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Arguments Against Arguments Against Spuffy

Miss Muffet

"Can I trade in the children for more cash?"
Joined
Apr 28, 2021
Messages
49
I saw this kind of thread on the Bangel page, and now I want to know what it's like on the Spuffy side.
What are some arguments you've seen about Spuffy, and how do you respond to them? What's your argument against other people's reasons they don't like Spuffy?
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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Well, it really depends on the argument. If someone comes up and tells me that they don't like the pairing and that it just doesn't click with them personally because they don't like "enemies to lovers" for example, then I'm not going to argue because it's just their taste and it would be as silly as trying to convince someone to like vanilla ice cream rather than strawberry ice cream. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Now if the person tries to argue on a "morality" basis or by having a radically different view of the characters involved or the dynamic, then we can talk ^^ But you'd have to give more concrete examples, because God knows that people can be very creative with their arguments when it comes to stuff they dislike.
 

Miss Muffet

"Can I trade in the children for more cash?"
Joined
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Messages
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But you'd have to give more concrete examples, because God knows that people can be very creative with their arguments when it comes to stuff they dislike.
For example, have you ever heard an argument that really got on your nerves? Or one that was really stupid? I can't think of anything examples off the top of my head.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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I guess the biggest argument against Spuffy is the attempted rape. I can completely understand why that turns people off the ship, but I say that if you can forgive Angel for the things he did without a soul, if you can forgive Faith (and others) for things they did with a soul, then there is something hypocritical about not being able to forgive Spike.

He did suffer because of what he did, it was the impetus that sent him for his soul. He eventually became Buffy's second in command and finally sacrificed himself to save the world and found redemption.
 

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
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My favorite one (i.e. the one I hate the most) is that Spuffy is only for fangirls of Spike because otherwise it doesn't make sense. It makes me very angry because they disregard all the arguments we try so hard to give as to why we like Spuffy. They treat us as airheads who are only attracted to Spike and have no capacity of being critical of his bad traits and of the toxic dynamics that Spuffy falls into at times (especially in S6). This argument comes over and over and over again and usually from the same people... in all honesty, it makes want to stop participating and giving my POV because it seems useless.
 
Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
Oh this one is the worst.

GothicBuffy

Slayer
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My favorite one (i.e. the one I hate the most) is that Spuffy is only for fangirls of Spike because otherwise it doesn't make sense. It makes me very angry because they disregard all the arguments we try so hard to give as to why we like Spuffy. They treat us as airheads who are only attracted to Spike and have no capacity of being critical of his bad traits and of the toxic dynamics that Spuffy falls into at times (especially in S6). This argument comes over and over and over again and usually from the same people... in all honesty, it makes want to stop participating and giving my POV because it seems useless.
Yeah! Like I love Spike and Spuffy because I believe Spike was the best one for Buffy.... for me it really is all about Buffy's happiness and fulfillment, though I really do care about Spike in and outside of the spuffy relationship.
 

katmobile

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My favorite one (i.e. the one I hate the most) is that Spuffy is only for fangirls of Spike because otherwise it doesn't make sense. It makes me very angry because they disregard all the arguments we try so hard to give as to why we like Spuffy. They treat us as airheads who are only attracted to Spike and have no capacity of being critical of his bad traits and of the toxic dynamics that Spuffy falls into at times (especially in S6). This argument comes over and over and over again and usually from the same people... in all honesty, it makes want to stop participating and giving my POV because it seems useless.
Oh absolutely except I refuse to let it stand unchallenged it's so condensending too and somewhat hypocritically usually comes from Bangel and Fuffy shippers who haven't got a leg to effing stand on.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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Besides the ones already mentioned, one that tends to grate me is the idea that Spike was this master manipulator that was constantly manipulating and gaslighting Buffy in S6, and similarly the idea that Buffy was incapable of making her own decisions and was this "pure" victim sullied by the dirty, disgusting soulless thing (there is the opposite side of the spectrum as well, but this is rarely an argument coming from anti-spuffy people, though I've seen that case as well).

  • I don't believe Spike truly manipulated Buffy in S6 because he actually believed what he told her to be true. He wasn't right and was kind of deluded about it, but it's what he believed, not something he used knowing full well it wasn't true. Buffy isolated herself from her friends, he mostly saw what she was doing and ran with it, but as he says in NA, he would've accepted either way. Don't get me wrong, he spirals out of control as Buffy starts moving away from him, but even then he never behaves as a moustache twirling, Machiavellian abuser.
  • Buffy being depressed does not mean her actions and choices aren't her own. She may feel powerless, but she has power, whether she wants it or not (which is kind of the whole point of Dead Things, and her whole arc overall). She was the instigator of most of their sexual encounter and was very much proactive in how and when they happened. She shocked a 120+ yo vampire with her rough sex, for christ' sake. She is not a virginal, helpless little girl. We finally get a female protagonist who is given a complexity and grey behavior usually reserved for male characters, and people want to make her a victim again (we had that with Angel, we don't need a repeat).
Both screwed up, both behaved badly due to their own issues, and both hurt the other as a result. But I don't believe either was ever intentionally inflicting pain because they wanted to see the other suffer. They did what unfortunately a lot of people do in relationships, which is to lash out when they're feeling powerless, hurt or insecure.
 
r2dh2
r2dh2
This... so... much. I ABSOLUTELY agree.

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
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Shipping is a matter of personal preference and it's unlikely any argument will carry weight in this matter.
 

Antho

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The one I have in mind is that Spike’s feeling came out from nowhere. While I don’t like how it is revealed to him : ( sorry but I find the scene at the end of 5x04 where he wake up from that dream sex with Buffy and was like « oh god no » cringey but it’s not a personal dislike toward that Spuffy scene, it’s a personal dislike to that concept of scene in general) I believe there are elements that prove that his feeling were there since some times. I wouldn’t say he loved her back to season 2 but there was attraction and from attraction to love there isn’t 100 kilometers 😂
 

Antho

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That's exactly why I say that Spuffy started in season 2. It's plain as day to me.
Attraction isn’t love. You can be attracted to someone and not being in love. There isn’t Spuffy « romantically speaking » in season 2. Also you need to be 2 to be in a relationship and neither of them were « romantically speaking » available because at that time they were both engaged and in love with Both Angel and Drusilla.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
Attraction isn’t love. You can be attracted to someone and not being in love. There isn’t Spuffy « romantically speaking » in season 2. Also you need to be 2 to be in a relationship and neither of them were « romantically speaking » available because at that time they were both engaged and in love with Both Angel and Drusilla.
The English barrier might be a problem. When I say Spuffy started in Season 2 my meaning was what would become Spuffy started in Season 2; not the "romance"
 

Antho

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The English barrier might be a problem. When I say Spuffy started in Season 2 my meaning was what would become Spuffy started in Season 2; not the "romance"
Okay but in my post that you quoted I was talking about the romance. I wanted to say that back in season 2 there was not love for me but there was attraction ( mostly physical not emotional). But yeah if I understand what you mean, Spuffy in a platonic way, theirs connections, started in season 2 ( which makes sense since they met in that season)
 

Spanky

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But yeah if I understand what you mean, Spuffy in a platonic way, theirs connections, started in season 2 ( which makes sense since they met in that season)
Not so much platonic but that's when he first was infatuated with her, and that infatuation only grew/grows.
 
Antho
Antho
That’s what happens when two people are in death/life situations 😀

GothicBuffy

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Besides the ones already mentioned, one that tends to grate me is the idea that Spike was this master manipulator that was constantly manipulating and gaslighting Buffy in S6, and similarly the idea that Buffy was incapable of making her own decisions and was this "pure" victim sullied by the dirty, disgusting soulless thing (there is the opposite side of the spectrum as well, but this is rarely an argument coming from anti-spuffy people, though I've seen that case as well).
Exactly!!! People saying Spike was a manipulator or that he took advantage of Buffys emotional state is so bizarre to me, because it implies that Spike himself was in an emotionally stable state, which he was not, not then and not before they started sleeping together. He had some of his own self worth issues and emotional instability that was a little bit being taken advantage of as well.
 

AstridDante

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Both Spike and Buffy had issues and were each vulnerable in different ways. He being soulless and madly in love and Buffy not feeling herself and depressed. They both got their share, each using the other for their sexual needs. The one thing standing in Spike’s favour is that while he took advantage, he also wanted an authentic relationship while Buffy wanted to keep it at sex.
 
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The one I have in mind is that Spike’s feeling came out from nowhere. While I don’t like how it is revealed to him : ( sorry but I find the scene at the end of 5x04 where he wake up from that dream sex with Buffy and was like « oh god no » cringey but it’s not a personal dislike toward that Spuffy scene, it’s a personal dislike to that concept of scene in general) I believe there are elements that prove that his feeling were there since some times. I wouldn’t say he loved her back to season 2 but there was attraction and from attraction to love there isn’t 100 kilometers 😂
I agree - it's not the greatest scene ever written - but you're right in that it's not of nowhere. I think the purpose of the scene is that he already has those feelings he just didn't realise it until the dream wakes him up to the fact. It's not saying 'one sexy dream and Spike is in love' it's saying 'Spike is in love and it is the sexy dream that makes him aware of it.'
 
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