to support her with Faith as she recognises she’s in emotional pain

What Faith desperately needed was an adult to step in, we see this in Amends. Her andBuffy clearly want to make up but they’re stubborn young girls and it takes the adult (Joyce) to basically step in and say come on now girls. Joyce was still trying to get her head around Buffy’s slayer ness and mentions throughout the season her fears of Buffy running away again - I think it’s understandable she’s just focused on keeping her own daughter on the straight and narrow. She clearly cared for Faith but wasn’t able to be what she needed, I actually have my doubts as to whether Faith would have accepted a ‘move in with us’ offer, it would totally go against her ‘I’m just fun doing what I please woooo!’ Image

I adore Faith but she’s a tragic character in that she’s in so much pain but ultimately believes that she is a bad person which is why she goes to the bad guy
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,135
Age
32
I agree about Giles. Faith becomes his responsibility after they speak to the Council, so he is an adult charged with taking care of her and he does an awful job of it (read: he seems to make absolutely no attempt at all to care for her materially or emotionally).

Buffy has no responsibility. She can't take it upon herself to house any orphan that comes her way. This isn't season 7.

And I don't think Faith living with Buffy would have worked out. Faith can be ... a lot ... in those early episodes. It might have made things worse. It takes Buffy a good while to get used to Dawn. How long would it take for her to get used to having Faith all up in her stuff.?
 

Athene

Scooby
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
2,392
Age
20
Sineya
I don't think Buffy was responsible at all because it's not her house to offer or her place to. And Buffy offers Faith so much emotional support- as in coming over to Faith's motel room a lot to check in on her and after the stuff goes down with Alan Buffy continues trying to help Faith even after she's framed for murder. Such a sweet touch when Buffy wants to go and get Faith's stuff from her room to make her more comfortable with being chained up in Angel's mansion 😂

Giles on the other hand was responsible for Faith because he was paid to be her and Buffy's watcher for a while. And all we saw Giles do was take Buffy and Faith patrolling.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
276
Age
62
I don't think Buffy was responsible at all because it's not her house to offer or her place to. And Buffy offers Faith so much emotional support- as in coming over to Faith's motel room a lot to check in on her and after the stuff goes down with Alan Buffy continues trying to help Faith even after she's framed for murder. Such a sweet touch when Buffy wants to go and get Faith's stuff from her room to make her more comfortable with being chained up in Angel's mansion 😂

Giles on the other hand was responsible for Faith because he was paid to be her and Buffy's watcher for a while. And all we saw Giles do was take Buffy and Faith patrolling.
being chained up AND being in those shiny leather pants. I have no doubt Buffy had her overalls of sadness in that bag ready to pass on to her sister slayer ‘this is what I wore when I thought I killed a man... perked me right up’

Plus this is Giles who upon hearing that Buffy who he loves as a daughter is having an existential crisis and is missing being dead leaves the country with a ‘your Mother taught
You all about life’ did she teach her about being depressed after being ripped from eternal peace? There’s still some variables in life Rupert
 
Athene
Athene
Overalls vs leather really does symbolise their different responses to killing someone

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
7,618
Location
UK
Faith is responsible for what Faith does. She arrives in Sunnydale and immediately lies about what's going on. She tells Giles and Buffy that her watcher has gone on a retreat. Why does she lie? Surely she knows the lie will eventually be discovered? Why doesn't she ask for help straight away, as that's the reason she's come to find Buffy in the first place.

I think if Giles, Buffy, Joyce, the Council etc. offered Faith a home, unconditional love, a barrelful of cash etc. none of it would be enough, because that's not who Faith was written to be. She's the embodiment of Bad Faith, when nothing is enough for her to take responsibility for herself or her own actions and be honest about both.
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,022
Age
73
Location
rome, georgia
I'm not really sure what Buffy could have done about Faith's living conditions when she first came to Sunnydale, but once Giles became her official Watcher, regardless of the fact that it was only supposed to be a temporary situation, he should most certainly have become responsible for seeing that she had proper quarters and even an allowance for living expenses. The fact that he didn't have to do that for Buffy is irrelevant. Buffy was living with her mother. She had a safe place to live, someone to see that she had the necessities of life, and simply someone who was there for her. Faith had none of those things, and, as far as we could say, Giles never even questioned where she slept at night or if she had enough to eat. Giles was accused of having a "father's pride and concern" for his Slayer, but that Slayer was Buffy. He never showed that kind of real pride or concern about Faith.

This is illustrated most clearly in his treatment of her after the Assistant Mayor was killed, and his allowing the others to pretty much treat her the same way. It defies all logic to think that that was the first time in the history of Watchers and Slayers that collateral damage, even to the point of the loss of human life, had ever happened. Giles should have explained that to both Buffy and Faith the moment that he became aware of the situation. Granted, he was probably put off initially by Faith trying to put the blame off on Buffy, but in reality it actually could just have easily been Buffy's fault, and that inaction probably wound up being a major factor in Faith forming her alliance with the Mayor, who, evil or not, seemed to actually care about Faith past her potential as a killer.

In his treatment of Faith, Giles, in Season 2, used her in pretty much the traditional way that most Watchers apparently treated their Slayers, as little more than a weapon to use in the fulfillment of the overall Mission, and he seems to have not even noticed, or maybe cared, about the difference in his treatment of her and his treatment of Buffy.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,256
Age
38
Buffy, no (too young). Giles, yes (he had an obligation to her). Given the circumstances.

Though I do put a lot of stock into blind (NOT "just") karma, and how we are all connected and how we treat each other eventually comes back at us and others (but in a blind way, cause and effect, not as some human notion of justice), which makes them all (including Faith, but also including many others we never see) at least a little responsible.
 

The Bronze

Rogue Demon Hunter
Joined
Jul 11, 2013
Messages
3,222
Age
34
Location
Essex
Black Thorn
Main responsibility is obviously with Faith. Not everyone who's had a bad life goes out to kill and rape.

That said Wesley and Giles should have done much more for her. Because she wasn't in school they treated her much more like a contractor than a kid/young adult partially in their care. Faith had a lot of darkness and might have went the same way whatever but they could have tried.

No responsibility on Buffy. She's a peer not guardian. She was good to Faith. Also had more than enough on her plate anyway.
 

Taake

Keeper of the Continuum Transfunctioner
Watcher
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
17,053
Age
34
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
I think Buffy did all that she could and the best that she could.

I agree though about Giles and Wesley, because - at least Wes later - they are representatives of the Watcher’s Council whose main business is looking after Slayers. Faith is a Slayer. She should have been more of a priority even before she went dark side. It is actually kind of surprising how hands-off they are after her Watcher died. It seems odd that they’d be all ”Giles/Wesley can handle two, that’s fine. No need to check up on this situation.”

Once Giles is fired though, and effectively a civilian, it would be nice of him to take her in of course. But taking on a troubled teen is a lot, taking on one with authority issues and super powers...

I feel for Faith, a lot, but her needs can’t change the fact that Buffy and Giles had a profound bond before she ever appeared, and their ”failures” to accomdate her needs to be included or seen, are not so much malicious as they are a sign that bonding takes time and that as hard as things were for her, it was also a challenge for them to accept this new person into their lives, hearts, and routines.

Basically, I think they did the best they could, and it wasn’t enough, because it won’t always be.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,405
Black Thorn
I would add Joyce to the list of people partly responsible as well.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
276
Age
62
I would add Joyce to the list of people partly responsible as well.
I’m happy to be harsh on Joyce on numerous occasions but I actually don’t think she has anything to feel guilty for with regards to Faith. Joyce has to adapt to her daughters secret identity - let’s not forget that she also finds out that Buffy has actually already died and we see her multiple times in s3 still fearing Buffy running away again. I think she’s trying to keep her own daughter in one peice and just doesn’t have the capacity to become a parent to someone else in this time. I think she shows a lot of kindness towards Faith and does as much as she feels she’s capable of
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ann

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,676
Age
30
I think Faith is responsible for her own choices. Trying to blame someone else for the decisions Faith made is denying her personal accountability.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,405
Black Thorn
I’m happy to be harsh on Joyce on numerous occasions but I actually don’t think she has anything to feel guilty for with regards to Faith.
I didn't say she had anything to feel guilty about, only that she could be held partly responsible.
I think she shows a lot of kindness towards Faith and does as much as she feels she’s capable of
Exactly. Invites her over for dinner, is nice and friendly and caring to her, when Joyce thinks Faith has something she wants, but then she just discards her - like everyone else - when she learns that Faith is no use to her.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
276
Age
62
I didn't say she had anything to feel guilty about, only that she could be held partly responsible.

Exactly. Invites her over for dinner, is nice and friendly and caring to her, when Joyce thinks Faith has something she wants, but then she just discards her - like everyone else - when she learns that Faith is no use to her.
If that was the case then she wouldn’t have invited her over for Christmas where she again shows her genuine kindness. She briefly discussed the possibility of her taking over when she’s just starting to understand the slayer role but I don’t see anything to suggest that she discards Faith after that. Even in This Years Girl/Who Are You she doesn’t go along with ‘Faith as Buffy’s’ ‘Faith is evil!’ Act and it’s clear she doesn’t see Faith as a bad person, more a troubled person ‘I think she’s horribly unhappy’ and says that she hopes she gets some help
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ann

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,405
Black Thorn
If that was the case then she wouldn’t have invited her over for Christmas where she again shows her genuine kindness.
That was my point. She dangled normality in front of Faith and then took it away. She didn't care for her at all despite her platitudes.
 

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
4,130
Age
33
Location
CA
Sineya
Ultimately, Faith is responsible for her own actions. But, Giles was her watcher, and maybe since the Watcher's Council didn't care, maybe he didn't, or was in no way capable of providing her housing, but he could have done more. We hardly see them interact and he's her watcher. Buffy could have done more to reach out to Faith, but she kind of does early on and Faith isn't having it. Example, at the end of Revelations, when Buffy comes to visit and Faith doesn't want to talk. In Consequences, Faith doesn't want to talk.

It's not Joyce's responsibility to invite Faith to live with her. However, we do know that Joyce knows Faith lives in a dingy motel, and has invited her over at least a couple of times. If, Dawn's bedroom existed before we actually got Dawn in season 5, then Joyce had an extra bedroom that Faith could have stayed in. But I find it odd that Joyce is just okay with Faith living in a dingy motel and out partying all the time. It seems like she would have had a conversation with Giles, and again I think Faith was Giles responsibility to take care of Faith. It doesn't help that we don't know Faith's age. Maybe the Watcher's Council was paying for the motel, that seems like something they would do. Other wise where is Faith getting the money for it.

but as far as her being "evil" that was Faith putting her trust in the Mayor, because she couldn't trust Giles and Buffy to take care of her. And really, that's what Faith wanted, was someone to care about her, not necessarily tell her what to do, but support her, and comfort her. And it took Angel caring for her in Sanctuary for her to turn her life around.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,676
Age
30
That was my point. She dangled normality in front of Faith and then took it away. She didn't care for her at all despite her platitudes.
Joyce doesn't owe Faith anything so I don't know why people think she should've invited Faith to live with her. Besides, Faith likes the freedom to come and go as she pleases, if she was a guest in someone's home then she can't do that.
 

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
4,130
Age
33
Location
CA
Sineya
Joyce doesn't owe Faith anything so I don't know why people think she should've invited Faith to live with her. Besides, Faith likes the freedom to come and go as she pleases, if she was a guest in someone's home then she can't do that.
No I don't think that Joyce owes Faith anything, she inviting her over for dinner and Christmas and possibly other times off screen. Again I think it depends on how old Faith is, I tend to think shes younger than Buffy by a few months, in which case I do think that Giles and even Joyce should be more concerned about Faith's living conditions. But if Faith is 19 or 20 than she's an adult responsible for herself, in which case it is nice for Joyce to offer her to come over every now and then but not at all responsible for Faith. I do think the Watcher's Council and Giles, should have done more for Faith though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ann
Top Bottom