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Buffy as Abuser/Spike as Victim

SpikeRocks

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The Buffy/Spike relationship is SO incredibly layered and complex, and it’s at its most complex in S6. Everyone has strong feelings about it, naturally, and everyone responds to a different “frequency” in the storytelling. (BTW, no one’s wrong in how they interpret the story….I think everyone’s right, everyone’s just responding to certain frequencies more strongly based on their unique perspectives.)

Some people find Spike’s almost-predatory manipulations on a vulnerable and depressed Buffy, as the frequency that stands out to them most. When they watch the season, Buffy is the victim and Spike is the abuser.

For me, the frequency that hits me hardest/loudest, is Buffy’s treatment/domestic abuse of Spike. It also tends to be one of the most under-talked about and swept-away plots, eclipsed by all the other horrific things going on in the season, and most certainly eclipsed by the AR for most people. The AR scene is problematic and wrong on so many writing/storytelling (and of course, literal) levels, so I’d like to leave it out of this discussion (it’s been discussed enough, I think lol 😜).....though it would be interesting to approach Spike’s state in that moment through the psychology of a victim interacting with his abuser.

I think we all understand the place Buffy is in during S6….her depression, her struggle, the worse parts of the human experience that have a hold of her, how she’s projecting and hurting herself……and yes, that explains everything she’s doing and how she’s behaving. But it doesn’t excuse it. There are ramifications. It’s impacting and shaping this other character. Spike plays his toxic part, but Buffy holds (IMO) the largest responsibility in creating unhealthy patterns of behavior and communication between them, and she forces him into a role that he doesn’t want. Sooooo, I kind of want to talk from Spike’s perspective and experience in the relationship.

Buffy as Domestic Abuser:

*She uses him as a sex-toy (for escapism), and as a verbal/physical punching-bag (for venting her issues).

*She denies his person-hood in a weaponized way (“you’re a monster, you’re a thing, you don’t have real feelings, you’re just convenient” etc), repeatedly and in intimate moments.

*When he tries to talk/communicate, she responds by physically or verbally abusing him.

*She exploits his feelings for her, from start to finish, to serve her needs.

*She threatens to kill him if he tells anyone of their relationship, and hides their involvement when others are around. This attitude continues after she’s ended it.

*She ignores his boundaries and assaults him at her will.

*She continually “changes the rules” of their relationship, and plays emotional and mental games/manipulates..

*She takes no accountability for any of the above during their involvement.

None of this is in a vacuum, of course. It can’t be. It’s mutually toxic. Spike’s contributing as well. But like I said, that “frequency” doesn’t hit me nearly as hard as Buffy’s abuse when I watch. Don’t know why that is! That’s just me 😇

What are people’s thoughts on the domestic abuse (Buffy as abuser/Spike as victim) narrative BEFORE SEEING RED? How does it factor into your understanding of Spike’s actions/reactions and behaviors (his overall psychology) in the relationship? Maybe you don’t see Spike as being victimized at all? Maybe you don’t consider Buffy’s actions/treatment of Spike as any worse than how he treats her? I think the conversation get's even more interesting when considering Buffy holds the only conscience and soul between them.

Aaaaaaaand GO!
 
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Dora

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So a serious mentally ill person is responsible for there actions , Mmmmmm
You miss the whole point , if Spike felt he was being used he could leave , Buffy cant , Buffy has responsibility ,Spike has not , he could just up leave , at least he could avoid Buffy instead of stalking her, he could say no , he doesn't have to have sex with Buffy .The whole AR was A twisted Marti Noxon event when she thought if she could force herself on her boyfriend they would not break up but her boyfriend said no , Spike at any time could just say no
Buffy was using Spike for self harming it was the most degrading thing she could do to punish herself to feel something other than the emptiness inside , Buffy apologises to Spike , said she was using him ,
Spike on the other hand was 100% a sexual abuser , Buffy confided with him , told him her problems , he knew her life was crap , he knew she had come back wrong , he took full advantage of it , he was able to manipulate Buffy into having sex, Buffy says..... why do I keep letting him in ? why do I let him do those things to me , a sure sign of abuse as Buffy does not understand why she does not stop him ? The AR if not a rape , Spike was acting no differently than we had seen many times before , not listening to when Buffy said no , in the balcony scene Spike says stop me , in seeing red she finally did
 

katmobile

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I think that it's a mutually abusive relationship between two people who are both mentally unwell or abnormal. I do however understand those who just see Spike's abuse because it's triggered by their own.
 

Taake

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I agree that it is a abusive relationship because both of them behave in very toxic ways. Though I have more empathy for Buffy, considering everything, her behavior is problematic and I’ve met plenty of people in real life who use their own state of mental unhealth as an excuse to treat others poorly/terribly. It is to her credit that she puts a stop to it, but that doesn’t change her past actions. Spuffy in s6 is an emotional mess but it takes two to tango. They’re both responsible for their own actions and in many ways it is a tragedy what goes on between them and where it ends up in the season.

But I think it is a pattern of behavior (if less violent) that many can identify with for a reason. Relationships are complex and Buffy definitely has a part in what transpires in that early Spuffy dynamic.

I feel for her, but that doesn’t make her blameless.
I understand her, but that doesn’t mean I approve of her actions/treatment of Spike. If anything it shows us how far into her misery Buffy has sunk.

Obviously, the AR is on Spike, Buffy isn’t to blame for his actions. But she was a mess that season and that reflects in their relationship. She needed and outlet and an anchor to get by, again understandable, but that doesn’t excuse some of the behavior mentioned in the OP.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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I don't think this side to it is under-examined at all. I think it is over-examined.

Spike manages to pull Buffy kicking and screaming into a relationship and then he is bummed out that there isn't enough pillow talk. Though break indeed.

There is one important difference in Buffy and Spike's bad behaviour towards the other. Spike's abuse of Buffy is always intended to make her stay with him and to make it harder for her to leave. Buffy's abuse of Spike is always meant to push him away. If Spike doesn't like the relationship he has spent an entire year abusing Buffy to get into, then he can leave. Buffy doesn't do anything to make it harder for Spike to leave her. In fact, she keeps telling her that the relationship needs to end, something he is never able to accept, so he keeps pushing until she takes him back again for a while and then complains that she doesn't surrender to him completely, heart and soul.
 

katmobile

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I don't think this side to it is under-examined at all. I think it is over-examined.

Spike manages to pull Buffy kicking and screaming into a relationship and then he is bummed out that there isn't enough pillow talk. Though break indeed.

There is one important difference in Buffy and Spike's bad behaviour towards the other. Spike's abuse of Buffy is always intended to make her stay with him and to make it harder for her to leave. Buffy's abuse of Spike is always meant to push him away. If Spike doesn't like the relationship he has spent an entire year abusing Buffy to get into, then he can leave. Buffy doesn't do anything to make it harder for Spike to leave her. In fact, she keeps telling her that the relationship needs to end, something he is never able to accept, so he keeps pushing until she takes him back again for a while and then complains that she doesn't surrender to him completely, heart and soul.
She sends him some very mixed signals and the abuse doesn't start until she intiates it. He's creepy but the Crush incident aside not abusive in season five and actually helpful in Invention and at least well intentioned in Forever. I agree he's not blameless but Buffy isn't entirely either - she's compelled not by Spike but herself and I'd regard more as deliberate self harm as some people suffering depression do. However Spike isn't a needle or a knife unlike them he has agency but he also has feelings.
 

Athene

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I just can't put a lot of stock into Buffy's 'choices' during this season considering that she is clearly mentally unwell in my eyes. I mean in most victim/abuser situations you could technically say that the victim made 'choices' but in reality they probably weren't valid choices because maybe the victim is underage or mentally unwell. Saying that it's not like I expected Spike to be the bigger person and say no to Buffy considering he has no soul but that doesn't change the fact that Buffy's a victim.
 
S
SpikeRocks
She certainly is, and I think we've all been there and it's why we can empathize. But every domestic abuser's actions are ruled by their personal demons and mental illnesses. Nonetheless, they're accountable for their actions.

AstridDante

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The Buffy/Spike relationship is SO incredibly layered and complex, and it’s at its most complex in S6. Everyone has strong feelings about it, naturally, and everyone responds to a different “frequency” in the storytelling. (BTW, no one’s wrong in how they interpret the story….I think everyone’s right, everyone’s just responding to certain frequencies more strongly based on their unique perspectives.)

Some people find Spike’s almost-predatory manipulations on a vulnerable and depressed Buffy, as the frequency that stands out to them most. When they watch the season, Buffy is the victim and Spike is the abuser.

For me, the frequency that hits me hardest/loudest, is Buffy’s treatment/domestic abuse of Spike. It also tends to be one of the most under-talked about and swept-away plots, eclipsed by all the other horrific things going on in the season, and most certainly eclipsed by the AR for most people. The AR scene is problematic and wrong on so many writing/storytelling (and of course, literal) levels, so I’d like to leave it out of this discussion (it’s been discussed enough, I think lol 😜).....though it would be interesting to approach Spike’s state in that moment through the psychology of a victim interacting with his abuser.

I think we all understand the place Buffy is in during S6….her depression, her struggle, the worse parts of the human experience that have a hold of her, how she’s projecting and hurting herself……and yes, that explains everything she’s doing and how she’s behaving. But it doesn’t excuse it. There are ramifications. It’s impacting and shaping this other character. Spike plays his toxic part, but Buffy holds (IMO) the largest responsibility in creating unhealthy patterns of behavior and communication between them, and she forces him into a role that he doesn’t want. Sooooo, I kind of want to talk from Spike’s perspective and experience in the relationship.

Buffy as Domestic Abuser:

*She uses him as a sex-toy (for escapism), and as a verbal/physical punching-bag (for venting her issues).

*She denies his person-hood in a weaponized way (“you’re a monster, you’re a thing, you don’t have real feelings, you’re just convenient” etc), repeatedly and in intimate moments.

*When he tries to talk/communicate, she responds by physically or verbally abusing him.

*She exploits his feelings for her, from start to finish, to serve her needs.

*She threatens to kill him if he tells anyone of their relationship, and hides their involvement when others are around. This attitude continues after she’s ended it.

*She ignores his boundaries and assaults him at her will.

*She continually “changes the rules” of their relationship, and plays emotional and mental games/manipulates..

*She takes no accountability for any of the above during their involvement.

None of this is in a vacuum, of course. It can’t be. It’s mutually toxic. Spike’s contributing as well. But like I said, that “frequency” doesn’t hit me nearly as hard as Buffy’s abuse when I watch. Don’t know why that is! That’s just me 😇

What are people’s thoughts on the domestic abuse (Buffy as abuser/Spike as victim) narrative BEFORE SEEING RED? How does it factor into your understanding of Spike’s actions/reactions and behaviors (his overall psychology) in the relationship? Maybe you don’t see Spike as being victimized at all? Maybe you don’t consider Buffy’s actions/treatment of Spike as any worse than how he treats her? I think the conversation get's even more interesting when considering Buffy holds the only conscience and soul between them.

Aaaaaaaand GO!
Some very interesting points here, especially that between them she is the only one with a soul but she is the one oftentimes behaving like a monster. I think like you say it is very layered and complex. A lot of the anger she takes out on Spike is aimed at herself particularly the ‘alley’ scene. I think it is very much bad decision making on her part and sex with Spike is her addiction which while initially she felt she was in control of but ultimately started to take her over. As far as boundaries in the relationship there were none and Spike defefinitely pushed her boundaries. Spike for his part loved her in the only way he understood love at this point so he was prepared to be used or treated badly to keep the ‘relationship’ going.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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She sends him some very mixed signals
She sends him mixed signals? THE GALL!
He's creepy but the Crush incident aside not abusive in season five and actually helpful in Invention and at least well intentioned in Forever.
He abducts her, ties her up, threatens to have her murdered, shows up at her house with a shot gun to blow her brains out, spies on her, breaks into her house, steals underwear, clothes and pictures, dresses his girlfriend up in her stoles clothes, makes a sex doll that is so uncannily similar to her that no one that sees her having sex with it in public can tell the difference, breaks into her bedroom while she is sleeping...

Creepy isn't a fitting word.
 
S
SpikeRocks
I'm sure there's other threads for Spike-bashing or Spuffy-bashing, but that's not really the level of discussion I'm aiming for here lol ;)

AstridDante

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She sends him mixed signals? THE GALL!

He abducts her, ties her up, threatens to have her murdered, shows up at her house with a shot gun to blow her brains out, spies on her, breaks into her house, steals underwear, clothes and pictures, dresses his girlfriend up in her stoles clothes, makes a sex doll that is so uncannily similar to her that no one that sees her having sex with it in public can tell the difference, breaks into her bedroom while she is sleeping...

Creepy isn't a fitting word.
Yes some of his actions were obsessive and dubious to say the least but you have to put this in context that he was a soulless vampire and societal norms and the undead don’t go hand in hand. The robot was more sad than anything else. He was aching for that connection with the girl he loves. I think it sets up the plot that was to follow really well. You can’t look at these things in a vaccum. He nearly died at hand of Glory to protect the real Buffy from suffering any pain resulting in the intervention kiss. While it is right to call out his shady behavior I think you have to look as a whole.
 

burrunjor

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The Buffy/Spike relationship is SO incredibly layered and complex, and it’s at its most complex in S6. Everyone has strong feelings about it, naturally, and everyone responds to a different “frequency” in the storytelling. (BTW, no one’s wrong in how they interpret the story….I think everyone’s right, everyone’s just responding to certain frequencies more strongly based on their unique perspectives.)

Some people find Spike’s almost-predatory manipulations on a vulnerable and depressed Buffy, as the frequency that stands out to them most. When they watch the season, Buffy is the victim and Spike is the abuser.

For me, the frequency that hits me hardest/loudest, is Buffy’s treatment/domestic abuse of Spike. It also tends to be one of the most under-talked about and swept-away plots, eclipsed by all the other horrific things going on in the season, and most certainly eclipsed by the AR for most people. The AR scene is problematic and wrong on so many writing/storytelling (and of course, literal) levels, so I’d like to leave it out of this discussion (it’s been discussed enough, I think lol 😜).....though it would be interesting to approach Spike’s state in that moment through the psychology of a victim interacting with his abuser.

I think we all understand the place Buffy is in during S6….her depression, her struggle, the worse parts of the human experience that have a hold of her, how she’s projecting and hurting herself……and yes, that explains everything she’s doing and how she’s behaving. But it doesn’t excuse it. There are ramifications. It’s impacting and shaping this other character. Spike plays his toxic part, but Buffy holds (IMO) the largest responsibility in creating unhealthy patterns of behavior and communication between them, and she forces him into a role that he doesn’t want. Sooooo, I kind of want to talk from Spike’s perspective and experience in the relationship.

Buffy as Domestic Abuser:

*She uses him as a sex-toy (for escapism), and as a verbal/physical punching-bag (for venting her issues).

*She denies his person-hood in a weaponized way (“you’re a monster, you’re a thing, you don’t have real feelings, you’re just convenient” etc), repeatedly and in intimate moments.

*When he tries to talk/communicate, she responds by physically or verbally abusing him.

*She exploits his feelings for her, from start to finish, to serve her needs.

*She threatens to kill him if he tells anyone of their relationship, and hides their involvement when others are around. This attitude continues after she’s ended it.

*She ignores his boundaries and assaults him at her will.

*She continually “changes the rules” of their relationship, and plays emotional and mental games/manipulates..

*She takes no accountability for any of the above during their involvement.

None of this is in a vacuum, of course. It can’t be. It’s mutually toxic. Spike’s contributing as well. But like I said, that “frequency” doesn’t hit me nearly as hard as Buffy’s abuse when I watch. Don’t know why that is! That’s just me 😇

What are people’s thoughts on the domestic abuse (Buffy as abuser/Spike as victim) narrative BEFORE SEEING RED? How does it factor into your understanding of Spike’s actions/reactions and behaviors (his overall psychology) in the relationship? Maybe you don’t see Spike as being victimized at all? Maybe you don’t consider Buffy’s actions/treatment of Spike as any worse than how he treats her? I think the conversation get's even more interesting when considering Buffy holds the only conscience and soul between them.

Aaaaaaaand GO!
I agree Buffy is abusive towards Spike. There are no two ways about it. She punches him into a bloody mess at the end of Dead Things. The fact that he goes back to her at all after that is unbelievable.

I don't think Spike ever abused her in their romantic relationship before the AR. He hit her, but it was only hitting her back.

That said, Spike IS an evil soulless thing. He tortured and raped people for over 100 years, he abducted and tortured Angel, TWICE and Buffy knew about it both times, he killed people in front of her. Her treating him in an appalling way isn't the same as her abusing Riley, or even post Soul Spike. By that logic you could call Buffy a murderer for killing regular Vamps. They are evil, bloodthirsty monsters who are dangerous to everything around them.

Spike despite how much we like him is really no different. Even as late as series 6, when he thinks the chip is not working, what's the first thing he does? Tell Buffy about it, try and find a way to control himself? Nope he lies to her, and instantly goes off to try and rip some poor woman's throat out. (The fact that happens after his bullshit "a man can change" speech I think only reinforces that.)

The really bad thing Buffy does is sleep with Spike in the first place, but to be fair all of these things are adressed in the story itself.
 

AngelBuffy

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its a split.

some episodes shows buffy as the abuser and spike the victim, other episodes does it in reverse.

by the way, i dont find the relationship all that layered and complex. it was pretty simple. i find angel and buffy more layered and organically complicated because it was well thought out and original and because Angelus/Angel story arc is the best written arc of the buffyverse.

i have seen buffy/spike story arc many times, they exist in moslty every teen show. the bad boy and the good girl who start of hating each other, find themeselves secretly making out and having sex and in the end, admit they have feelings. its the most cliche love story arc.
 
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S
SpikeRocks
Not on-topic, but thanks for the input lol ;)

SpikeRocks

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So a serious mentally ill person is responsible for there actions , Mmmmmm
You miss the whole point , if Spike felt he was being used he could leave , Buffy cant , Buffy has responsibility ,Spike has not , he could just up leave , at least he could avoid Buffy instead of stalking her, he could say no , he doesn't have to have sex with Buffy .The whole AR was A twisted Marti Noxon event when she thought if she could force herself on her boyfriend they would not break up but her boyfriend said no , Spike at any time could just say no
Buffy was using Spike for self harming it was the most degrading thing she could do to punish herself to feel something other than the emptiness inside , Buffy apologises to Spike , said she was using him ,
Spike on the other hand was 100% a sexual abuser , Buffy confided with him , told him her problems , he knew her life was crap , he knew she had come back wrong , he took full advantage of it , he was able to manipulate Buffy into having sex, Buffy says..... why do I keep letting him in ? why do I let him do those things to me , a sure sign of abuse as Buffy does not understand why she does not stop him ? The AR if not a rape , Spike was acting no differently than we had seen many times before , not listening to when Buffy said no , in the balcony scene Spike says stop me , in seeing red she finally did
I think you've missed that the audience is going to respond more strongly/less strongly to the different "frequencies" in the storytelling, because each person views from their unique perspective. It's what's so great about characters and story that are written with such layers and complexity. I respect the frequency/interpretation that stands out most to you in the story, it's part of what I asked for 😉
 

SpikeRocks

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I don't think this side to it is under-examined at all. I think it is over-examined.
I have to disagree there....I can't recall any/much discussion ever concerning Spike's experience and psychology in the relationship from his position as a battered partner. Spike's abuse is only brought up as a part of Buffy's story, in service to illustrate Buffy's depression/self-hatred. Buffy's experience and struggle in S6 is discussed to death (rightfully so, she's the heroine and the main character we're following and meant to empathize with), but a character study that focuses on Spike's perspective and experience, independent of Buffy's, is never something I've encountered. It'd be a nice change of pace for discussion.

There is one important difference in Buffy and Spike's bad behaviour towards the other. Spike's abuse of Buffy is always intended to make her stay with him and to make it harder for her to leave. Buffy's abuse of Spike is always meant to push him away. If Spike doesn't like the relationship he has spent an entire year abusing Buffy to get into, then he can leave. Buffy doesn't do anything to make it harder for Spike to leave her. In fact, she keeps telling her that the relationship needs to end, something he is never able to accept, so he keeps pushing until she takes him back again for a while and then complains that she doesn't surrender to him completely, heart and soul.
That's an interpretation I'm sure others share.....but not quite valid for the topic I've posted 😉 I think I made clear that getting into a debate about the push/pull of their mutually toxic relationship and who's worse is not what I'm asking, nor the rabbit-hole I want this topic to devolve into. I'm sure that's been done to death as well lol.

You have triggered another layer to this that I've always found interesting: Culpability.

In one respect, Buffy and Spike are both entirely culpable for their choices/actions/behaviors. Because everyone is. Even if someone's poor choices and behaviors can be explained and framed by mental illness (depression, addiction, etc.). I'm sure many do indeed excuse Buffy because of the depression she's struggling through (we're empathizing), but that's merely an explanation of why, not an excuse nor an exemption from her actions. I admit, it bothers me when people excuse her and give no weight to her unconscionable treatment of another character she innately has power over (physically and emotionally). Similarly, Willow abuses and violates Tara while in the thralls of her addiction.....we understand this, but we don't dismiss or excuse what she did and how heinous it was to Tara. Every domestic abuser's actions are ruled by their personal demons and mental illnesses. Nonetheless, they're accountable for the damage they cause.

In another respect, we learn in Never Leave Me, that Spike, in his soulless state, was literally unable to comprehend what Buffy was going through in S6, and her motivations in the relationship with him. His soulless/inhuman interpretation and approach was entirely wrong, and he was unable to see why. Conversely, Buffy was much more aware and self-aware during the relationship: knowing what it was, what she was doing, and why she was participating in it (convo with Tara at the end of Dead Things). It was complicated and confusing for her, no doubt, and she eventually had to come to terms that she can't excuse herself anymore by thinking she "came back wrong". But because of her soul and her humanity, her understanding and awareness far outweighs Spike's in the relationship. And regardless, she does choose to continue abusing and using (though not for much longer).

So, culpability: Spike has no soul, no conscience, and no moral compass (at best, his moral compass is based on Buffy's lead, and has been for quite some time now. And with Buffy's current mental state and behavior, that's going to add to the reciprocal toxicity of the relationship). Soul-having Spike explains in S7, that he didn't understand her in S6, and didn't understand her self-hatred because by being without a soul/humanity, he wasn't able to. He wasn't able to have that kind of insight into her motivations for coming to him, making his entire approach to the relationship and understanding of it completely wrong (which as an audience, we knew, but he didn't). By contrast, Buffy's participation and abuse in the relationship held much more awareness. Do people find that this matters to them when they reflect on the Buffy/Spike relationship?
 
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D
Dora
Spike does not care or comprehend what Buffy is going through , and he wants sex with the slayer and he is getting it ,he is a demon a sort of animal why would he care ?

The Bronze

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I find it very hard to be invested in the Buffy as an abuser angle. I think because the bottom line is her treatment of Spike is well above the level which should have been afforded to a soulless vampire i.e. staking.

Similarly I'll never really understand the surprise and knots people will tie themselves in to explain Spikes behaviour. He's a soulless vampire, he's done worse.
 
S
SpikeRocks
Not untrue :) But very complicated by the fact that, for a long while now, she's treated him more as "people/person" than as "soulless/non-person". He's filled roles for her from ally, friend, confidant, etc., in his arc from Intervention thru OMWF.

Taake

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, Buffy's participation and abuse in the relationship held much more awareness. Do people find that this matters to them when they reflect on the Buffy/Spike relationship?


I’m not sure if it matters to me, but maybe yes. But due to her mental state, I don’t think Buffy is entirely aware/has more insight. Maybe a degree more than Spike, granted, but I think her awareness is very clouded at the time and that it is only in hindsight that she has the actual awareness to see her own part in it, own up to her behavior (without making apologies for Spike) because it is the only thing you can do to move on.

At the end of s6, like around Anya’s wedding, I think we can see that it is not really about blame for Buffy, it doesn’t fully matter who did exactly what, because she willingly engaged in it and probably did many things she later regretted.

(To reiterate the OP this is obviously before the AR)

Spuffy is not my cup of tea, *a 1000 Spuffy members nod their heads enthusiastically*, but just like I find Faith ”problematic” (as does Buffy) when she goes all extra curricular with the violence against demons sometimes, the relationship is murky and complex dynamic where neither party comes out smelling like roses.

I find it very hard to be invested in the Buffy as an abuser angle. I think because the bottom line is her treatment of Spike is well above the level which should have been afforded to a soulless vampire i.e. staking.
She’s not staking him though. She’s using him as her personal Spike-bot and punching bag in one. If it is morally wrong to kill Spike because of the chip (by Buffy’s and the show’s logic), doesn’t that mean it is wrong to do everything but stake him in terms of violence. If he technically should be staked, and could be, except they decided that would be wrong does that not apply to any other areas of behavior?

I’m not saying they have to love Spike or be kind or anything, but again, if they’ve deemed it immoral to kill him, hasn’t the show already elevated him above the level of soulless vampire?
 
S
SpikeRocks
I totally agree, I think Buffy feels guilt but I don't think she places blame in the relationship; she understood her part/his part.......fans on the other hand, lol.....

WillowFromBuffy

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Age
32
I think I made clear that getting into a debate about the push/pull of their mutually toxic relationship and who's worse is not what I'm asking, nor the rabbit-hole I want this topic to devolve into. I'm sure that's been done to death as well lol.
No, you said you didn't want to discuss the AR, which I haven't, but you said you wanted to discuss how Buffy and Spike's behaviour towards each other affect them, which I have.

And I think your radio may be broken lol.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,234
Age
48
No, you said you didn't want to discuss the AR, which I haven't, but you said you wanted to discuss how Buffy and Spike's behaviour towards each other affect them, which I have.

And I think your radio may be broken lol.
I think people are but you're just not willing to listen. You have your opinion and that's that. Fair enough it's a fair country but you already got close to the line with me and frankly if you just want others to accept your opinion... ain't happening.
 

SpikeRocks

Townie
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
81
Age
31
@WillowFromBuffy I don’t mind reiterating for you and abbreviating….it’s admittedly a long OP, some might get lost 😉 I acknowledge Spike contributes to the toxicity in the relationship and I acknowledge Buffy’s mental state/explanation for the abuse (my subtle way of getting it out of the way and avoiding devolving into who’s the worse abuser, etc.). And I emphasize the specific topic of the posting: Spike’s psychology and experience as a victim/battered partner in the relationship, and how that factors for people when viewing the relationship.
 
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