I wasn't arguing that Judy had to be morally "pure." Judy has stolen money and is on the run, but the moment she turns on Angel is shocking because we're on her side even with her less-than-saint-like behavior. It's very hard for me to believe in that moment, the audience's sympathy isn't largely with Angel instead of Judy. And, c'mon, we get one portrayal (that I remember) of a lynch mob in the Buffyverse and it's a white guy lynched because a mixed-race woman lied?As for Judy not being morally pure with the stealing and the back-stabbing... I think it is pretty easy to sympathise with her, because her situation is so difficult. I read quite a few books by black writers this year - Nella Larsson's Passing being a favourite - and one thing that is refreshing about black writers tackling issues of race is that black writers do not tend to make their black characters into saints. If you want to explore racism as a mechanism in society, you need to really look at how deeply it affects people. Passing is a pretty extreme practice, and the fact that many people would take the trouble and the risk to do that is pretty significant and says a lot about how dire the situation can be for people of colour. Angel isn't all that heroic himself. In fact, James Dean Angel is quite unlikable and not much like James Dean or Angel at all.
No, I do agree with everything you said, I just still really like the episode. My attitude is that I would rather be offended than bored. I find the other two episodes I mentioned much more problematic, but worse than that, they're just really bad and have very little to say, I find.Sorry, I know my thoughts on this episode are not popular or widely shared (or maybe not shared at all).
Yeah, actually, Are You Now or Have You Ever Been is kind of fascinating for me as a time capsule of the '90s views on the '50s. And it's a good reminder that no matter how much more enlightened we feel than a previous era, we still have our own blind spots.No, I do agree with everything you said, I just still really like the episode. My attitude is that I would rather be offended than bored. I find the other two episodes I mentioned much more problematic, but worse than that, they're just really bad and have very little to say, I find.
yes... muahaha... join us! (I know you just said this episode...)In this episode, I think I might like them even more than Buffy/Willow/Xander, which is incredible to me and nothing I ever thought I'd say.
I agree. I love her in Jane the Virgin. And she is a delight in this episode. Her and DB have a nice little banter chemistry situation going. I really dig it.Justina Machado is such a great guest star, omg. She's so instantly likable and believable in this role to me
My landlady keeps saying, "you
better not be running a business
up there, I hear a lot of noise"
and I keep telling her, "no
business, just wild orgies . . ."
I'll get us a new office, I just
haven't had the --
Hello Darla, how are you doing today?
I thought this script note was funny. People give DB so much sh*t for breathing hard when he acts but this is literally in his script and HE ISN'T SUPPOSE TO BREATHE! LOLDARLA turns. She looks a lot better then when we last saw her in the box, but she's pretty jumpy and wigged, what with being brought back from hell and all.
This whole scene is cut after Angel wins the Trial and before they go back to Cordy's it's just a little trip back to Lorne's that didn't make the episode:Angel leans against the wall, breathing hard.
Well that about wraps it up . . .!
INT. KARAOKE BAR - NIGHT
The Host is on stage, mic in hand. It's closing time.
Boy, we've really been over the
rainbow tonight - God bless you,
Judy - and I think we've learned
a little something to boot. I know
I did when Ingmar of Sumatra told
us all to stop in the name of
love. So drive safely, everyone,
and keep your chins up, cause
there's always something new
around the next corner. It might
be a pus-beast lookin' to strangle
you with your own intestines - or
it just might be a rainbow. See you soon.
APPLAUSE. SPOTLIGHT GOES DARK.
EXT. L.A. - STOCK SHOTS - NIGHT TO DAY TRANSITION
The Host's singing continues over.
I have taken issue with this on previous re-watches. I think the bottom line is Angel knows that Judy has lived with this guilt on her shoulders for all of these years. He seems to recognize that she is dying, so I think the point of this is to give her forgiveness so she can go in peace. His guilt, is his alone, and his to bear. He may not even think he is worthy of forgiveness for what he did. But either way, it's not something he wants to burden her with. I'm not sure if that is right or wrong. But maybe he is giving her what he would like to have before he dies. Forgiveness.I didn't like how it was only about Angel forgiving Judy, after the episode showed that Angel also regretted his actions. Given that the demon's influence was a factor (and Angel actually knew that at the time), it felt like there should be more give and take, though I guess Judy never knew what Angel did.
I honestly never thought of it this way and you are right in that it's not a good look. I have so much sympathy for Judy's character throughout the episode that I never stopped to consider that what she did was anything other than an act of pure desperation. But looking at it from this point of view, it's not a good look.So her employers fired her because they thought being of mixed race made her untrustworthy and now she proves (under the influence of the demon) to be untrustworthy? I don't know, it just feels awkward to me to use this real-life issue to make Angel's plight seem deeper metaphorically but then also kind of play into the stereotype?
This whole sequence was cut:as the door to room 217 opens. A hand reaches down and picks up the tray. We follow it up to a face --
No light in that face. He's 1950's I-don't-get-involved-guy Angel. And frankly, he is kinda creepy. And as he slams the door into frame, shutting out us and the world --
INT. CORDELIA'S APARTMENT - DAY
So what horrible thing do you suppose he did?
Wesley is using Cordy's dining room table to lay out a flow chart/time line of the incidents at the hotel from the 1930s to the present day. He's got archival material wherever possible: news clippings, photos, etc. He adds a clipping to 1935: "Hothouse Killer Claims Fifth Victim."
WESLEY Other than using the heads of his victims as decorative planters?
CORDELIA What? No, not psycho slasher 1935. Angel. I mean, he woulda had a soul back then, right? So he probably wasn't eating people. So what's with the big guilt? He forget to tip the doorman?
WESLEY You must keep in mind that this was during a period in Angel's life when he wasn't Angel. At least not the Angel we know.
CORDELIA You mean before Buffy. Before all his trying to atone.
WESLEY Precisely. She ponders for a moment, then --
CORDELIA So what kind of plants you gonna keep in a human head?
WESLEY Well, ferns, one assumes.
CORDELIA (musing) I bet it was a woman.
Wesley carefully finishes the 1935 slot...
WESLEY Just because the killer had a green thumb? I hardly think so. A man can enjoy botany as much as any woman. It certainly doesn't mean he's gay, and you weren't talking about that, were you?
CORDELIA The thing Angel's trying to snag some retroactive atonement for -- I'll bet it was a woman.
First impressionsThe moment between Judy and Angel at the end destroys me. My heart breaks for Judy. She has lived literally trapped by fear and guilt. It's a terrifying thought. And the part that I love is:
JUDY You look... the same.
ANGEL I'm not.
Oh, I didn't think about that at all. That's a great point.
- Great point made by a commenter on another site: "I think it’s very telling here that Angel says he has no family in LA, when in Season 1, he says that he is Cordelia and Wesley’s family. This shows that Darla is already getting to him."