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Buffy and the "worthiness" of her relationships

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
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But is that right though?

Clem was a demon and was a perfectly nice guy.
Doyle was part demon and he helped angel on the side of good.
Cordelia became part demon.
Buffy turned out to be part demon because of her Slayer powers.

Should all of them be treated as "beneath" humans just because they're demons? They fight on the side of good. Does that mean Warren is "better" than them because he's human?
Don't think it matters what I think is right or wrong. I've mentioned before the racism that IMO runs rampant in both shows. It's the rules of their verse and as such I have to accept that's the world they live in. No one blinks an eye if something different looking dies without our heroes first establishing if it's evil or not. But it's amoral to even touch a hair in evil humans. As such, the logical conclusion is that anything demonic (good or bad) is beneath humanity. So Buffy telling Spike he is beneath her might be wrong from a viewers perspective but not the world Buffy lives in.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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Lions are super evil. Vampires and cats kill for both pleasure and sustenance. Have you ever seen a lion eating an antelope? Poor antelopes :(
Buffy even says during the training session with the potentials that vampires have to kill/feed to survive.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Cats are so misunderstood :( I think you need a cat hug.
Cats are beautiful and I applaud all the people who work to ensure the continued survival of the great cats. However, to their pray, cats are sadistic monsters who play mercilessly with their food.

"I'm more of a dog person."
 

Athene

Scooby
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Sineya
but Anya agreed to become a vengeance demon again because it was what was familiar. Anya's grasp on human emotions isn't the best eg she had sex with Xander because she thought it would help her get over him, so it's quite possible she thought returning to being a vengeance demon would somehow reset her feelings for Xander back to where she didn't love him. Of course that didn't work.
The fact Anya doesn't understand human emotions doesn't work for me because it's her fault that she has no understanding. She gave her humanity up when she made the decision to become a demon so why should that be used in favour of Anya? It's her fault that she's confused and doesn't understand how to be a human and it's weird how the writers used that to try and make us feel sympathy for Anya. I really think some of the writers weren't aware that Anya wasn't born a demon.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
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The fact Anya doesn't understand human emotions doesn't work for me because it's her fault that she has no understanding. She gave her humanity up when she made the decision to become a demon so why should that be used in favour of Anya? It's her fault that she's confused and doesn't understand how to be a human and it's weird how the writers used that to try and make us feel sympathy for Anya. I really think some of the writers weren't aware that Anya wasn't born a demon.
BS excuse by both Anya and the writers. Anya understands humanity just fine. She has spend centuries among humans and as we have seen (with Cordelia in S3) has to work well within society and it's 'rules' in order to get to her target. If anything she's an expert at humans and humanity, hence she also knows playing dumb in her situation is the best way to get what she wants.
 

Icarium

Scooby
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Anya understands human emotions perfectly well - her job for a millennium was manipulating people into making stupid wishes and you can't manipulate people without knowing what makes them tick, after all. It's just that the writers decided to use her as comic relief by rewriting her character into the clueless alien, so to speak. but still, in serious scenes she often wasn't clueless about human emotions at all.

No one blinks an eye if something different looking dies without our heroes first establishing if it's evil or not. But it's amoral to even touch a hair in evil humans.
Yes, spectacularly terrible worldbuilding is what it is. Especially on Angel when there were so many demons who were basically Star Trek aliens and yet whenever the protagonists fought demons they killed them without any hesitation whatsoever. But Lylah, Lindsay and the likes were off-limits because they were humans.
 

TriBel

Scooby
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Manchester
I think that pre- soul Spike isn't worthy of Buffy, he's a soulless creature and she's a human. True, Spike has feelings but his species is inferior to Buffy's species and so that's how he's treated. Like how dogs have feelings but they're treated as an inferior species to humans.

I've always thought that Anya wasn't worthy of Xander because of her voluntary time spent as a demon. It just seemed wrong to me....
"Human" is not a timeless concept (I'm ignoring more recent misuses):

“If it were not for some [divine] power that wanted the feminine sex to exist, the birth of a woman would be just another accident, such as that of other monsters [= a dog with two heads, a calf with five legs, etc.]” Thomas Aquinas C1250

"Women are not fully human and what follows as a consequence: that Christ did not suffer for them and that they will not be saved.” Treatise written in 1595
 

Athene

Scooby
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Sineya
"Human" is not a timeless concept (I'm ignoring more recent misuses):

“If it were not for some [divine] power that wanted the feminine sex to exist, the birth of a woman would be just another accident, such as that of other monsters [= a dog with two heads, a calf with five legs, etc.]” Thomas Aquinas C1250

"Women are not fully human and what follows as a consequence: that Christ did not suffer for them and that they will not be saved.” Treatise written in 1595
That last point is quite disturbing and reminds me of why I don't pay much attention to extreme religious beliefs :D
Buffy, and women in general are certainly humans to me by my, and hopefully most of the world's definition.
 

flow

Scooby
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Spike was happy soulless
Maybe you are making an assumption here that would only support your theory, if the assumption itself was true. It is an interesting question for another thread (I don`t want to shred this thread) "Was Spike happy soulless ?"

Spike felt the need to change a major part of himself, that he had no issue with before, just to be more "acceptable" to the other characters, predominately Buffy.
Let`s say you have a relationship where it is an issue, that the wet towels of Person A lie on the floor of Person B`s bathroom. Sometimes Person B will think "If I love A enough, A will see how much nicer it is to pick up wet towels and will change into the nice towel-picking person I desire and deserve. Sometimes B will think "If I have A under my thumb, I will teach A to pick up towels because not picking up towels is so beneath me.
Both lines of thinking will probably lead to an unhappy and unhealthy realtionship. It would be much better if B would pick up the towels itself (are you noticing how I try to avoid gender here ?) or stop bothering about them or just walk out of the relationship.

People should never change for someone else. And I believe they are not even capable of doing that. They can only change for themselves. And thus it is not completely impossible that A might someday learn how much nicer ist is not to walk on heaps of wet towels. And A will pick the towels up from that day on and will have become a better person and B will start bickering about the missing cap of the toothpaste tube.

Having said this, I do believe that Spike got his soul, because he felt the need to change for himself. Buffy or his love for Buffy might have inspired that, but that does not necessarily mean, she forced him to do it.

Angel kind of gets this treatment as well. Because he can't have children with Buffy or have sex with her without losing his soul (even though he could just visit the soul demon to make his soul more permanent), he believes Buffy "deserves" someone "better"
Maybe he just believes, Buffy deserves something more "normal". Buffy herself never felt or expressed that Angel was in any way inferior to her or not good enough for her and as far as Giles or Joyce did so, that might be explained by them being overprotecting parents or parental figures.

Riley's a bit of a mixed bag
Yes. You raised a lot of questions regarding Riley in your last controversial thread and I don`t want to go over all that again. But even when I was still a Riley defender, I believed that they were just not right for each other. That had nothing to do with one of them being better than the other.

The problem is Buffy lowering herself to the point of entering a relationship with a soulless being.I just don't like what it says about her and it's not enjoyable for me to watch.
To me it says, that she has supernatural strenght but she is still a human being. She is not perfect. She struggels and she fails. She despairs and she goes through dark and hard times. She experiences an emotional rollercoaster- ride and it almost destroys her. But she never stops trying. I can`t stake vampires but, hey, apart from that she is still almost like me. I like her so much more for what it says about her.

But the point still stands, he WAS let into the Scooby gang and should've been treated as such
I think that he neither was a member of the scooby gang nor wanted to be.

flow
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
What can I say? I just really like Buffy.

Is this based on gender, though? Aren't a lot of Bangel fans equally protective about Angel?
Yes - I really like Buffy and no, its not gender based because as you said I am very protective of Angel. I like them both a lot. I happen to think they are great together therefore I ship...
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Yes - I really like Buffy and no, its not gender based because as you said I am very protective of Angel. I like them both a lot. I happen to think they are great together therefore I ship...
Yes, but would you worry about Nina being "worthy" of Angel?

I would definitely say Buffy is too good for someone like Xander. That may make me a terrible person. Well, I can't remember claiming to be otherwise.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Yes, but would you worry about Nina being "worthy" of Angel?

I would definitely say Buffy is too good for someone like Xander. That may make me a terrible person. Well, I can't remember claiming to be otherwise.
Absolutely and even more controversially I would even question whether Cordelia was worthy of Angel (I know ...gasp!)
 
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WillowFromBuffy
There it is. Proof! It is not gendered. My work here is done. *flies off into the night*

DeadlyDuo

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Absolutely and even more controversially I would even question whether Cordelia was worthy of Angel (I know ...gasp!)
This is interesting now because Cordelia is often considered a popular character.

Here's a question for everybody: How would you feel if we'd gotten this exchange between Angel and Cordelia?

ANGEL: Say I did want to date. It wouldn't be you, Cordelia. It would NEVER be you. You're beneath me.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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This is interesting now because Cordelia is often considered a popular character.

Here's a question for everybody: How would you feel if we'd gotten this exchange between Angel and Cordelia?

ANGEL: Say I did want to date. It wouldn't be you, Cordelia. It would NEVER be you. You're beneath me.
Its not really comparable. Angel and Cordelia were very good friends. That would be like Buffy saying that to Xander. I would feel horrible hearing that from Buffy to Xander like I would feel horrible hearing that from Angel to Cordy.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Here's a question for everybody: How would you feel if we'd gotten this exchange between Angel and Cordelia?

ANGEL: Say I did want to date. It wouldn't be you, Cordelia. It would NEVER be you. You're beneath me.
I'd go home, get my shotgun and blow his face from his skull.

That being said, the question is rather unfair. Cordelia does not keep Angel's boxershorts and family photos in a cave. She does not try to kiss him after threatening to kill him. She did not tell him a story about how she once used the blood of a recently killed victim as an aphrodisiac.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Its not really comparable. Angel and Cordelia were very good friends. That would be like Buffy saying that to Xander. I would feel horrible hearing that from Buffy to Xander like I would feel horrible hearing that from Angel to Cordy.
That response is interesting. You're saying it would be horrible to hear Buffy say it to Xander or Angel to say it to Cordelia because they're friends. So what if they said it to someone who wasn't their friend.

BUFFY: Say I did want to date. It wouldn't be you, Jonathan. It would NEVER be you. You're beneath me.

ANGEL: Say I did want to date. It wouldn't be you, Tara. It would NEVER be you. You're beneath me.

What are your feelings now? Buffy and Jonathan aren't friends. Neither is Angel and Tara.

That being said, the question is rather unfair. Cordelia does not keep Angel's boxershorts and family photos in a cave. She does not try to kiss him after threatening to kill him. She did not tell him a story about how she once used the blood of a recently killed victim as an aphrodisiac.
We're not talking about Spike per se. The question is how would you feel if Buffy or Angel said that line to another character. If it's horrible to say that line to someone in general, then why is it okay to say it to Spike? There's ways and means of going "No I don't want to date you, leave me alone" that don't invole telling someone "you're beneath me".

Here's the bigger question (that is more on the same wavelength), what if Angel had said that line to Darla or Drusilla?
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
We're not talking about Spike per se. The question is how would you feel if Buffy or Angel said that line to another character. If it's horrible to say that line to someone in general, then why is it okay to say it to Spike? There's ways and means of going "No I don't want to date you, leave me alone" that don't invole telling someone "you're beneath me".
Buffy's words may be cruel, but she has ample reason to be both disgusted and angry with him.
Here's the bigger question (that is more on the same wavelength), what if Angel had said that line to Darla or Drusilla?
He sorta does, in Epiphany.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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That response is interesting. You're saying it would be horrible to hear Buffy say it to Xander or Angel to say it to Cordelia because they're friends. So what if they said it to someone who wasn't their friend.

BUFFY: Say I did want to date. It wouldn't be you, Jonathan. It would NEVER be you. You're beneath me.

ANGEL: Say I did want to date. It wouldn't be you, Tara. It would NEVER be you. You're beneath me.

What are your feelings now? Buffy and Jonathan aren't friends. Neither is Angel and Tara.



We're not talking about Spike per se. The question is how would you feel if Buffy or Angel said that line to another character. If it's horrible to say that line to someone in general, then why is it okay to say it to Spike? There's ways and means of going "No I don't want to date you, leave me alone" that don't invole telling someone "you're beneath me".

Here's the bigger question (that is more on the same wavelength), what if Angel had said that line to Darla or Drusilla?
If Angel said it to Darla I probably wouldn't be too bothered by it (and he kinda does although in less harsh terms) considering she was trying to seduce him so he would lose his soul and she had previously tried to kill the woman he loved. And I really can't ignore that this is, in fact about Spike because as @WillowFromBuffy says its contextual. You have to look at the dialogue through the prism of that relationship itself. If the person they are speaking to is evil and they have done evil things (i.e. Sex robots, attempted murder, trying to turn you into a vicious killer) I'm probably not too bothered by that line.
 

DeadlyDuo

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If Angel said it to Darla I probably wouldn't be too bothered by it (and he kinda does although in less harsh terms) considering she was trying to seduce him so he would lose his soul and she had previously tried to kill the woman he loved. And I really can't ignore that this is, in fact about Spike because as @WillowFromBuffy says its contextual. You have to look at the dialogue through the prism of that relationship itself. If the person they are speaking to is evil and they have done evil things (i.e. Sex robots, attempted murder, trying to turn you into a vicious killer) I'm probably not too bothered by that line.
The sebxbot hasn't happened yet when Buffy said that line.
 
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