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Question Buffy, Angel, Dawn, Conner

Mikepdf15

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I wanna know, how did Angel and also Angelus know about Dawn and do the whole Angel team know about her? And also does the whole Buffy team know about Conner besides Willow? Also how does the Scooby Gang know that Angel and his gang took over Wolfram Heart office? And do they know of the Apocalypse he started twice? Jasmine and the one at the end of his season. Do they collide with each other?
 

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Well, the Dawn one is easy; Angel was a part of the spell the monks did. He has memories of her from when he was living in Sunnydale and dating Buffy, even though he technically never met her. The monks' spell was very thorough, obviously.
 

thetopher

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I wanna know, how did Angel and also Angelus know about Dawn and do the whole Angel team know about her?
Angel knew about Dawn because he was around Sunnydale when Buffy was during S1-3, so he 'remembers' her as part of Buffy's life just like Giles and the Scoobies.
Same deal with Faith- she and Dawn recognize each other- and no doubt Cordelia as well if she'd actually been 'herself' at this point.

And also does the whole Buffy team know about Conner besides Willow?
Only if Willow or Faith decided to tell them. It's unclear if Connor being given a new life by W&H effected their memories at all- but then the spell was broken in S5 anyway.
Willow meets up with Connor again in the comics and Xander mentions him whilst talking to Angel in S10.

Also how does the Scooby Gang know that Angel and his gang took over Wolfram Heart office?
According to Andrew in 'Damage' they do and weren't particularly happy about it.
Though its debatable how many of the Scoobies agreed with Andrew's 'nobody trusts you guys' statement, maybe they were just busy doing their own thing at this point; searching for slayers and setting up a new council or whatever.

And do they know of the Apocalypse he started twice? Jasmine and the one at the end of his season.
It's doubtful they knew about Jasmine, since Sunnydale was pretty isolated from the world by this time- people fleeing and the power grid going out all over.
The timeline is a bit hazy though, what if some potential was watching the local news and saw Jasmine in LA?
Since that never happened we can only assume ignorance about 'almost world peace'.

I don't think they knew about the 'Battle Of Black Thorn' at the end of S5 either since none of the Scoobies showed up to help. I mean, even if you don't 'trust somebody' you might wanna help them beat back the forces of darkness.
Hell, if you disregard the comics, maybe they did; bailed out Angel and co and came to the rescue. :)
 
RomanticSoul
RomanticSoul
I'd like to think Faith rode in on her black horse and helped Team Angel battle that army.

Mikepdf15

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Angel knew about Dawn because he was around Sunnydale when Buffy was during S1-3, so he 'remembers' her as part of Buffy's life just like Giles and the Scoobies.
Same deal with Faith- she and Dawn recognize each other- and no doubt Cordelia as well if she'd actually been 'herself' at this point.



Only if Willow or Faith decided to tell them. It's unclear if Connor being given a new life by W&H effected their memories at all- but then the spell was broken in S5 anyway.
Willow meets up with Connor again in the comics and Xander mentions him whilst talking to Angel in S10.



According to Andrew in 'Damage' they do and weren't particularly happy about it.
Though its debatable how many of the Scoobies agreed with Andrew's 'nobody trusts you guys' statement, maybe they were just busy doing their own thing at this point; searching for slayers and setting up a new council or whatever.



It's doubtful they knew about Jasmine, since Sunnydale was pretty isolated from the world by this time- people fleeing and the power grid going out all over.
The timeline is a bit hazy though, what if some potential was watching the local news and saw Jasmine in LA?
Since that never happened we can only assume ignorance about 'almost world peace'.

I don't think they knew about the 'Battle Of Black Thorn' at the end of S5 either since none of the Scoobies showed up to help. I mean, even if you don't 'trust somebody' you might wanna help them beat back the forces of darkness.
Hell, if you disregard the comics, maybe they did; bailed out Angel and co and came to the rescue. :)
Angel knew about Dawn because he was around Sunnydale when Buffy was during S1-3, so he 'remembers' her as part of Buffy's life just like Giles and the Scoobies.
Same deal with Faith- she and Dawn recognize each other- and no doubt Cordelia as well if she'd actually been 'herself' at this point.



Only if Willow or Faith decided to tell them. It's unclear if Connor being given a new life by W&H effected their memories at all- but then the spell was broken in S5 anyway.
Willow meets up with Connor again in the comics and Xander mentions him whilst talking to Angel in S10.



According to Andrew in 'Damage' they do and weren't particularly happy about it.
Though its debatable how many of the Scoobies agreed with Andrew's 'nobody trusts you guys' statement, maybe they were just busy doing their own thing at this point; searching for slayers and setting up a new council or whatever.



It's doubtful they knew about Jasmine, since Sunnydale was pretty isolated from the world by this time- people fleeing and the power grid going out all over.
The timeline is a bit hazy though, what if some potential was watching the local news and saw Jasmine in LA?
Since that never happened we can only assume ignorance about 'almost world peace'.

I don't think they knew about the 'Battle Of Black Thorn' at the end of S5 either since none of the Scoobies showed up to help. I mean, even if you don't 'trust somebody' you might wanna help them beat back the forces of darkness.
Hell, if you disregard the comics, maybe they did; bailed out Angel and co and came to the rescue. :)
That would mean Drusilla and Darla knew about her too then.
 

thetopher

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That would mean Drusilla and Darla knew about her too then.
That's an interesting thought; Darla may have remembered Dawn from way back in S1- in 'Angel' she entered Buffy's house and attacked Joyce. So I guess it's possible she 'remembers' seeing a confused/scared little 10 yr old Dawn.
Still, Darla has bigger things to deal with; like being newly human again, then vamped, and messing with Angel's head.

As for Drusilla, given that she's both crazy and has psychic powers I'm guessing she would see a 'green mystic shiny key' if she ever laid eyes on Dawn. I can't remember if she was ever around the Summers house in S2 though...
 

RomanticSoul

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As for Drusilla, given that she's both crazy and has psychic powers I'm guessing she would see a 'green mystic shiny key' if she ever laid eyes on Dawn. I can't remember if she was ever around the Summers house in S2 though...
She was around the house in B,B & B, just couldn't get in. Which btw in the Dawnverse would be a good thing. Already too much ick going on in the house with both Joyce and Dawn trying to climb aboard Xander. That's disturbing enough IMO, no need to get even weirder by having Dru in the house as well.
 

thetopher

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She was around the house in B,B & B, just couldn't get in. Which btw in the Dawnverse would be a good thing. Already too much ick going on in the house with both Joyce and Dawn trying to climb aboard Xander.
Oh...god that's a horrible image.
However, I'm sure 11 year old Dawn would be in bed/in her room at that time of night and not even see Xander.
Whew, okay, now I feel better. Image averted. :)
 

RomanticSoul

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Oh...god that's a horrible image.
However, I'm sure 11 year old Dawn would be in bed/in her room at that time of night and not even see Xander.
Whew, okay, now I feel better. Image averted. :)
I know it's disturbing but it wasn't that late, Xander and Cordy ran from school in daylight and it was dark when they reached Buffy's house. So early evening is my guess. Plus once the house was overrun with the female population of Sunnydale, I doubt Dawnie would stay asleep.
 

thetopher

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I know it's disturbing but it wasn't that late, Xander and Cordy ran from school in daylight and it was dark when they reached Buffy's house. So early evening is my guess.
Err...then Dawn was in her room doing her homework, or writing in her diary. Upstairs. Alone.
Or...Remember how protected/immature she was even when she was 14, maybe Joyce had just put her down for a nap...

I just... 11 year old Dawn being a victim (even unintentionally) of a love spell is freaky and would make the aftermath way worse for Xander (Buffy bopping him on the nose for one!).

Plus once the house was overrun with the female population of Sunnydale, I doubt Dawnie would stay asleep.
That's true but by that point weren't Xander and Cordelia down in the basement trying to barricade the door?
I see little Dawn just coming around in the aftermath and being really puzzled or excited. 'Can I be in the scavenge hunt?'


Anyway, this is way ot; I do like the idea of Drusilla knowing that Dawn is the Key- a nice plot that was never explored on the show or in the comics.
 

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thetopher
thetopher
Like when he spoke he 'true name'? Not exactly 'started' but 'made more violent?' :)
crazysoulless
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Maybe as a domino effect 1) he slept with Darla 2) Connor was born 3) Connor slept with Jasdelia 4) Jasmine was born

RomanticSoul

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Err...then Dawn was in her room doing her homework, or writing in her diary. Upstairs. Alone.
Or...Remember how protected/immature she was even when she was 14, maybe Joyce had just put her down for a nap...

I just... 11 year old Dawn being a victim (even unintentionally) of a love spell is freaky and would make the aftermath way worse for Xander (Buffy bopping him on the nose for one!).
The price you pay for the Dawn rewritten universe. It will include uncomfortable things like this.

Wait is this a typo? How did Angel start the Jasmine apocalypse?
By banging Darla? By being the unwilling victim of being brought back from hell? *shrugs*
 

Grace

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The price you pay for the Dawn rewritten universe. It will include uncomfortable things like this.
Since I don't think Xander was attracted to 11-year-old Dawn, I don't think she would be affected by the spell. It was cast on Xander's "beloved," which for Xander was all women. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
 

thrasherpix

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They could've brought up Dawn's reaction to the spell in BBB in season 7 Him ("this is a love spell, remember how you saw Xander when he cast that bad spell?"). Did the writers not think we were going to notice all the retconning anyway? They went nuts with the retcons, and don't mind disturbing people if the suits let the writers get away with it, so should've at least had some fun with it! (ETA: 'course it would've sparked all sorts of pervy fanfics...though knowing the nature of fanfic, I'm sure it already exists somewhere!)

I know somewhere in the comics it shows Dawn as being grabbed by Angelus instead of Willow (as it flashes back to season 2). I'd say that begs the question of what protected Dawn was doing there, but I know better than to expect consistency, especially after season 5, and triply so once the comics begin.



That aside, random thought: in Lie to Me, Ford knew more than he should, and his brain was liquefying due to cancers. I think it would be an interesting fanfic for how Ford was once a lot more involved, but all the spells going about wiping memories and even reordering reality finally had an unexpected effect on him so that his brain was liquifying, and that this made him aware of the "baseline reality" (much like how the insane could see Dawn for what she was in season 5). He adapted. So who was he in the original baseline reality and why was he "written out" by magic? Was it by Willow, or someone else?

I'll be starting my rewatch of season 2 soon and I hope to remember to pay attention to that episode with this thought in mind, because that's the kind of geek I am. :p
 
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RomanticSoul

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Since I don't think Xander was attracted to 11-year-old Dawn, I don't think she would be affected by the spell. It was cast on Xander's "beloved," which for Xander was all women. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
It affected the entire female population of Sunnydale except the one the spell was intended for (Cordelia). The only reason why we didn't see anyone younger than 15/16 was because that probably would have been too sick back then in the early years. Standard and Practices would have had a freak out.

They could've brought up Dawn's reaction to the spell in BBB in season 7 Him ("this is a love spell, remember how you saw Xander when he cast that bad spell?"). Did the writers not think we were going to notice all the retconning anyway? They went nuts with the retcons, and don't mind disturbing people if the suits let the writers get away with it, so should've at least had some fun with it! (ETA: 'course it would've sparked all sorts of pervy fanfics...though knowing the nature of fanfic, I'm sure it already exists somewhere!)
IKR. If you rewrite the whole damn show to fit in one new character, at least run with it and have fun. If you don't do it enough it will just annoy people when you act like everything before happened as it originally did when we know it didn't for the characters. Or when you just do it to get a ship going. *cough*Spuffy*cough*

I know somewhere in the comics it shows Dawn as being grabbed by Angelus instead of Willow (as it flashes back to season 2). I'd say that begs the question of what protected Dawn was doing there, but I know better than to expect consistency, especially after season 5, and triply so once the comics begin.
Didn't she also save Buffy from drowning after the Master killed her? I mean she pulled Buffy out of the water and Xander was still the one who did CPR but Dawn got the credit for the save.
 

Grace

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I know somewhere in the comics it shows Dawn as being grabbed by Angelus instead of Willow (as it flashes back to season 2). I'd say that begs the question of what protected Dawn was doing there, but I know better than to expect consistency, especially after season 5, and triply so once the comics begin.
Didn't she also save Buffy from drowning after the Master killed her? I mean she pulled Buffy out of the water and Xander was still the one who did CPR but Dawn got the credit for the save.
I happen to be reading this right now. These are both from False Memories, one of the Buffy Classics. Not canon.
 

RomanticSoul

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I happen to be reading this right now. These are both from False Memories, one of the Buffy Classics. Not canon.
Canon or not doesn't matter to me. What matters is the implication. If I remember correctly these comics ran concurrently with S5 right? So at the time we were clearly supposed to understand that there were some huge differences in previous events where Dawn took the place in the story of another character who previously played that part. And that's a big issue for me. Again, we are who we are because of what we have experienced. Those experiences shape who we become. You change those, you change people. Simple really.
 

Mikepdf15

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Since we really didn't get to see it what do you guys think would of been the relationship between Dawn and Angel? And i haven't got into the comics yet, so do they mention it?. Also in the comics does Buffy or any of them ever meet or hear anything about Conner? You know besides Faith, Spike, Willow and Xander.
 

Mrs Gordo

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S10 Old Demons, Dawn and Angel finally meet for real but Dawn remembers him from her artificial memories. So they had a relationship. We don’t know what kind. I happen to think that Angel and Dawnhabe a lot in common. Both are kinda dorky and like to read and can read different languages. I can see them having a nice sibling relationship.

And to your Connor question. There are no interactions with Connor outside of Willow and Faith. Buffy has never specifically acknowledged that she knows Angel has a son.
 

FaithLehane16

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It pisses me off when in the shows, Connor hears about Buffy, but Buffy never seems to hear about Connor. I would think the writers would've taken that into consideration considering Buffy had a huge impact on Angel's life and would never stop loving him.
 

Mikepdf15

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It seems as well besides maybe Willow and Faith, Spike since how new about everything even about Jasmine etc with out being there. How did that work, just writing maybe?
 
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