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BtVS and Consent Issues: Episode 3.15 – “Consequences”

WillowFromBuffy

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Well, that is a different argument. In "Becoming" there is an open discussion. In "Revelation," Buffy has decided to keep Angel's existence on Earth hidden and that she herself on her own can decide what is safe in regards to Angel's curse. That's why Xander, Cordelia, Giles and maybe even Oz find it hard to trust Buffy.
 

thetopher

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If Xander changed his mind upon seeing Giles, he would change his mind upon seeing Angel, wouldn't he? No matter how angry he is, Xander would not kill Angel if he knew he was good.
Xander changed his mind because a) Giles was hurt and b) He realized that it wasn't Angelus' m.o to batter someone unconscious and leave them alive.
Before that? He was busily selecting a crossbow.

If he and Faith had make it to the mansion and saw Angel (In vamp face) standing over Mrs. Post? twang Xander gets bow-happy. No doubt in my mind. He was on a mission and it took seeing somebody he cared about in pain to snap him out of it.

They are looking for Willow and they are starting to suspect her of being the murderer.
Yes, they collectively try to work out what's going on, but they don't jump tot he conclusion 'Willow's probably gonna kill again, let's do something about it because this doesn't look good for her'.

Willow isn't even angry at Buffy for suspecting her, because she knows it looked bad.
I agree. But Buffy isn't angry to begin with either; she's clearly guilty and ashamed. Then she gets defensive and angry, mainly because Xander is instantly judgemental and attacks.

And Buffy doesn't even disagree that it is dangerous for her and Angel to tightrope it. They don't know where his limit it.
Not the issue. Buffy assures everyone that she wouldn't let what happened before happen again. Giles and Willow believe her and the group collectively says 'okay, let's cool off'.
Xander doesn't care.

It's as if Dawn decided to go behind Buffy and Xander's back and, just to make sure that Willow isn't a threat, put something dangerous in motion 'cause she was pissed off at everybody making excuses for Willow.
That too would also be wrong because it puts a personal grievance over the group reasoning and decision making

There's nothing calculated about what Xander does. He goes to the the Bronze to cool off. He is angry.
Yes, I didn't say he went to Faith immediately, but when she suggests to make with the stake Xander just about jumps for joy and leads her straight to the weapons cabinet. Naked opportunism.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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If he and Faith had make it to the mansion and saw Angel (In vamp face) standing over Mrs. Post? twang Xander gets bow-happy. No doubt in my mind. He was on a mission and it took seeing somebody he cared about in pain to snap him out of it.

If Angel had told Buffy he was a vampire when they first met, then she might have let him explain himself when she saw her standing over her mother. Instead, Buffy almost kills Angel.
And that would have been tragic, but if Buffy wants Xander to give Angel the benefit of the doubt, then she should be open and honest with him.
Yes, they collectively try to work out what's going on, but they don't jump tot he conclusion 'Willow's probably gonna kill again, let's do something about it because this doesn't look good for her'.
The evidence wasn't particularly strong. Willow is not a vampire. It's a bit of a leap to think that she'd suddenly start killing randomly. And Willow had allowed herself to be put in Giles's custody ever since "Grave." If she wanted to go on a killing spree, she could have escaped whenever, but she returns to Sunnydale because Giles wants her to and the Scoobies are notified.

The transparency is very important. It is a condition for the trust she is shown. It would be a different thing if they could prove that Willow had been lying to them and experimented with dangerous magic in secret.
Yes, I didn't say he went to Faith immediately, but when she suggests to make with the stake Xander just about jumps for joy and leads her straight to the weapons cabinet. Naked opportunism.
But that's not being calculating, because that suggest a plan and a cold discerning mind. Opportunistic is a different thing, because both Xander and Faith jump at the opportunity to get back at Buffy, but Xander has the presence of mind to stop himself and consider evidence when it presents itself.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I think the main problem with Xander's dislike of Angel and Spike is that it's never addressed that it all stems from what happened to Jesse. Jesse is never mentioned again after the Harvest so it is extremely easy to forget he even existed. Therefore it makes Xander look like a dickhead because it appears that his attitude towards them either stems from jealousy (over Buffy) or he just hates them for what they are and ignores the fact that they're on team Scooby.
 

katmobile

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I think the main problem with Xander's dislike of Angel and Spike is that it's never addressed that it all stems from what happened to Jesse. Jesse is never mentioned again after the Harvest so it is extremely easy to forget he even existed. Therefore it makes Xander look like a dickhead because it appears that his attitude towards them either stems from jealousy (over Buffy) or he just hates them for what they are and ignores the fact that they're on team Scooby.
I think some of it IS jealousy over Buffy at least with Angel and the uglier and less justified aspects of his hatred of Spike are combined with anger over being Anya's rebound but I'll agree with much about this.
 

thetopher

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And that would have been tragic, but if Buffy wants Xander to give Angel the benefit of the doubt, then she should be open and honest with him.
So therefore Xander is justified in making a bad situation ten times worse? Nope.
Buffy's mistake doesn't give Xander the right to capitalize on it for his own murky ends. He is not being open and honest with Faith, for example.

The evidence wasn't particularly strong. Willow is not a vampire. It's a bit of a leap to think that she'd suddenly start killing randomly. And Willow had allowed herself to be put in Giles's custody ever since "Grave." If she wanted to go on a killing spree, she could have escaped whenever, but she returns to Sunnydale because Giles wants her to and the Scoobies are notified.
Flaying/skinning somebody is a very specific mo. and the Scoobs don't know anything about what happened with Giles and Willow or how bad her dark-magic absorption was. or how the rules of that kind of thing works. They all know how Angel's curse works.

The similarities between DW and Gnarl are merely emotive, and that's why the Scoobs even consider Willow as a suspect.
And in the same vein kissing is not boinking; the evidence for Angel suddenly returning to his old ways is not that strong, but it also emotive given what has happened in the past. That's what Xander is reacting to, Hell, he even admits that.

But that's not being calculating, because that suggest a plan and a cold discerning mind.
I should clarify that Xander is calculating only in his choice of words and the information he chooses to impart- not a lot. The opportunism comes from jumping on Faith's suggestion for his own agenda.
If he went to the Bronze to cool down, then he could've vented the entire frustrating situation to Faith, he chose not to. Instead of clarifying, since he knew the context of what had happened in the past, he cheers her on.

because both Xander and Faith jump at the opportunity to get back at Buffy, but Xander has the presence of mind to stop himself and consider evidence when it presents itself.
Faith might be hurt by Buffy's secrecy but she doesn't know anything about the history of Angel and the Scoobies; she's unaware of Xander's extreme bias. Unlike him she is not motivated by payback.
Imean, obviously Faith is hurt that a fellow slayer would keep that kind of (possibly dangerous) secret from her but mostly Faith's is only eager to show that she is useful and somebody the group- i.e Xander- can count on.
She also is the slayer, vampires is her job, so...kill vampire is her doing her duty.

Xander also tells Buffy 'you're boyfriend isn't as curing as you thought' when she shows up at the library, so the only thing he has is doubts, his bias still indicates he thinks its Angel.
Or maybe he's just trying to justify the huge mistake he'd made.
 
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