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BtVS and Consent Issues: Episode 3.15 – “Consequences”

RagnarockerB

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#21
Because Xander is on the receiving end of the “big joke” comment, he’s the only one who seems to think that it wasn’t a nice thing of Buffy to say.
Maybe it's a lot harder to sympathize with Xander because of the casual sexism he just keeps throwing around. In what amounts to a kind of cathartic dramatic irony, Xander, in his hormonal teenage douchebaggery, is finally given exactly what he wants; sex, with an attractive girl.

And the emotional blowout of it sucks.

And I mean, it'd be nice if he took the opportunity to learn and grow from it, but he kind of doesn't really. Until Xander and Anya start dating, it doesn't feel like his attitude towards women progresses all that much. I still hadn't forgiven him for the way he took getting rejected by Buffy. Not to mention how overly involved Xander is with Buffy's sex life all the time, like after a while you just wanna grab him by the shoulders and shake him and say YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO AN OPINION ON EVERYTHING.

He innocently believed that having sex with someone meant that they liked each other. He was naive.
As any teenager is on their first time. Your first time usually means something special even if it wasn't that great. It's a right of passage into adulthood that you carry with you for the rest of your life, good or bad. It's the benchmark by which you judge all the others. And you usually know that someone is special when the first time with the special someone holds more weight than your first time ever.

Still, you'd have to be blind in one eye to not see how pretty non-committal Faith was to having sex (laugh, damn you, it's funny). And as a boy who constantly likes to tease girls about how their dresses make them look like hookers, or how a girl being a taxi is only locker room talk, eeeeehhhhhh, Xander should have known. Also the casual slutshaming just further proves my point that Xander kind of needed that. Dude was kind of a dick.

And cavegirl Buffy delivering a tree to the side of Parker's head - come on, that makes "Beer Bad" one of the best episodes of the season!
While I despise the puritanical afterschool special message of the episode, I'ma be real, that was deserved. I think I rewinded, that scene five times. I hadn't clapped that hard for justice on my screen since The Purple Wedding(where my Game Of Thrones fans at?)
 
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#22
In what amounts to a kind of cathartic dramatic irony, Xander, in his hormonal teenage douchebaggery, is finally given exactly what he wants; sex, with an attractive girl.
I don't get it. Is it wrong to want to have sex with an attractive woman?

Sure, Xander talks about sex a lot and wants to lose his virginity, but's that's how a lot of boys used to be at that age especially in the 90s, especially insecure boys with abusive musculain fathers. But as it turns out, it's all just talk. When it becomes reality, Xander isn't really into casual sex. Xander wants a relationship. With Faith, he thought she slept with him because they had a connection. With Anya, he implied that he wanted to slow things down, get to know each other before they had their first time. It's also very telling that Xander and Cordelia never had sex. If Xander was this sex-crazed hormonal teenage douchebag, wouldn't he have had sex with Cordelia? Who clearly liked him a lot? We never hear Cordelia talk about Xander pressuring her to have sex.



I still hadn't forgiven him for the way he took getting rejected by Buffy.
I also don't get this either. I see some fans talk about how horrible Xander's handling of Buffy's rejection was, but why? Yes, he says one hurtful bad line, but he apologizes right away. Not to mention that he gets over it in the same episode, talks Angel into moving his behind and getting him to the Master's place and then saves Buffy's life. That's a good person.

A lot of 16 year olds don't handle emotional distress well, I mean they become drama queens over not getting the new iPhone. Not to mention that Xander isn't the only teenage kid who doesn't handle rejection badly. Willow in Innocence didn't and told Xander he had gross emotional needs just because he was kissing Cordelia. But it's understandable. They're kids. They're venting. Xander is offended that Buffy would pick necrophilia over dating him. Willow is offended that Xander likes the bully who insulted them for years over her. But both Xander and Willow get over it in the same episode and do the right thing!



Not to mention how overly involved Xander is with Buffy's sex life all the time,
I disagree. That might have been the case when he had feelings for her in S1 and early S2, but after he started dating Cordelia, he stopped getting upset over Buffy dating other guys. He didn't care when Buffy dated that swim team guy in Go Fish, Scott Hope in S3, even Angel in S3, Riley in S4, Ben in S5, set her up with Richard in S6 (which I've always felt was more Anya pushing the matter because she wanted double dates), didn't care about her dating Wood in S7. He was only upset about Spike, because of who Spike was, and later apologized for his behavior and called himself an ass.


And as a boy who constantly likes to tease girls about how their dresses make them look like hookers, or how a girl being a taxi is only locker room talk, eeeeehhhhhh, Xander should have known. Also the casual slutshaming just further proves my point that Xander kind of needed that.
That's like saying Cordelia needed to lose money and live in poverty for all the jokes she made about Xander's financial situation. No body deserves what happened to Xander in Consequences. The almost rape/murder scene was so horrific. Xander never joked about raping someone and never attempted to rape someone.
 
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#23
^^

I'd add that I can't recall Xander making sexist comments to anyone other than Cordelia, who made sexist comments herself (as did Willow, also only about Cordelia). Which is to say Xander doesn't come off as sexist to me, though he is immature. The sexist comments he makes to Cordelia do annoy me at times, but so do the sexist comments Cordelia makes that are disparaging to women, and Willow, though I often also understand why they do it (as kids).

And also saying that Xander deserved Faith's treatment of him sounds like saying a girl obsessed with her social status who thus pursues the "correct" guys (as Cordelia was known to do) deserve their own treatment of casual sexual contempt by the guys she manipulates and pursues. (That said, Faith never pretended anything otherwise, so while harsh I don't hold it against her, and despite what Buffy says, I don't recall Faith ever treating the guys she had sex with as a joke. I wouldn't hold Parker's casual attitude toward sex against him if he wasn't so manipulative and deceitful about it as well as contemptuous after, even if a woman wrongly assumed there was something more implied by her own mistaken assumption as Xander did with Faith.)
 

thetopher

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#24
The simple fact is that men and women (in general) tend to view sex differently, especially their first time with somebody else. So Buffy saying that to Xander isn't the same as if Xander had said it to Buffy.
It's not like Buffy was trying to be mean, she was just thrown by Xander's revelation about Faith, and reacted accordingly, trying to let him down as easy as she could; her tone wasn't dismissive or anything.
 

RagnarockerB

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#25
he stopped getting upset over Buffy dating other guys.
Mostly so he could cheat on Cordi with Willow, so, you know. Still a dick.

I don't get it. Is it wrong to want to have sex with an attractive woman?
Of course not, but I appreciate the "be careful what you wish for" theme it subtly dovetails into.

I mean they become drama queens over not getting the new iPhone
Yeah, if they're spoiled brats. But that's a stereotype born from nutpicking a subsect of dramatic children. And as someone who was sixteen not too long ago, that shit is patronizing. That's behaviour more befitting of an 8 year old, not a highschooler.

Willow in Innocence didn't and told Xander he had gross emotional needs just because he was kissing Cordelia.
Willow's shitty behaviour is a WHOLE other topic, and I could fill essays, but I'll not digress.

Yes, he says one hurtful bad line, but he apologizes right away. Not to mention that he gets over it in the same episode, talks Angel into moving his behind and getting him to the Master's place and then saves Buffy's life. That's a good person.
No, no, that's not how you treat one of your best friends and also the person you supposedly have feelings for. Also apologizing doesn't immediately make you a good person. Xander also saved her by being the only dude nearby who breathed oxygen so I'm not going to give him a medal for basic human decency. Not to mention he tries afterward to get Willow to be the rebound and I'll give Willow props for seeing right through that shit. My seething contempt for this nice-guy complex behaviour will never end.

Xander is offended that Buffy would pick necrophilia over dating him. Willow is offended that Xander likes the bully who insulted them for years over her.
Neither of them have a leg to stand on here, since you don't have a say in who the object of your affection has feelings for. Buffy's old enough to make her own mistakes and while friendly advice and well-meaning caution never goes amiss, there are boundaries. If you have feelings for someone and you don't take the plunge and confess them before the other person develops feelings for someone else, you are in the wrong. No matter how crummy you deem the person your crush has feelings for to be. And even if you're venting, that doesn't mean you're not still in the wrong. It's not excusable behaviour.

Xander never joked about raping someone and never attempted to rape someone
The Pack, s01e06. Sure, he was under the control of a hyena spirit (oh my god that was such a dumb plot) but there are some flecks of Xander's character shining through the cracks. And while the other students made a beeline to murder the principle, Xander went straight for Buffy. Make of that what you will.

But I'll say this, the ending events of consequences, yeah, not even Xander deserved an attempted sexual assault and then violent physical assault. No human being deserves that. As much contempt as I have for Xander in the early seasons, even I have a line.

He's still a dick though.

I'd add that I can't recall Xander making sexist comments to anyone other than Cordelia, who made sexist comments herself
It's all over seasons 1 and 2, you don't need to look hard. Cordi is guilty of this too but her most scathing jabs only come after Xander was unfaithful, and she deserved to get her own back. Season 3 Xander seems to slow it down a little and since Consequences is a season 3 episode, Xander has matured at least a little.

so do the sexist comments Cordelia makes that are disparaging to women, and Willow
Yeah, there's just a lot of unchecked casual comments from all. Maybe it's an artifact of the show's time, maybe the creator was kind of a womanizer, who knows :D At least it gets somewhat better as it goes along. I think The Zeppo is probably when the maturation happens enough to be visibly noticeable and the casual sexism becomes the exception more than the rule, considering how the previous episode, Helpless, is a much more nuanced examination of gender and patriarchal structures than it's given credit for. Xander still has some ways to go but here I have less of an urge to vote him off the island.
 
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#27
At least it gets somewhat better as it goes along. I think The Zeppo is probably when the maturation happens enough to be visibly noticeable and the casual sexism becomes the exception more than the rule
Except for casual sexism against men in the form of "Anya the funny serial killer of men (and many women too)" but who cares about that? Or Andrew the wannabe rapist and Spike the actual rapist who are so lovable and deserving of million chances, no unfortunate implications about that, not at all. Xander hurting Cordelia's feelings is clearly far more offensive in terms of sexism than making a rapist the romantic lead, you convinced me.

No, no, that's not how you treat one of your best friends and also the person you supposedly have feelings for. Also apologizing doesn't immediately make you a good person. Xander also saved her by being the only dude nearby who breathed oxygen so I'm not going to give him a medal for basic human decency.
I am sorry but what? Have you watched Prophecy Girl at all? Xander threatened and guilt-tripped Angel into helping him, then went into tunnels infested with vampires specifically to save Buffy and did just that. He didn't just happen to be around when Buffy needed CPR. Feel free to hate Xander's initial reaction to the his rejection by Buffy as much as you want but calling his heroics later in the episode "basic human decency" is hilariously wrong.

The Pack, s01e06. Sure, he was under the control of a hyena spirit (oh my god that was such a dumb plot) but there are some flecks of Xander's character shining through the cracks. And while the other students made a beeline to murder the principle, Xander went straight for Buffy. Make of that what you will.
Unless you think the other four members of the pack all secretly craved to become cannibals this tells us nothing about Xander's having or nor a secret rape cravings when not under a magical influence. The hyena influence turned him into a rapist, he picked Buffy as his target because he was already crushing on Buffy. If Willow had bee whammied she would have picked Xander, doesn't means she craves to be a rapist when not under a magical influence.
 
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#29
Except for casual sexism against men in the form of "Anya the funny serial killer of men (and many women too)" but who cares about that? Or Andrew the wannabe rapist and Spike the actual rapist who are so lovable and deserving of million chances, no unfortunate implications about that, not at all. Xander hurting Cordelia's feelings is clearly far more offensive in terms of sexism than making a rapist the romantic lead, you convinced me.
I disagree on a couple of things:

1. Spike wasn't an actual rapist, there was the AR scene (which was unnecessary and oddly placed within the story in my opinion) but never has it been said that Spike has raped. There was the ambiguous comment about what he used to do to "girls Dawn's age" (which could also mean other things beside rape) but we also saw Spike turn down Angelus' offer of the bride in favour of spending time with Dru. "Making a rapist the romantic lead" is more problematic in terms of Angel depending on whether or not you class Angelus and Angel as the same person or as two separate identities.

2. Andrew being a "wannabe rapist" is also dependent on whether intention matters. Andrew and Jonathan seemed quite shocked when Katrina pointed out that what they planned to do was rape as if the notion hadn't crossed their mind. Without a doubt, if they had carried through then they would certainly be rapists (even if she hadn't told them) because Katrina couldn't fully consent, however I don't think they looked at the situation as a rape until they were told that was what it was. Therefore they weren't "wannabe rapists" in that they did not have the intention to commit rape but they would've been rapists had they slept with Katrina if that makes sense. Warren on the other hand was definitely a "wannabe rapist".

3. Whilst it could be argued that Anya exhibited casual sexism against men, she was also called out on it by other characters. She was never presented as being right which is the difference between Anya saying something and Cordelia blaming another woman for being attacked. The latter is more dangerous than the former.
 
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#30
I disagree on a couple of things:

1. Spike wasn't an actual rapist, there was the AR scene (which was unnecessary and oddly placed within the story in my opinion) but never has it been said that Spike has raped. There was the ambiguous comment about what he used to do to "girls Dawn's age" (which could also mean other things beside rape) but we also saw Spike turn down Angelus' offer of the bride in favour of spending time with Dru. "Making a rapist the romantic lead" is more problematic in terms of Angel depending on whether or not you class Angelus and Angel as the same person or as two separate identities.

2. Andrew being a "wannabe rapist" is also dependent on whether intention matters. Andrew and Jonathan seemed quite shocked when Katrina pointed out that what they planned to do was rape as if the notion hadn't crossed their mind. Without a doubt, if they had carried through then they would certainly be rapists (even if she hadn't told them) because Katrina couldn't fully consent, however I don't think they looked at the situation as a rape until they were told that was what it was. Therefore they weren't "wannabe rapists" in that they did not have the intention to commit rape but they would've been rapists had they slept with Katrina if that makes sense. Warren on the other hand was definitely a "wannabe rapist".

3. Whilst it could be argued that Anya exhibited casual sexism against men, she was also called out on it by other characters. She was never presented as being right which is the difference between Anya saying something and Cordelia blaming another woman for being attacked. The latter is more dangerous than the former.
Spike is a rapist he would have raped Buffy if she had not fought him off no other woman could have fought him off
Spike is a rapist he raped Buffy in the Bronze she said don't he said stop me she never consented so it is rape
Spike is a rapist he said that he knows just how much blood to take so they still cry , what do you think this means stealing their dinner money, pulling the Arms off their Barbie doll , tickling them ??...of course its rape ....Spike is a murdering rapist
There are consent issues throughout Buffy
S1 the pack Xander trying to rape Buffy in the cafeteria , but what do you think they were chasing he for ? she says to Xander you know what
you want
S2 bewitched bothered bewildered all the woman put under a love spell
S2 the fish monsters attempted gang rape
S3 consequences Faith is on top of Xander to kill him not to have sex
S4 where wild things are..... both Riley and Buffy are mind altered so rape
S5 Who are you Buffy body is raped by Riley thinking Faith is Buffy
S5 Dracula puts Buffy into a trance...he bites her... is there anything else?
S6 Spike on Buffy, Buffy says no or don't but because of her mental issues until Seeing red she is easily manipulated
S6 Spike the attempted rape
S6 The trio trying a drug induce gang rape on Warren's ex
s7 Get it done the shadow men try's to rape Buffy with the demon essence...
Anybody anymore ?
 
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#31
Spike is a rapist he would have raped Buffy if she had not fought him off no other woman could have fought him off
That only makes him an attempted rapist which has already been acknowledged, not an actual rapist.

Spike is a rapist he raped Buffy in the Bronze she said don't he said stop me she never consented so it is rape
Buffy would often tell Spike she wants nothing to do with him then seeks him out and initiates sex with him. No didn't always mean no in Spuffy and that's where half the problems lie. There were no clear set boundaries. The AR is all on Spike without a doubt, but let's not diminish Buffy's agency in Spuffy here. She made some crappy choices for sure but she still made those choices of her own free will.

Spike is a rapist he said that he knows just how much blood to take so they still cry , what do you think this means stealing their dinner money, pulling the Arms off their Barbie doll , tickling them ??...of course its rape ....Spike is a murdering rapist
Torture? A slow and painful death? Or are we assuming that just because the victims are female, it must
automatically​
be rape because no other crime can be committed against a woman except rape.

There are consent issues throughout Buffy
S1 the pack Xander trying to rape Buffy in the cafeteria , but what do you think they were chasing he for ? she says to Xander you know what
you want
S2 bewitched bothered bewildered all the woman put under a love spell
S2 the fish monsters attempted gang rape
S3 consequences Faith is on top of Xander to kill him not to have sex
S4 where wild things are..... both Riley and Buffy are mind altered so rape
S5 Who are you Buffy body is raped by Riley thinking Faith is Buffy
S5 Dracula puts Buffy into a trance...he bites her... is there anything else?
S6 Spike on Buffy, Buffy says no or don't but because of her mental issues until Seeing red she is easily manipulated
S6 Spike the attempted rape
S6 The trio trying a drug induce gang rape on Warren's ex
s7 Get it done the shadow men try's to rape Buffy with the demon essence...
Anybody anymore ?
I didn't bring up Xander in The Pack so I don't know why you're asking me what I think they were chasing her for, rather than just listing it generally as an example of consent issues. Thing is though, if Hyena-Xander had raped Buffy, wouldn't that also make normal-Xander a victim too as he would never have consented to forcing himself on his friend.

Same problem with Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. If one of the women raped Xander, wouldn't that make them both victims? The woman because she was under a spell and did not consent to forcing herself on Xander and Xander because he would've been raped by someone he didn't want to sleep with.

I'd say the fish monsters were less attempted and more actually implied. The only difference being that it was the coach that ended up as the victim rather than Buffy.

Faith was certainly strangling Xander, but then it could've had the dual purpose of erotic asphyxiation as well. Xander was lucky Angel was there to save him.

WTWTA- Not rape. Buffy and Riley were compelled to keep having sex, but they consented to sleepig with each other.

Who are you?- BOTH Riley and Buffy are raped by Faith.

Buffy vs Dracula is played as a sexual assault and Riley blames Buffy for it. It's problematic.

I've already mentioned how Buffy still played an active part in Spuffy of her own volition. She may have hated herself for what she was doing with Spike but she still chose to do it of her own volition. The AR is all on Spike though.

Already mentioned the trio and Katrina.
The demon essence certainly had that vibe to it, which could've been deliberate or an unfortunate implication.


What is extremely noticeable though is how none of the sexual assaults against the men are recognised at all, whilst at least the sexual assaults against the women get some recognition albeit handled poorly.
 
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#32
That only makes him an attempted rapist which has already been acknowledged, not an actual rapist.



Buffy would often tell Spike she wants nothing to do with him then seeks him out and initiates sex with him. No didn't always mean no in Spuffy and that's where half the problems lie. There were no clear set boundaries. The AR is all on Spike without a doubt, but let's not diminish Buffy's agency in Spuffy here. She made some crappy choices for sure but she still made those choices of her own free will.



Torture? A slow and painful death? Or are we assuming that just because the victims are female, it must
automatically​
be rape because no other crime can be committed against a woman except rape.



I didn't bring up Xander in The Pack so I don't know why you're asking me what I think they were chasing her for, rather than just listing it generally as an example of consent issues. Thing is though, if Hyena-Xander had raped Buffy, wouldn't that also make normal-Xander a victim too as he would never have consented to forcing himself on his friend.

Same problem with Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. If one of the women raped Xander, wouldn't that make them both victims? The woman because she was under a spell and did not consent to forcing herself on Xander and Xander because he would've been raped by someone he didn't want to sleep with.

I'd say the fish monsters were less attempted and more actually implied. The only difference being that it was the coach that ended up as the victim rather than Buffy.

Faith was certainly strangling Xander, but then it could've had the dual purpose of erotic asphyxiation as well. Xander was lucky Angel was there to save him.

WTWTA- Not rape. Buffy and Riley were compelled to keep having sex, but they consented to sleepig with each other.

Who are you?- BOTH Riley and Buffy are raped by Faith.

Buffy vs Dracula is played as a sexual assault and Riley blames Buffy for it. It's problematic.

I've already mentioned how Buffy still played an active part in Spuffy of her own volition. She may have hated herself for what she was doing with Spike but she still chose to do it of her own volition. The AR is all on Spike though.

Already mentioned the trio and Katrina.
The demon essence certainly had that vibe to it, which could've been deliberate or an unfortunate implication.


What is extremely noticeable though is how none of the sexual assaults against the men are recognised at all, whilst at least the sexual assaults against the women get some recognition albeit handled poorly.
The pack Xander wanted Buffy before..... the animal instincts took away Xanders inhibitions
BBB it was Xanders Spell he initiated it ...he's bad luck the spell went screwy but he did it
WTWTA compelled = no control
Riley was not raped he chose to sleep with Buffy/ Faith ....Buffy had no influence on her Body it was used by both Riley and Faith
Dracula it is played as a sexual assault ....I read tonight that Dracula was working with the Monks and is this how they got Buffy's blood ?
The demon essence rape /attempted rape ..... Buffy's fault.... after all she was wearing a skirt so she should have guess Whedon / Noxon would have something perverted for her after all the last time I remember Buffy wearing a Skirt she got sodomised in the bronze
 

DeepBlueJoy

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#33
Spike is no more a rapist than Xander is a rapist. both are attempted rapist. both were demon possessed. One had a human soul, one didn't.

Xander is culpable in BBB. Period. Everything that transpired was his fault, even if it wasn't all his doing, he set it in motion.

Riley couldn't consent to what Faith did and neither could Buffy's body. Therefore, it was non consensual. Whether you call it rape, I don't know... but if I'm tricked into sleeping with someone I would not sleep with, I'd call it, at minimum, assault.

Not even gonna address the 'she asked for it' bullshit. No, I will: Bullshit.

Rape is always and ONLY the responsibility of the person doing the raping.

People get to be stupid and walk down dangerous streets and no one says their being robbed is their fault. It might be stupid. There's nothing that Buffy did to ask for assault. It's not even funny. Rape. Not. Funny.
 
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#34
That only makes him an attempted rapist which has already been acknowledged, not an actual rapist.



Buffy would often tell Spike she wants nothing to do with him then seeks him out and initiates sex with him. No didn't always mean no in Spuffy and that's where half the problems lie. There were no clear set boundaries. The AR is all on Spike without a doubt, but let's not diminish Buffy's agency in Spuffy here. She made some crappy choices for sure but she still made those choices of her own free will.



Torture? A slow and painful death? Or are we assuming that just because the victims are female, it must
automatically​
be rape because no other crime can be committed against a woman except rape.



I didn't bring up Xander in The Pack so I don't know why you're asking me what I think they were chasing her for, rather than just listing it generally as an example of consent issues. Thing is though, if Hyena-Xander had raped Buffy, wouldn't that also make normal-Xander a victim too as he would never have consented to forcing himself on his friend.

Same problem with Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. If one of the women raped Xander, wouldn't that make them both victims? The woman because she was under a spell and did not consent to forcing herself on Xander and Xander because he would've been raped by someone he didn't want to sleep with.

I'd say the fish monsters were less attempted and more actually implied. The only difference being that it was the coach that ended up as the victim rather than Buffy.

Faith was certainly strangling Xander, but then it could've had the dual purpose of erotic asphyxiation as well. Xander was lucky Angel was there to save him.

WTWTA- Not rape. Buffy and Riley were compelled to keep having sex, but they consented to sleepig with each other.

Who are you?- BOTH Riley and Buffy are raped by Faith.

Buffy vs Dracula is played as a sexual assault and Riley blames Buffy for it. It's problematic.

I've already mentioned how Buffy still played an active part in Spuffy of her own volition. She may have hated herself for what she was doing with Spike but she still chose to do it of her own volition. The AR is all on Spike though.

Already mentioned the trio and Katrina.
The demon essence certainly had that vibe to it, which could've been deliberate or an unfortunate implication.


What is extremely noticeable though is how none of the sexual assaults against the men are recognised at all, whilst at least the sexual assaults against the women get some recognition albeit handled poorly.
Sorry missed out good old Spike.... yes Buffy fought him off so that only makes him a AR , his mind said rape his body said rape he was ignoring the woman begging under him...she just happen to fight him off ...all better, he did not stop she fought him off ...he is a RAPIST
I never understand how people treat Spike like he is a chivalrous Knight he is not..... he is a mass murdering, evil,selfish demon, he rips out peoples throats and drinks their blood, he said to Buffy he knows exactly how much blood to leave so young girls like Dawn,that they still cry when you ...of course he is talking about rape, he is a rapist, he wanted to rape Buffy...... why would he not use a young girl..... he would take her life after when he got peckish and not give her a second thought, how do people defend a animal like that
 
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Taake

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Black Thorn
#35
Let's take it down a notch, ok?
First of all this thread is not about Spike or the AR. Secondly, please respect other members opinions and their right to enjoy a character you do not.

The thread topic is about the season 3 episode Consequences, so let's move back in that direction.
 
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#36
Spike is no more a rapist than Xander is a rapist. both are attempted rapist. both were demon possessed. One had a human soul, one didn't.

Xander is culpable in BBB. Period. Everything that transpired was his fault, even if it wasn't all his doing, he set it in motion.

Riley couldn't consent to what Faith did and neither could Buffy's body. Therefore, it was non consensual. Whether you call it rape, I don't know... but if I'm tricked into sleeping with someone I would not sleep with, I'd call it, at minimum, assault.

Not even gonna address the 'she asked for it' bullshit. No, I will: Bullshit.

Rape is always and ONLY the responsibility of the person doing the raping.

People get to be stupid and walk down dangerous streets and no one says their being robbed is their fault. It might be stupid. There's nothing that Buffy did to ask for assault. It's not even funny. Rape. Not. Funny.
On those attempts yes but Spike admits raping Girls dawn age to Buffy and as this post about consent Spike did not have it in the Bronze....hence rape
Yes to the Riley thing also..... but he knew Buffy was acting out of Character did not try to find out why
The Buffy skirt thing was pointing out that when Buffy was sexually assaulted in the later seasons/episodes she conveniently had a skirt on , like in Smashed ...in things like the Pack,go fish,or the Buffy / Faith indecent she did not
 
It was a big thing to Xander as he lost his virginity to Faith , it was also of a big thing to Willow
I don' t think that they were hard on Xander , it was a awkward situation ,but he felt special because Faith had had sex with him and took it hard
He must of held some hope they would sleep together again when he went there his excuse for turning up was so lame .....why would a court take notice of him ?
Buffy was right , Faith did not take the people she slept with seriously
Did any one else read about ED childhood assault....horrid.... what was the adults her care was trusted with thinking
 
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#37
The pack Xander wanted Buffy before..... the animal instincts took away Xanders inhibitions
Xander would NEVER consent to raping Buffy. He turned her down in BBB when she threw herself at him because he didn't want to take advantage. He had no control in The Pack, he only got possessed in the first place because he was standing up for Lance. If Hyena-Xander had raped Willow, would you say that Xander must've wanted that in some way? After all he hung out with Willow a lot and had a fling with her in Season 3. Just because Xander fancied Buffy doesn't mean he wants to rape her.

BBB it was Xanders Spell he initiated it ...he's bad luck the spell went screwy but he did it
Xander's intention for the spell was for Cordelia to fall in love with him so he could publically dump her and make her feel how she made him feel. He wasn't going to sleep with her.

Just because Xander did something stupid, does not mean he deserves to be raped.

WTWTA compelled = no control
But they weren't mind altered which is what you said they were. They were caught in a loop of lust for each other. It's heavily suggested that it's because they were screwing so much that it kick started the poltergeists and it's only because they got interrupted that everything stopped. Buffy and Riley weren't even aware of what was going on.

Riley was not raped he chose to sleep with Buffy/ Faith ....Buffy had no influence on her Body it was used by both Riley and Faith
This is where you are wrong. Riley consented to sleep with BUFFY, not Faith. IF Buffy and Faith were identical twins and Faith pretended to be Buffy so she could sleep with Riley, would you not call that rape? How is Faith in Buffy's body any different from an identical twin?

Buffy was raped....by Faith. It was only fortuitous that Faith chose to sleep with Buffy's boyfriend, otherwise Buffy's body could've been having sex with anyone without Buffy's consent.

Sorry missed out good old Spike.... yes Buffy fought him off so that only makes him a AR , his mind said rape his body said rape he was ignoring the woman begging under him...she just happen to fight him off ...all better, he did not stop she fought him off ...he is a RAPIST
I never understand how people treat Spike like he is a chivalrous Knight he is not..... he is a mass murdering, evil,selfish demon, he rips out peoples throats and drinks their blood, he said to Buffy he knows exactly how much blood to leave so young girls like Dawn,that they still cry when you ...of course he is talking about rape, he is a rapist, he wanted to rape Buffy...... why would he not use a young girl..... he would take her life after when he got peckish and not give her a second thought, how do people defend a animal like that
Spike does NOT say that he raped girls Dawn's age. Whilst his comment is highly ambiguous, it could just as easily refer to torture. Given the fact he earned his name by torturing victims with rail road spikes, I'd say it's also more likely. Add in the fact that the writers want the audience to feel sympathy for Spike, having him admit to raping underage girls would completely derail that and would be counterproductive to that aim. "Rape is a special kind of evil" is a trope that is often used to show the audience that a character is irredeemable, the writers want the audience to root for Spike, not turn against him. It's why the AR is such an odd choice of scene to use to send Spike on his redemption arc because of how close it brought him to the "moral event horizon". Just because Spike mentions that the victims were female, doesn't mean it was automatically rape. Women can be victims of other crimes other than just rape.​

Spike admits raping Girls dawn age to Buffy
No he doesn't. See above.

Yes to the Riley thing also..... but he knew Buffy was acting out of Character did not try to find out why
Riley asked her if she was alright and "Buffy" said yes. Riley knew nothing about Faith so how was he supposed to know that a body swap might've happened. Even the other scoobies didn't figure it out until Tara pointed out that something was off. The scoobies knew Buffy a lot longer than Riley did.

The Buffy skirt thing was pointing out that when Buffy was sexually assaulted in the later seasons/episodes she conveniently had a skirt on , like in Smashed
Buffy was NOT sexually assaulted by Spike in Smashed. SHE was the one who initiated the sex with him. The fact she was wearing the skirt was just for plot convenience, it meant the sex scene could play out without the need to remove clothes.

The Balcony scene in Dead Things is also not so clear cut. The Spuffy relationship had no set boundaries, no did not always mean no eg Buffy would say she didn't want anything to do with Spike the she would go to him for sex. Was it a sign that the relationship was starting to get out of control? Yes. However, within the context of the relationship as it was, it was still not rape. The only time Spike sexually assaulted Buffy was with the AR.

Buffy DID have agency in Spuffy and SHE was often the one that INITIATED the sex. She made some bad choices but she still CHOSE to make those choices. Let's not take away her agency and paint Spike as a villain just because she's a woman and he's a man.

He must of held some hope they would sleep together again when he went there his excuse for turning up was so lame .....why would a court take notice of him ?
This is where you are wrong. Just because Xander and Faith slept together previously doesn't mean she can try and rape him. What if the genders had been reversed? How would it be any different to the Spuffy AR, after all Spike and Buffy slept together loads of times beforehand.

You need to understand that women are just as capable of being perpetrators as men are and that men can be victims of sexual assault too. Pretending that female on male rape does not exist because the man must "want it on some level" is downright dangerous and is a view that leads to male rapes going seriously under reported because of the view that if there is a rape, the woman must be the victim. We've had this conversation on this subject before. You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

And yes, I stand by my use of "you're wrong". This is not a "let's agree to disagree". You've stated before that you don't believe a man can be raped by a woman, and that is where you are wrong.
 
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#38
Spike is no more a rapist than Xander is a rapist.
If we go only with what we actually saw unfolding on screen, yes. But since Spike, being a vampire, had a strong sexual drive, no inhibitions, a great desire to hurt people for fun and the means to do it, it's extremely unlikely that he never raped anyone. That goes for all unsouled vampires, by the way, I am not singling out Spike. We weren't shown that on screen because on TV is more acceptable to show murders than rapes but the idea that Spike (or any unsouled vampire interested in sex at all) would not stoop to rape because it's "a special kind of evil" just doesn't fly for me. If they consider rape a special kind of evil this should only make them relish it even more because, you know, vampires, hurting people for the lulz is what they are all about.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Heh, a friend of mine (Buffy fan but never saw Angel) was once talking vaguely of the "moral event horizon" for Cordy he heard so much about and I assumed it was slitting the virgin's throat, but nope! (No need to say what it actually was.)

Buffy Summers

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#39
Taake already asked that the conversation go back to Season 3 and Consequences, Xander and Faith. Please do so. If you would like to discuss these other issues please start a new thread.
 
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