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Arguments against Bangel that annoy you #2

EarthLogic

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Black Thorn
@Taaroko I haven't seen the 'Angel is whiny' argument so much but its variant, 'Angel broods too much and never has any fun' is quite common. To which I say - the man has 150 years of murder and torture to deal with so what do you effing expect?!

Also, good to see you popping by again :) It's been a while.
 
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DayDreamer27

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Oh oh! I think I thought of one we haven't done yet! (But my memory is garbage, so I could be wrong.)

"I like Spike better because Angel is so whiny."

I'm dead serious. If you dig back in this forum's archives far enough, you'll find me arguing with Spuffies who made this point. This is either the funniest or most frustrating argument I've ever seen them make, because it's so blatantly and quantifiably false. There are only a handful of moments where Angel complains about anything, because he is a freaking adult who is capable of recognizing when his problems are of his own making instead of just blaming everyone else. When he does complain, it's usually because he's been annoyed past his breaking point (by Spike, most often). The vast majority of the time, he bottles it up because he believes he deserves to suffer. Spike, on the other hand, whines constantly when things don't go his way (which is most of the time), and it's extremely unattractive. Especially considering how often he's whining about how the woman he's obsessed with (whether Buffy or Drusilla) isn't behaving the way he wants her to. Gross.

Did they mean they don't like that Angel is broody and struggles to forgive himself for things he had no control over? Do they just not want to sympathize with him for that and want him to get over it? If so, they could at least use the right words to describe it.
Spike also being spoiled & entitled. If it isn't what he wants to hear, he tunes it out. Buffy told hin from the start she was with him out of convenience, but he has the nerve to whine that she's been playing him. She never dressed up what they had. He saw it for what he wanted, and ranted when he doesn't get his way & Buffy treats him as the convenience she said he was. Then she starts trying to put herself bavk together, and find strength to stop her self destruction, and he hounds her about not sleeping eith hin again, then tries to rape her, leaving her in tears & scared of him.
 
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RomanticSoul

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Oh oh! I think I thought of one we haven't done yet! (But my memory is garbage, so I could be wrong.)

"I like Spike better because Angel is so whiny."
*giggles hysterically for 5 minutes*

Spike, the queen of Drama Queens makes anyone, not just Angel or even Angelus (who is a drama queen), look like non-whiners in comparison.

'Waa you damn b*tches, waa you damn wanker, waa you bloody chip, waa you stupid women...' *whine whine whine*

Some fans really live in their own little world that's so far removed from reality it isn't even funny.
 

Mrs Gordo

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@MrsEssmich - I'll address some of your comments from this post here.

As a preliminary matter, I am not here to try and convince you that you should feel any post s3 bangel vibes you do you, you can ship however you want to ship and if you just don't feel it post btvs s3 then that is totally valid. But I would like to address some of the issues you bring up and give you my perspective.

You said:
BUT the Cangel storyline slapped me in the face. It showed that he was kinda over her - he still had major feelings for her, but he was ready to give someone else a chance.

The Cangel story line slapped me in the face as well. And it continues to confound me. Mostly because it comes a bit out of no-where, lasts about a season and then disappears into the mist as if it never even happened. Here's what I know. Angel was in love with Buffy for over 100 years (counting hell time) he moved to LA and he was still in love with Buffy. In s2 he comes back in Forever and he obviously still very affected by her. In s3, after she has died he tells Cordy that in all that time no one ever mattered in his life like Buffy did, and then the tells James "the woman I love is dead." So if we are to believe Angel, in s3, he is still in love with Buffy. (Remember, "I love you, nothing can change that, not even death.") Then s3 wackiness begins, he rushes off to see Buffy off screen after her resurrection has to come back to LA, we don't know how that all went but we know he was bummed out, wanted ice cream (shout out to IWRY). Then Darla shows up pregnant and we get - Connor.

Connor becomes the center of Angel's universe - rightly so. Everything sorda shifts for him at that moment. To me, Connor's arrival and his interest in Cordelia is not coincidental. Especially not when Cordelia has had a brain transplant and she has magically been transformed into The Most Nurturing Caring and Mom-like 21 year old in the history of the world. To me, Cordelia was so clearly wrapped up, in Angel's mind with this idea that he could give Connor this Norman Rockwell perfect family that he envisioned. What we see in Deep Down. I'm not here to say that Angel had no feelings for Cordelia. I think he did. I think those feelings were deep and meaningful. But I attribute the feelings that Angel had to Cordelia as similar to those feelings that Buffy had for Riley.

Think of the parallels. Both of them are luke warm to them initially. Angel never showed an inkling of interest in Cordy (in this case for years). When she kisses him in Parting Gifts he looks super weirded out and not even remotely conflicted. Angel has to be talked into even realizing he might have feelings for Cordy by Fred (a girl that hardly knows him) and Lorne (who basically tells him this ridiculous story about how it's meant to be which is confusing to say the least when we see how canon plays out... but I digress). Anyway, then they are forced into a hot make out session by horny ghosts and THEN Angel decides ok well I guess maybe I like her. This is similar to how Buffy was kind of oblivious to Riley at first, didn't even realize that he was trying to flirt with her in the Initiative, talked to Willow about she realized Riley liked her but she felt there was something missing, and then proceeded to have to be talked into a relationship with Riley - by Riley himself. We all saw how that relationship turned out with Riley. Both Cordy and Riley were representative of ideas that Angel and Buffy wanted. Angel wanted a family and when he had a son he thought Cordy could fill the motherly role. Buffy wanted a normal life with a normal boy. At least Buffy and Riley got to have a relationship. Cordelia and Angel never made it that far. But both of these dynamics fail. Buffy is never able to tell Riley that she loves him. Angel is never able to tell Cordelia that he loves her. And he has so many opportunities in his hallucination in Deep Down when he hallucinated her telling him I Love You and he responded with I Need you, in Spin the Bottle, when she asked him if they were in love he says "I don't know.", in Awakening when he was (once again in a hallucination) when they are having sex he never says it, (and then calls out Buffy's name), and finally when he goes to kill her in Inside Out, he walks up to Cordy says "I'm so sorry" then moves to kill her.

I don't think Buffy and Riley's relationship diminishes what she has with Angel. I don't think Cordelia and Angel's almost relationship diminishes what he has with Buffy. What we know is that when it was all said and done, Angel goes back to Buffy in Home, he is jealous of her and Spike, he goes all the way to Italy for her, says he is waiting for her to be cookies, and calls what they have a "forever love." And while I don't consider comics, strictly canon since it seems that you do, I'd direct you to s8, where Angel says that they have never been able to be happy with anyone else, s9, when he tells Spike he still isn't over Buffy, and s10 when he is jealous of her and Spike's relationship and tells Willow he hopes it fails. In the almost 13 years of canon Angel stories we have had in the 'verse only, with the exception of one season (mid s3 to mid s4) Angel is shown to be very much in love with Buffy. As DB says:

“I really believe that Angel’s heart is with Buffy. I’ve always found the Angel-Cordelia relationship a bit strange, but it worked. There was chemistry there, but not the way it was between Angel and Buffy. I think the Angel-Cordy relationship was just a mirror to what the Angel-Buffy relationship was to him.“ (x) Angel Magazine

You said:
And Buffy on the other hand is madly in love with ensouled Spike in the comics and I count those as canon since Joss got his hands in them.
when she is soooo effin happy with Spike that she'd even chooses him over Angel.

Well, I'm not sure if you are caught up in comic canon so I'll mark this as spoilers?

As a preliminary matter, Buffy and Spike broke up. And, she seems perfectly fine with the decision. They seem to getting alone well and are working together. I gotta tell you I may just have A VERY different read on the comics than you but I never got the impression that Buffy was "madly in love" with Spike. Let's see in s9 she calls him stalky the clown and is pretty dismissive of him. In s10 she does about everything she can to find others to date, even goes and does speed dating and it isn't until other characters tell her how "silly" she is being for not being with Spike that she decides to give it a go. Now I'll concede that in later half of 10 and 11 they seem very much in love and she even finally gets around to telling him ILY. (only took like 7 seasons!)

But one thing is very clear - she has never chosen Angel over Spike. In s8, she chose the world over Angel (that isn't new she did that in s2). But at no point since the twilight fiasco has Angel ever come back to Buffy and said "hey you know what I really want to give us a chance." Plus he is still cursed and the last time they had god sex (ughhhhhhhhhhh I can't believe this is a thing) they almost ended the world - AGAIN. So Buffy has never been afforded the opportunity to be with Angel. Time and time again she has give him up and settle for something else.

You said:
Now I see those references post btsv4/ats1 as a farce to pull Bangel fans off, to keep the hope up, to stay put that they eventually will find each other again. I am not saying the B/A action is non-existent, but to me most of it happened to retain viewers

I guess ultimately, if any of the references either on the show or in the comics are "a farce to pull Bangel fans" in.... I don't really care. If it's in the show it's canon. If it's in the comic its... well... comic canon. I mean you could argue that a great many things on the show were done for various Doylist reasons. For example, network execs wanted a love interest for Angel and thus Cangel was born, some B/A fans have argued that Spuffy in the comics was borne out of the backlash to his being absent from s8 and the bangely parts of 8. Spike was supposed to be killed off early on but fans responded to him, and that may have influenced keeping him on. SMG was supposed to appear in YW but wasn't able to and thus Cordy was brought in to get Angel back on track - you got the quintessential Cangel episode as a result. etc etc. To me, you deal with the source material that you get because that is the story. And if B/A fans somehow influenced any writing decisions - well then tough cookies Helen - it's still canon. :)

Anyway just some of my thoughts.
 
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MrsEssmich

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@Mrs Gordo

At first I was like "ohOh... she shifted this to the annoyed-thread, she is gonna rip me apart" :eek::D
But then I really enjoyed reading your post. As I wrote, I wrestled whether I should comment on your post in the 30-days thread or not. Because I know that my opinions differ very often to other opinions. And that's why I mostly keep my mouth shut when I disagree, because there are a lot of people who disrespect that there are more than one opinions and that there are more nuances of a certain color so to speak. I am more like "I got my opinion, you got your's. That's totally fine. I don't want to convince you about my thinking and I don't expect you trying to convince me either." BUT I do appreciate different opinions very much - especially when they make sense. And yours made totally sense.

It is just that Cangel and Spuffy (post re-ensoulment) are way out of character for me and this disturbs me so much in relation to the Bangel-storyline, that I find most of the references post bs4/ats1 as a put-on. I value them, because they show respect for the other show, but I just don't get the Bangel-vipe I used to have in S1-4. You are right, Angel loved Buffy throughout Cangel and the comics, but I can't get over it that he loved Buffy over 100+ years (including hell dimension) and then he falls apart and gets persuaded by his friends to give Cordelia a chance. > Huh? I thought he was wiser than that. But obviously I got a false picture of him, that was established within the first 4 seasons... :rolleyes: < Mixing up friendship and romance can lead to bad things. And that led me to my sentence that Angel was kinda over Buffy.

Btw I have a problem with the dream sequence of Angel and Cordelia. When I watched the show, I didn't have internet or sth.. When I heard him say "Buffy", I interpreted he remembered the last time he lost his soul and not that there is only Buffy who can give him true happiness. Like "Oh S*** the last time I felt this way was with Buffy, hence my soul will be gone with the wind any minute". Of course later I got to know about the meaning of the scene and I was like "mhm... still don't see it that way".

Plus I am not talking about Riley, soulless Spike, Darla or Nina, because I was fine with them. Meaning I don't decline other partners for them.

Oh, and thanks for filling me in in the current Spuffy status in the comics (thumps up). I didn't know that. As a matter of fact I stopped reading after Giles came back as a kid. That was too wacky for my taste. But Idk, I kind of don't care anymore if Buffy and Angel will reunite at some point in the future. The arc of suspense is overstretched for me - adding up to the "I don't get the vipe post bs4/ats1".

However I am still and always will be a major Bangel-shipper and there is no couple in TV-history who measures up to them for me.

And PLEASE excuse my horrific spelling, but I am that arrogant to say that you get the meaning of my sentences.
Now let's go over to "30 Days of Bangel"- I still have to chose day 16 :D
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
I'm with you on the OOC-ness of Cangel and the wackiness of the comics for sure!
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BaskingINBangel

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Where do I start?

Bangel is a high school puppy love. (Maybe, just maybe, I can agree with this for season 1, after season 1, no, just no.)

Spike loved Buffy without a soul, Angel didn't. (Eyeroll)

Angel never really loved Buffy. (Yep, I've actually seen this one more than once.)

Spike stayed and worked through their problems, Angel didn't. (I wasn't aware of Buffy and Angel having any problems to work through? Angel has a curse.....Spike doesn't.)

Angel is a pedophile that groomed Buffy. (Big time eyeroll on this one.)

Spike chose to get a soul for Buffy, Angel was cursed with one.

I could go on and on.....
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Ahh yes the classics...

DeadlyDuo

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Spike chose to get a soul for Buffy, Angel was cursed with one.

I actually don't count this as one in Spuffy's favour. They gypsies gave Angelus a soul because they wanted to PUNISH him and make him SUFFER. They gave him a soul out of VENGEANCE, not to make him a "better man". Therefore a soul = bad things for vampires.

Angel couldn't do anything about his predicament, it was forced on him against his will, yet Spike willingly inflicts that suffering and torment on himself (which sent him insane for a while) all so that he would be more "acceptable" to Buffy.

Angel made the best out of a bad situation which he had no control over, Spike essentially self-harmed/committed suicide (depending on whether you consider souled Spike different from unsouled Spike) all so that Buffy would like him more (even though he had no problem being soulless. It only became a problem because of HER).

Remind me, which ship should we be rooting for again?
 

thetopher

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Some anti-Bangel arguments from fan-fiction that annoy me:

- Angel 'raped Buffy's mind' and 'stole away her happiness' in 'IWRY': This...is not what happened. The day was taken back, erased from existence, for everyone in the world except Angel. The Oracles did this, it was their solution and Angel did it not because of shallow reasons (he couldn't cope with being a mere human or whatever) but because he was told that remaining mortal would eventually cost Buffy her life. Angel was very much enjoying the mortal stuff; sunlight, tasting food, kissing Buffy, having tea with Buffy, the marathon boink-athon with Buffy and added ice-cream, etc.
Angel obviously wanted to prolong it for as long as he could so he forgoes the easy option, its part of why he left Sunnydale in the first place. He wanted Buffy's life to be better, and also longer.

- Spike loves Buffy just fine without a soul, Angel is a horrible irredeemable demon without a soul. Ergo Spike is better: Well, I agree with the middle bit, but its hard to say what Angelus would've been 'programmed' into with a chip in his head. Spike without a chip was every bit of a monster as Angelus, just different. He was a cocky, brutal misogynist who stalker and murdered slayers for fun, he was 'a veal kind of guy' and preferred his victims young. He had a spectacular body-count by BtVS S2. Just because the writers chose to humanize him for comic effect (to a lesser extent than they did Harmony but still) does not change the fact that pre-chip Spike was very brutal and dangerous, and post-chip he was still pretty darn unpleasant & evil.

I've read so much romanticized crap about pre-soul Spike and re-writing S6 which basically amounts to 'If only Buffy just loved Spike then everything would've been fine!' It's like the most traumatic experience of her- fairly traumatic- life never actually happened. The abuse, the near psychological destruction of Buffy's self during their relationship. Also Spike tried to rape Buffy. Because he was in love with her and wanted her 'to feel it'. It's all right there in the scene people.
Spike was not 'better', he was just different and hurt her in a different way.

- Buffy never really knew Angel, Cordelia did.: Whilst you could argue that their is a...glimmer of a point here the bringing up of Cordelia kinda demolishes it. First off Buffy knew Angelus, fought him, suffered his wrath, and triumphed anyway but Cordelia was always ignorant and on the periphery ('he can get into my car!'). Plus Angelus barely ever knew Cordelia existed or even acknowledged her as a way to hurt Angel.
Buffy knew Angelus's crimes because 1) He told her about 'em during that time when Cordelia didn't even realize Angel WAS a vampire and 2) She was in his dreams and saw his horrible 'tashe/facial thing actions in 'Amends'. Buffy saw them and accepted them and worked through the trauma and found it within herself to fight for Angel because she knew and understood the difference. When Cordelia/Jasmine 'saw' them she couldn't handle it and distanced herself from Angel. Real nice.
Buffy and Angel tended to have more deep and meaningful discussions when alone whereas Angel and Cordelia talked about...work? Connor? Certainly not each other or Angel's past.
Plus I don't think Buffy projected things onto Angel half as much as Cordy did. Whilst Buffy's feelings were always clouded by her own insecurities (in contrast Cordelia has few of those) at the end of the day she knew and accepted all the different parts of Angel.

This has all been triggered because I've sorta been on a fan-fic hunt trying to find authors of ships I don't understand in a effort to make myself a more rounded fic writer when it comes to referencing back to them (specifically Spuffy/Cangel), but jeez there is some dross out there. :p
 
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
I love not shipping stuff, it's so much fun to sit back and watch the drama unfold...
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Hit me up for fic recommendations if you need them for b/a. I can find you some fairly balanced reads!

spikenbuffy

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That Angel is a pedophile, I mean, at 16 years old, Buffy is not a child and she was the one who seemed to go for him & asking him for a date in reptile Boy even when he told her that it's not fairytail.
 
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BaskingINBangel

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I actually don't count this as one in Spuffy's favour. They gypsies gave Angelus a soul because they wanted to PUNISH him and make him SUFFER. They gave him a soul out of VENGEANCE, not to make him a "better man". Therefore a soul = bad things for vampires.

Angel couldn't do anything about his predicament, it was forced on him against his will, yet Spike willingly inflicts that suffering and torment on himself (which sent him insane for a while) all so that he would be more "acceptable" to Buffy.

Angel made the best out of a bad situation which he had no control over, Spike essentially self-harmed/committed suicide (depending on whether you consider souled Spike different from unsouled Spike) all so that Buffy would like him more (even though he had no problem being soulless. It only became a problem because of HER).

Remind me, which ship should we be rooting for again?
I don't either, but I see it repeatedly being used against Bangel.

Some anti-Bangel arguments from fan-fiction that annoy me:

- Angel 'raped Buffy's mind' and 'stole away her happiness' in 'IWRY': This...is not what happened. The day was taken back, erased from existence, for everyone in the world except Angel. The Oracles did this, it was their solution and Angel did it not because of shallow reasons (he couldn't cope with being a mere human or whatever) but because he was told that remaining mortal would eventually cost Buffy her life. Angel was very much enjoying the mortal stuff; sunlight, tasting food, kissing Buffy, having tea with Buffy, the marathon boink-athon with Buffy and added ice-cream, etc.
Angel obviously wanted to prolong it for as long as he could so he forgoes the easy option, its part of why he left Sunnydale in the first place. He wanted Buffy's life to be better, and also longer.

- Spike loves Buffy just fine without a soul, Angel is a horrible irredeemable demon without a soul. Ergo Spike is better: Well, I agree with the middle bit, but its hard to say what Angelus would've been 'programmed' into with a chip in his head. Spike without a chip was every bit of a monster as Angelus, just different. He was a cocky, brutal misogynist who stalker and murdered slayers for fun, he was 'a veal kind of guy' and preferred his victims young. He had a spectacular body-count by BtVS S2. Just because the writers chose to humanize him for comic effect (to a lesser extent than they did Harmony but still) does not change the fact that pre-chip Spike was very brutal and dangerous, and post-chip he was still pretty darn unpleasant & evil.

I've read so much romanticized crap about pre-soul Spike and re-writing S6 which basically amounts to 'If only Buffy just loved Spike then everything would've been fine!' It's like the most traumatic experience of her- fairly traumatic- life never actually happened. The abuse, the near psychological destruction of Buffy's self during their relationship. Also Spike tried to rape Buffy. Because he was in love with her and wanted her 'to feel it'. It's all right there in the scene people.
Spike was not 'better', he was just different and hurt her in a different way.

- Buffy never really knew Angel, Cordelia did.: Whilst you could argue that their is a...glimmer of a point here the bringing up of Cordelia kinda demolishes it. First off Buffy knew Angelus, fought him, suffered his wrath, and triumphed anyway but Cordelia was always ignorant and on the periphery ('he can get into my car!'). Plus Angelus barely ever knew Cordelia existed or even acknowledged her as a way to hurt Angel.
Buffy knew Angelus's crimes because 1) He told her about 'em during that time when Cordelia didn't even realize Angel WAS a vampire and 2) She was in his dreams and saw his horrible 'tashe/facial thing actions in 'Amends'. Buffy saw them and accepted them and worked through the trauma and found it within herself to fight for Angel because she knew and understood the difference. When Cordelia/Jasmine 'saw' them she couldn't handle it and distanced herself from Angel. Real nice.
Buffy and Angel tended to have more deep and meaningful discussions when alone whereas Angel and Cordelia talked about...work? Connor? Certainly not each other or Angel's past.
Plus I don't think Buffy projected things onto Angel half as much as Cordy did. Whilst Buffy's feelings were always clouded by her own insecurities (in contrast Cordelia has few of those) at the end of the day she knew and accepted all the different parts of Angel.

This has all been triggered because I've sorta been on a fan-fic hunt trying to find authors of ships I don't understand in a effort to make myself a more rounded fic writer when it comes to referencing back to them (specifically Spuffy/Cangel), but jeez there is some dross out there. :p
I agree with you on all of these.

That Angel is a pedophile, I mean, at 16 years old, Buffy is not a child and she was the one who seemed to go for him & asking him for a date in reptile Boy even when he told her that it's not fairytail.
This one really annoys me. In fact there is a discussion going on about it right now on Facebook in a Buffy group, that I just had to comment on. I'm regretting that decision right now. 😬
 
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Angel is a pedophile that groomed Buffy. (Big time eyeroll on this one.)
This is literally the weakest excuse to me, it's so laughable. I think the biggest problem is that he is a 240+ year old vampire, not that he was 26 when he died.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
And yet this is by far the most prevalent attack waged at this ship. By far it gets the most milage.

FaithLehane16

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Angel is a creepy pedophile when Spike is no better.
 
Puppet
Puppet
lol except Buffy was an adult when Spike started pursuing her :D
thetopher
thetopher
But Spike was lusting after her in S2 when she was 16, so...

Miss Muffet

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I know for a fact someone already said this, but the argument "Spike loved Buffy with and without a soul, Angel only loved her with one" is really on my nerves right now.
Just... How can you... UGH!!!
 

Faded90

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I don’t know if this counts as an argument against Bangel but I’ve noticed when Cangel gets talked up rather than the positives of Cangel being discussed it tends to be discussed in a ‘better than Bangel’ way. ‘Cordy makes him smile more than Buffy’ ‘Cangel is more mature than Bangel’. There’s the ‘imagine Buffy’s face!’ I feel like in Bangel Buffy is seemingly regarded as being this jealous, bitter ex when she really isn’t. The only time you could say she was is Sanctuary (and even then she had some VERY valid reasons for being so angry that had nothing to do with being ‘bitter ex’) Buffy is almost treat and discussed as the bad guy at times. Like she’s a silly girl who was holding Angel back when she never did. Buffy from the ending of Sanctuary never gets involved in his life, doesn’t meddle in any of his personal business and there’s still this ‘imagine her face!’ argument which I find bizarre. Like she’s the bitter ex who refuses to move on, when actually she has moved on. Multiple times.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I don’t know if this counts as an argument against Bangel but I’ve noticed when Cangel gets talked up rather than the positives of Cangel being discussed it tends to be discussed in a ‘better than Bangel’ way. ‘Cordy makes him smile more than Buffy’ ‘Cangel is more mature than Bangel’. There’s the ‘imagine Buffy’s face!’ I feel like in Bangel Buffy is seemingly regarded as being this jealous, bitter ex when she really isn’t. The only time you could say she was is Sanctuary (and even then she had some VERY valid reasons for being so angry that had nothing to do with being ‘bitter ex’) Buffy is almost treat and discussed as the bad guy at times. Like she’s a silly girl who was holding Angel back when she never did. Buffy from the ending of Sanctuary never gets involved in his life, doesn’t meddle in any of his personal business and there’s still this ‘imagine her face!’ argument which I find bizarre. Like she’s the bitter ex who refuses to move on, when actually she has moved on. Multiple times.

Cordelia dyed her hair blonde before she started a relationship with Angel, and he called out Buffy's name when he was kissing/having sex with her. Cangel basically makes Cordy be happy at being second best to Buffy, something pre-Cangel Cordelia would never have put up with.
 
r2dh2
r2dh2
wait, when did he call out Buffy's name? I don't remember.

r2dh2

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I don’t know if this counts as an argument against Bangel but I’ve noticed when Cangel gets talked up rather than the positives of Cangel being discussed it tends to be discussed in a ‘better than Bangel’ way. ‘Cordy makes him smile more than Buffy’ ‘Cangel is more mature than Bangel’. There’s the ‘imagine Buffy’s face!’ I feel like in Bangel Buffy is seemingly regarded as being this jealous, bitter ex when she really isn’t. The only time you could say she was is Sanctuary (and even then she had some VERY valid reasons for being so angry that had nothing to do with being ‘bitter ex’) Buffy is almost treat and discussed as the bad guy at times. Like she’s a silly girl who was holding Angel back when she never did. Buffy from the ending of Sanctuary never gets involved in his life, doesn’t meddle in any of his personal business and there’s still this ‘imagine her face!’ argument which I find bizarre. Like she’s the bitter ex who refuses to move on, when actually she has moved on. Multiple times.

But of course we compare. Relationships don’t start and end in a vacuum. Some people are better matches for us than others. The comparison might not be explicit but it always happens nonetheless. Why do relationships end? Because there was incompatibility of goals, values, personalities, level of maturity, etc. We end them because we expect to meet somebody else that would be better suited for us.

I think that most of us would like to think of relationships merely from a romantic point of view, but love is not enough, there must alignment in different dimensions and willingness to compromise. And as we grow and have more experience, we start learning what we want, what we like, what we can live with or without, etc. That’s why Buffy was cookie dough, she was still learning and figuring out who she was and where she was going. That’s why she didn’t go back to Angel and didn’t compromise with Spike at the end of S7. She realized that she was still young and that there were many other things that she needed to learn about herself.

Now, as I said above, the comparison can happen in the abstract (there’s somebody else better suited for me) or can be explicit (my ex-boyfriend and I had incompatible personalities, this new person I am dating is better suited for me). But I agree that many of us have this romantic idea of judging a relationship on its own, but that’s not how we really do it in practice, we all have a benchmark (either learnt or somehow formed from the world around us).
 

Bop

Scooby
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Sineya
I don’t know if this counts as an argument against Bangel but I’ve noticed when Cangel gets talked up rather than the positives of Cangel being discussed it tends to be discussed in a ‘better than Bangel’ way. ‘Cordy makes him smile more than Buffy’ ‘Cangel is more mature than Bangel’. There’s the ‘imagine Buffy’s face!’ I feel like in Bangel Buffy is seemingly regarded as being this jealous, bitter ex when she really isn’t. The only time you could say she was is Sanctuary (and even then she had some VERY valid reasons for being so angry that had nothing to do with being ‘bitter ex’) Buffy is almost treat and discussed as the bad guy at times. Like she’s a silly girl who was holding Angel back when she never did. Buffy from the ending of Sanctuary never gets involved in his life, doesn’t meddle in any of his personal business and there’s still this ‘imagine her face!’ argument which I find bizarre. Like she’s the bitter ex who refuses to move on, when actually she has moved on. Multiple times.

I think it’s the fact that breaking up with Angel was never Buffy’s choice or what Buffy wanted and that definitely shows. I’d say up until season 5 Buffy never moved on because there’s a feeling that if it worked for Angel (which it never could) she’d choose to be with him again. So while she dated other people I never felt she moved on. And after season 5 it’s just the fact that Buffy’s been through so much that she doesn’t have the same wants anymore.
 

Ann

Nee chatwuann Bangel
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Cordelia dyed her hair blonde before she started a relationship with Angel, and he called out Buffy's name when he was kissing/having sex with her. Cangel basically makes Cordy be happy at being second best to Buffy, something pre-Cangel Cordelia would never have put up with.
All true. Cordelia had to be changed so she would find being in that position acceptable.
 
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