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Buffy Cast talks Whedon pt2

Btvs fan

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Amy Acker has tweeted, it feels very neutral. Juggling her obvious closeness with Whedon and not wanting to be on the wrong side of a tide. Honestly her whole if people felt uncomfortable like it was all minor stuff just I dunno, she didn't app Charisma into it or even name her.

 
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DeadlyDuo

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@Btvs fan She doesn't have to. Also it should be noted that "everyone" is more than just CC. MT, SMG, and AB have all made comments.

AA had no issue with Whedon and gets on well with him, her statement is diplomatic. She's not biting the hand that has been feeding her roles but she is showing support for anyone who had a negative experience.

Also your response is demonstrative of how certain people are damned if they do and damned if they don't. AA has put out a statement expressing support, and you're criticising her for not mentioning CC's name.
 

thrasherpix

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Ever notice how you can't win? Don't show it, it's erasure. Do show it, it's appropriation, and if as a regular person then it's white washing, if closer to the ethnic group or whatever then it's exploitation of some sort. Show a woman fighting back? Well, this. Show her incapable of doing so? Damselled and/or glamorizing violence against women. I've seen some flow charts made on how everything is sexist (or racist, etc) that I think are accurate on this.

A lot is cherry picking as well. Some app was even designed to identify "manterruptions" as they happened (and it wasn't even accurate), and had to be deliberately made so that it didn't include men interrupting men, or women interrupting men and women to create a warped reality. I recently saw a comment somewhere of how mean male professors of women's studies could be (though I'm surprised there was such a thing), but that ignores how mean girlish feminism itself can be, with some nastiness of their fellow feminists for questioning their feminist authority figures that could sometimes make the now shunned and even demonized outcast feel suicidal (though granted there are many flavors of feminism, don't care for treating feminism as a hive mind under some Borg queen, just as I don't like the insinuations that men and women are different species, be it Incels calling women "femoids" or someone saying men like Patrick Stewart can't be feminist).

I also don't like that Victorian myth of women as angelic creatures in tune with their emotions. It's true women aren't under as much pressure as men to repress them (though it could perversely turn into that to combat the "women are emotional, not rational" stereotypes) but life can suck the emotions out of all of us, and despite the pressures, it can drive women to violence as well (though the lack of respect for women often treats it as a joke with the notable exception of child abuse, again because it violates the norms in our minds that aren't actually reality).

What I dislike the most is the focus on trivialities. Like I'm a supporter of RAINN (an organization run by and for women and men both). Among other excellent work, they've not only created more funding to process rape kits (for criminal prosecution against rapists, and it's a horrible experience, to think that many are just then shelved to collect dust is infuriating), but also made progress in rearranging the priorities of police departments that had the funding but not the will to process, investigate, and prosecute. But this was more of a class problem (in one case, a serial rapist was convicted for I think life for the rape of wealthy women even as the rape kits of previous victims from poorer neighborhoods were still on the shelf awaiting processing) than a gender one, so it was ignored for things like "manspreading" or crap like this. Tribal crap, as toxic as the tribal politics on the Right, and also celebrities which will garner more attention than serious issues.

And though at first I was generous in thinking maybe they didn't know about that as it was too unpleasant for them to deal with (since some mistake fragility for empowerment), when one with RAINN said harping on "rape culture" was not helping, they got dogpiled by self-proclaimed feminists (not all, of course, but the vocal ones so easily found online, and by those looking to create clickbait).

Want to know who's much braver than those who "come forward in Hollywood over 10 years later"? Kathryn Bolkovac.

And there were men before her who did the same, but were fired (like her). The difference is that she was smart enough to get redundant evidence, and when all her superiors (from DynCorp to the United Nations) tried to sweep it under the rug, she released it to the press (who published it at first, and then the story was squashed for years before it started to come back out.) She faced violence. She was violent (as a law enforcer taking on violent traffickers in Bosnia). And her career was destroyed because of it (depressing that not even her old police department would take her back after she snitched on fellow cops, even if it was DynCorp, and I really wish she joined the FBI, I'd have more confidence in them if that happened, but I don't know if she even applied). She continues the good fight as a civilian (and to my knowledge, she has never called herself a feminist). But she won't be called the bravest like some celebrity will (save by people like me).
 
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thrasherpix

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I came to add to the other thread. Thought I'd mention that while I did reference "this" thread, I was mainly responding to that article which rubbed me the wrong way (now in another thread).

As for this topic, rather than share my more nuanced thoughts on it (that come from many different angles), I'll just say the only thing that surprises me is that Joss was apparently worse than I thought. For now I intend to stay silent on all else.
 

Btvs fan

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@Btvs fan She doesn't have to. Also it should be noted that "everyone" is more than just CC. MT, SMG, and AB have all made comments.

AA had no issue with Whedon and gets on well with him, her statement is diplomatic. She's not biting the hand that has been feeding her roles but she is showing support for anyone who had a negative experience.

Also your response is demonstrative of how certain people are damned if they do and damned if they don't. AA has put out a statement expressing support, and you're criticising her for not mentioning CC's name.
AA never worked on Buffy or worked with SMG or MT so I wouldn't expect her to comment on them. She did work with CC, though from what I can gather even before all this there may have been tension. Charisma has always been honest saying that when Fred was first introduced she was worried about how it might effect her place as lead Actress on the show. Let's face if you think someone is going to take your lead spot your feelings toward them will be complex.

I think even before the Pregnancy the writing was on the wall for Charisma once Greenwalt left. He was the one who brought her over and Whedon seemed lukewarm with the character at best. On the DVD commentary he refers to the character as a total cartoon at one point. Now that was recorded during Buffy S5/Angel S2 , so even back then there were signs.
 
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Spike79

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I haven't seen any statements from the Firefly cast and/or Marvel cast/crew. Perhaps it was a less toxic atmosphere on those sets. I guess time will tell.
 

Btvs fan

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I haven't seen any statements from the Firefly cast and/or Marvel cast/crew. Perhaps it was a less toxic atmosphere on those sets. I guess time will tell.
Bit of both, Whedon has a great relationship with Nathan Fillion/Adam Baldwin and Alan Tudyk (who defended him against Ray Fisher) . JW is also on record as saying that the Firefly cast as the best cast he ever worked with.

OTOH a writer from Firefly said Whedon enjoyed making a female writer cry though he worked as an assistant to Marti Noxon on Buffy and doesn't specify which show that incident was on so it might not have been Firefly.
 

GreyWalker1958

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"Joss". "Become a better person"....

*Laughs in Hubert J Farnsworth* Exile and blackballed, would be better words to use
 

darkspook

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I think it is getting to the stage when Joss needs to put out a statement directly addressing what has been said. Before anyone says no I am not suggesting he should get down on his knees, confess his sins and beg for forgiveness on social media. But he does at least need to post something to address what has been said. The silence that has been there since Ray Fisher claims... is not doing the man any favours on his image.
 

Cheese Slices

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I think it is getting to the stage when Joss needs to put out a statement directly addressing what has been said. Before anyone says no I am not suggesting he should get down on his knees, confess his sins and beg for forgiveness on social media. But he does at least need to post something to address what has been said. The silence that has been there since Ray Fisher claims... is not doing the man any favours on his image.
Not to be cynical about it but it's possible he's waiting to see if someone goes more into details so as to know how to "format" properly his apology. I mean, CC's statement and the general idea of him being cruel is one thing, but depending on what AB and MT meant in their declaration, there might be even more grievous allegations around the corner.
 

darkspook

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Not to be cynical about it but it's possible he's waiting to see if someone goes more into details so as to know how to "format" properly his apology. I mean, CC's statement and the general idea of him being cruel is one thing, but depending on what AB and MT meant in their declaration, there might be even more grievous allegations around the corner.
Possibly but he will at some point have to break silence over this. Staying silent and not giving the mob on social media is fair but at the same time it runs the risk of looking like: staying silent and hoping it will all blow over.
 

Antho

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Maybe Joss thinks that they are all ungrateful.. and hypocrite... all theses smiles in front of him, all the good things they said on him over the time.. he even gave to some of them some new role after Buffy and Angel. So maybe he is sad that now everyone turn against him.

I précise this is not me defending Joss, this is me thinking at his place.
 
B
Btvs fan
Some of it wasnt there choice. They are under contract and had to promote the show.

Btvs fan

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Not to be cynical about it but it's possible he's waiting to see if someone goes more into details so as to know how to "format" properly his apology. I mean, CC's statement and the general idea of him being cruel is one thing, but depending on what AB and MT meant in their declaration, there might be even more grievous allegations around the corner.
Standard Joss Whedon tactics, as shown with his ex Wife and then Ray Fisher revelations is to go really quiet and wait for it all to blow over. Now that worked (kinda) with his Ex but not with Ray (well Ray says its didn't anyway) as he got fired from the Nevers.
It most certainly won't in this case now not so much with the CC stuff which people have known for years just not the detail or even that a lot of the cast can't stand him (common in many shows) but the MT stuff. That is the main thing. People are looking at those and going woah. At best its bullying of a 15yr old girl and worst well thats criminal
 
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