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Beer Bad Bad Rep

DeadlyDuo

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So your arguments are now "but what about Xander...?", "but what about Cordy...?", "but what about Buffy...?" At least we've moved past pretending this guy isn't a jerk, I guess.
The point is we see ONE interaction between the guy and Xander and you're writing him off as an "absolute douchebag" despite the fact that we see him and his friends being genuinely nice to Buffy without expecting anything in return. We never see the guy again after this episode.

We see Xander and Cordy being unpleasant to both each other and other people on several occasions, yet because we also see them being nice and in a lot more episodes, we don't judge them on their negative actions. That's a little double standards.

Isn't it possible that the guy just takes issue with Xander and is targeting any potential weak points rather than having a general dislike of people in the service industry? We see him being mean to one person, we see him being nice to another, that is not enough to judge what sort of person he is as a whole.

Also my original post was about liking the fact that the college guys are genuinely trying to cheer Buffy up rather than trying to get her drunk enough so she'd sleep with them. I consider that a positive of the episode. You're the one that seemed to take umbrage to that statement which is what kickstarted this argument off.

Buffy said that Spike is "beneath her" because he's a soulless, murderous vampire who just boasted about how he's going to "have a real good day" and kill her one day (after earlier admitting to how he sexually "got off" on murdering another Slayer). It had nothing to do about his occupation or social class and everything to do with his morality (or lack-thereof). You're reaching.
Buffy seems quite happy to let Spike be part of the team. She's happy to have him protect her mother and sister despite him being "a soulless, murderous vampire who just boasted about how he's going to "have a real good day" and kill her one day (after earlier admitting to how he sexually "got off" on murdering another Slayer). It had nothing to do about his occupation or social class and everything to do with his morality (or lack-thereof)." She's happy to have him risk his life alongside the rest of the scoobies, he's good enough for all that, but dating him, what an unthinkable concept!

Buffy has every right to reject Spike on grounds that they have a very different moral outlook. HOWEVER, to use the words "you're beneath me" which pointedly (though unknowingly) echoes Cecily's words is distinctly diminishing another person's sense of self-worth, making them feel like they're not good enough or "worthy" of someone's time.

The whole "but what about Xander...?", "but what about Cordy...?", "but what about Buffy...?" as you so put it isn't going off on a tangent, it's related back to the guy's behaviour in this episode. Why are you writing him off as an "absolute douchebag" based on one interaction, yet giving a free pass to the other characters who also demonstrate such behaviour?
 

vampmogs

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The point is we see ONE interaction between the guy and Xander and you're writing him off as an "absolute douchebag" despite the fact that we see him and his friends being genuinely nice to Buffy without expecting anything in return. We never see the guy again after this episode.
We're going around in circles. The guy is rude to Xander BECAUSE he's a barman and not a college student like them. He is nice to Buffy who IS a college student like them. Therefore do you not see how flawed that argument is? You keep using the fact that he's nice to other COLLEGE STUDENTS as proof that he's not always a jerk to NON-COLLEGE STUDENTS despite the fact that the guy EXPLICITLY ADMITS to judging non-college students as being beneath him and worthless to the future of his country!?

Like, I'm not making this up. The guy ADMITS to thinking about people this way. He tells Xander he considers him beneath them and that he's worthless. And yet, you're adamant that he's probably a nice guy in spite of the fact that he's explicitly admitting that he's NOT a nice guy and he's proud of it.

Isn't it possible that the guy just takes issue with Xander and is targeting any potential weak points rather than having a general dislike of people in the service industry?
Again, what possible reason does he have to "take issue" with Xander other than the fact that he's a barman and had the audacity to be talking to a college girl who this guy deems "above" him? Xander hadn't done anything to him. Do people just randomly take issue with strangers for absolutely no reason?

Nevertheless, how you choose to insult someone is a reflection on you. As I've said above, there's been times where I've been unhappy with a waiter/barman and the service that they've provided. But I would never demean them or publicly humiliate them for having that profession. Why? Because I don't see anything wrong with someone having that profession so I would never think of using it as an insult. The only reason you'd use it as an insult against someone is if you held those views in the first place otherwise those kinds of comments would never even enter your head?

It's the same way people make racist comments to upset a POC but then turn around and claim they're not really racist and that person just upset them. NO. If your go to insult is to make a racist comment then, guess what, you're a racist! Because non-racist people would never even dream of making racist remarks against someone that upset them because they don't have those kinds of thoughts in their head.

This guy chose to demean Xander about this occupation because this guy considers being a barman demeaning. He ADMITS to that so I'm not sure how you can even argue otherwise. He's an elitist/classist and has no problem being open about it.

And as I have said already - I will not discuss other characters.
 
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DeadlyDuo

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We're going around in circles. The guy is rude to Xander BECAUSE he's a barman and not a college student like them. He is nice to Buffy who IS a college student like them. Do you not see how flawed that argument is? You keep using the fact that he's nice to other COLLEGE STUDENTS as proof that he's not always a jerk to NON-COLLEGE STUDENTS despite the fact that the guy EXPLICITLY ADMITS to judging non-college students as being beneath him and worthless to the future of his country!?
Where does he "explicitly admit" to judging non-college students as being beneath him? Where does he say that? Because his exact words are "Now given YOUR sociological statuses. I foresee a B rejects A dyad. I'm sorry, lemme clarify. You see, we are the future of this country and YOU keep our bowl of peanuts full. We are what these girls want."

The guy is being a jerk to Xander, but he's being a jerk to XANDER, not barmen as a whole. In fact later the guy is waxing lyrical about how great beer is. As servers of beer, bar staff would be seen as doing a great service to humanity for providing beer. You piss off the providers of beer then you get no beer.

Also your basis that he's a jerk to non-college students is based on a pool of one, that's hardly fool-proof evidence.

Like, I'm not making this up. The guy ADMITS to thinking about people this way. He tells Xander he considers him beneath them and that he's worthless.
Again, he's being a jerk to XANDER. He's not saying "Barmen keep our bowl of peanuts full" he's saying "YOU keep our bowl of peanuts full".

And yet, you're adamant that he's probably a nice guy in spite of the fact that he's explicitly admitting that he's NOT a nice guy and he's proud of it.
Where? Where does he confess and "explicitly admit" that he's not a nice guy and he's proud of it?

Again, what possible reason does he have to "take issue" with Xander other than the fact that he's a barman and had the audacity to be talking to a college girl who this guy deems "above" him? Xander hadn't done anything to him. Do people just randomly take issue with strangers for absolutely no reason?
I interpret the line "Hey Paula. You keeping this fine bartender from his duty? A man's gotta make a living" as a subtle hint that maybe Xander should concentrate on doing his actual job rather than stopping to hit on women. When Xander is talking to Buffy, the bar owner is telling him to get back to work, and in the scene prior we see Xander struggling to keep up with everybody's order and some of the customers getting annoyed. Xander's bar "experience" is that he's seen the movie Cocktail. He lied to get the job, so he probably lied about his level of experience too which means that everybody expects him to know what he's doing when he clearly has no clue.

This guy chose to demean Xander about this occupation because this guy considers being a barman demeaning. He ADMITS to that so I'm not sure how you can even argue otherwise. He's an elitist/classist and has no problem being open about it.
Again, the guy uses the word "you" in regards to Xander, not "barmen". He's being a jerk to Xander specifically, not bartenders as a whole. Also, it should be noted that certain professions are looked down upon by others, prostitution being one, the fast food industry being another. Buffy having to work at Doublemeat Palace is very much seen as a rock bottom for her.

Xander is in a customer service industry and customers expect a decent service. Given how often Xander switched jobs in Season 4, it's possible the guy could tell he wasn't going to be there long (possibly by the crappy service). The majority of people aren't rude to bad service staff, but the question isn't about whether the guy was being rude to Xander (because he was), it's about whether he's like that in general. You think he is, I don't, the point is that there isn't enough evidence to indicate either way with certainty because there is not enough evidence.

And as I have said already - I will not discuss other characters.
Then you are being hypocritical, judging one character based on one interaction of behaviour, whilst ignoring others that demonstrate that same behaviour.
 

vampmogs

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Where does he "explicitly admit" to judging non-college students as being beneath him? Where does he say that?
"We are the future of this country and you keep our bowl of peanuts full."

Like, seriously, does it need to be spelled out anymore clearly?

Because his exact words are "Now given YOUR sociological statuses. I foresee a B rejects A dyad. I'm sorry, lemme clarify. You see, we are the future of this country and YOU keep our bowl of peanuts full. We are what these girls want."

The guy is being a jerk to Xander, but he's being a jerk to XANDER, not barmen as a whole.
Xander's sociological statuses would equally apply to all other barmen his position, no? The only thing he knows about Xander is that he's a barmen and he makes derogatory comments based SOLELY on that. So, ergo, if he's insulting Xander then he's insulting.... you do the math.

Also, I can't at how many times that you have specifically quoted that guy's douchebag comments yourself and you still feel comfortable defending him. I don't know about you, but if I had to keep posting "we are the future of this country and you keep our bowl of peanuts full" I'd begin questioning whether this guy is really worth my time.

Also your basis that he's a jerk to non-college students is based on a pool of one, that's hardly fool-proof evidence.
He tells us what he thinks about non-college students. He's an unbelievable jerk in the scene itself. The episode's entire plot is about the bar owner getting revenge on college elitists who demean and insult him. The guy is a poster boy for this kind of attitude. Again, you do the math.

Again, he's being a jerk to XANDER. He's not saying "Barmen keep our bowl of peanuts full" he's saying "YOU keep our bowl of peanuts full".
BECAUSE HE'S THE BARMAN *facepalm*

Where? Where does he confess and "explicitly admit" that he's not a nice guy and he's proud of it?
He is blatantly and publicly telling Xander "I am an elitist who considers myself better than you because I am the future of this country and you're just a barman" with a smug smile on his face. He looks pretty damn proud to me....

I interpret the line "Hey Paula. You keeping this fine bartender from his duty? A man's gotta make a living" as a subtle hint that maybe Xander should concentrate on doing his actual job rather than stopping to hit on women.
1) I wasn't aware this guy was Xander's boss
2) How does he know Xander was "hitting" on this girl? How does he know they're not friends? Xander is friends with Buffy and Willow despite not attending the college, after all. It's a crowded and noisy bar. All this guy would have seen is Xander talking to this girl. For all he knows, Xander is gay. Not that it's ANY of his business, mind you.

When Xander is talking to Buffy, the bar owner is telling him to get back to work, and in the scene prior we see Xander struggling to keep up with everybody's order and some of the customers getting annoyed. Xander's bar "experience" is that he's seen the movie Cocktail. He lied to get the job, so he probably lied about his level of experience too which means that everybody expects him to know what he's doing when he clearly has no clue.
1) As I've said repeatedly, I have had numerous occasions where I haven't been thrilled with the service of a waiter/barman but I have never, ever publicly demeaned and humiliated them or made gross elitist comments about their worthlessness due to their job. Why do you keep saying this as if it's a justification or something? What does Xander being terrible at his job have to do with this guy making ugly comments about Xander's worth to his country or to other women? How gross.
2) Xander specifically tells this guy (not that he should have to) that he's "due for a break." So had this guy been soo concerned about Xander doing his job poorly, he was rest assured that Xander was not chatting to this girl whilst on the clock.
3) If the guy was sooo concerned about Xander doing his job why then, may I ask, did he stop Xander from leaving ("ah forget it"), and keep him there just so he could insult and humiliate him further? Xander wanted to leave the situation but the guy continued anyway. If he was so concerned about Xander not serving people wouldn't Xander leaving the conversation to attend to others be exactly what he'd have wanted? But there was seemingly enough time to hold Xander up so he could insult him some more. Hmm.
 
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DeadlyDuo

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@vampmogs We are clearly not going to see eye to eye on this. You're interpreting it one way, I interpret it another.. I don't think you can make a sweeping statement based on one interaction particularly when it's followed by a different action eg the guy is mean to Xander but then is genuinely nice to Buffy. The guy stopped Xander leaving because he said he was due a break.

I suspect the general college student population do have a sense of self-importance about them. They expect to get good jobs once they graduate college, and that is something the colleges would want to promote so that the money keeps flowing in. There's also a sense of "the worm has turned". In high school, it didn't pay to be smart, the jocks and cheerleaders ruled the roost. In college, it's a totally different ball game. The smartest are the ones who thrive.
 

vampmogs

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The guy stopped Xander leaving because he said he was due a break.
If that were true and he knows Xander is due for a break, why would he expect Xander to continue working and pour him a pitcher of beer for him then? Somehow I don't think this guy cares about Xander getting his break :rolleyes:

But yes, I am more than happy for us to leave it there.

I suspect the general college student population do have a sense of self-importance about them. They expect to get good jobs once they graduate college, and that is something the colleges would want to promote so that the money keeps flowing in. There's also a sense of "the worm has turned". In high school, it didn't pay to be smart, the jocks and cheerleaders ruled the roost. In college, it's a totally different ball game. The smartest are the ones who thrive.
This will absolutely be true for some people but it doesn't make it right. I don't think Buffy, Willow or Oz would ever have talked to a barmen like this. I know I certainly never did throughout my college years either and I sure as hell wouldn't have had anything to do with someone who did. I currently have a very well-paid job and lead a team of over 20 people and I can hand on my heart say I treat the office cleaners I see every morning with just as much respect as I do the staff in my team or the Director of the company. Nobody is better than anybody just because of their occupation and dare I say there's many people in "lower" positions who are damn sight more pleasant and kind than those at the top of the hill.
 

DeadlyDuo

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If that were true and he knows Xander is due for a break, why would he expect Xander to continue working and pour him a pitcher of beer for him then? Somehow I don't think this guy cares about Xander getting his break :rolleyes:

But yes, I am more than happy for us to leave it there.
He didn't know Xander was due a break when he made the original comment. He stopped Xander after Xander made a point of saying he was due a break in a display of macho posturing.

This will absolutely be true for some people but it doesn't make it right. I don't think Buffy, Willow or Oz would ever have talked to a barmen like this. I know I certainly never did throughout my college years either and I sure as hell wouldn't have had anything to do with someone who did. I currently have a very well-paid job and lead a team of over 20 people and I can hand on my heart say I treat the office cleaners I see every morning with just as much respect as I do the staff in my team or the Director of the company. Nobody is better than anybody just because of their occupation and dare I say there's many people in "lower" positions who are damn sight more pleasant and kind than those at the top of the hill.
Be nice to those you meet on the way up as you might be meeting them again on the way down.

Again it all comes down to a difference of opinion. I think the guy was being mean to Xander specifically, you think he was being mean to bartenders in general.

New question: What if Buffy never slept with Parker and so Beer Bad became about Willow after her break up with Oz?
 

vampmogs

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He didn't know Xander was due a break when he made the original comment.
The guy asks for a pitcher of Black Frost AFTER Xander tells him he's due for a break. So, nope, he's perfectly happy with wanting Xander to serve him whilst he's on a break.

Also just went back and checked to confirm this and the guy even admits to "rudely interrupting." But nah you're right. Xander is totally guilty of macho posturing ;) It's totally macho to want to continue having the discussion you were having before someone rudely interrupts you :)

Again it all comes down to a difference of opinion. I think the guy was being mean to Xander specifically, you think he was being mean to bartenders in general.
I think it's safe to say that if another bartender was nearby and heard this guy insult Xander about his "sociological status" based entirely on the fact that Xander was a bartender (as this guy literally knowings NOTHING else about Xander) then that bartender would be as equally as insulted as Xander was seeing as how what he's insulting him about would apply just as much to them as it would Xander. So, yeah, I think he was insulting bartenders in general and you haven't really offered any kind of rational reason for why he wasn't (or why he was even being mean to Xander in the first place besides the fact he was the bartender).

ew question: What if Buffy never slept with Parker and so Beer Bad became about Willow after her break up with Oz?
The episode would be radically different. A lot of the caveman scenes revolve around Buffy being not just a Cavewoman but a "Cave!Slayer" (Giles and Xander's weariness around her, Buffy saving the others from the fire etc) which wouldn't apply to Willow. Also, the cathartic ending of Buffy clobbering Parker wouldn't be able to happen if it had been about the Willow/Oz breakup as Seth Green would no longer be on the show.
 

telperion66

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I actually just got done re-watching this episode last night.

Although previously it had not been one of my "go-to" episodes of Buffy season four, I actually really enjoyed it this time.

I think a lot of the thing with re-watches is you tend to like different seasons and episodes depending on where you have progressed to at that particular point in your life when you revisit an episode or season.

I really enjoyed the Oz/Veruca tease and Willow's reaction to their initial encounter in the Bronze.

I enjoy Parker in this episode; the actor does a great job of delivering Parker's "earnest" lines of dialogue to Willow and overall I thought the character of Parker brought a lot to the early part of season four.

I enjoy the interaction of the "smart" guys in Xander's pub who are funny in their dialogue and good to watch.
 
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