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Buffy was aimed too much for a children's audience after Season 3

BuffyBot22

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But S6 Xander got somebody killed with his actions in 'OMWF'. That's way worse than anything he did/tried to do during the high school years.
Also grown-up Xander can still be a judgmental grade A jerk when he wants. I agree that's he's better in many ways to older Buffy or Willow but he's also worse than his high school self.

It's just a curious observation, not a criticism.
I'm still not convinced that he was the cause of OMWF. I thought it was Dawn on my first watch and even on the second watch it was still debatable IMO. It just seems like poor writing to pin it on Xander.
And of course Xander still did some jerky things, but he definitely improved and this is coming from someone who is not even close to being a Xander fan.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
I'm still not convinced that he was the cause of OMWF. I thought it was Dawn on my first watch and even on the second watch it was still debatable IMO. It just seems like poor writing to pin it on Xander.
And of course Xander still did some jerky things, but he definitely improved and this is coming from someone who is not even close to being a Xander fan.
But if it were Dawn there would be no twist. Joss likes his twists. The whole ordeal didn't matter because a dude summoned Sweet and not a chick. That was the irony of the whole thing.
 
K
katmobile
But it was dumb Xander sings as if he's ignorant of the cause of it he's not self controlled enough to resist the impulse to tell the truth. He understands Dawn just wanted to spread some joy and possibly wanted some attention.
thetopher
thetopher
^ Selfless. The singing scene in Selfless shows that Xander is responsible. The writers chose to clarify.
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
Doesn't mean his twist makes any sense

AshSlays

WOW, Sarcasm, that's original!
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Black Thorn
I'd honestly say not, what with season 6 being... season 6.
As for the whole baby talk thing, I've seen a ton of adults do it, especially if they're in relationships. Sure, season 4 went for a lighter tone. Would I say it was being aimed more for children? Well, it really depends what you see as "children". Buffy has always been aimed at teenagers from what Joss has said, especially in the earlier seasons. The introduction of Dawn feels like it was partially aimed to make it relatable again for that teenage group. While the original watchers(no pun intended) may have still been around the same age as Buffy, the younger siblings who had been 12 or 13 when the show started were now at the age that Buffy was when the show started, also Dawn's age. If you see anyone under 18 a child, then sure, it was aimed at children. But it always was in that case. If you see 14-15 up as teens rather than children, then no, it was not aimed at children. It's all really a matter of perspective.

I still don't feel that it was oriented towards the child range because of things like extreme themes, especially season 6. A lot of toxic relationships and violence there, and you certainly wouldn't want to be accused of telling children that's okay. The "childish" dialogue I feel was expressing the fact that no one wants to grow up. The gang struggle through the pain and hardships that are growing up through the entire show, and by the later seasons they are fully fledged adults. As the kind of people they are, they don't want to let go. Childish dialogue is probably the best and least annoying way the writers could have gone about it, and it seriously expresses the cast. All in all, I think it was a good move. A lot of the viewers who are the gang's age can also relate to that, which means with Dawn and the rest of the gang they have all the relatable bases covered.

Although in all honesty, I don't find Dawn at all relatable.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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It's funny how you are able to express all this so clearly before you're old enough to have even started the journey that any of the characters undergoes, while us old people are still looking back, trying to figure out all the times we ourselves went wrong.
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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Look, I love rewatching seasons 1 and 2 BTVS. Season 3 I can handle as well. But seriously, what gets worse from Season 4 onwards is just how childish some of the episodes become, in terms of the way the cast are instructed to perform their roles and the overall vibe of the show and dialogue.

Willow practically becomes a little child after season 3, she has this "I'm talking and being like a little kid" thing down to a tee. Tara panders to her = nightmare.
Dawn already is a child = people have to pander to her conversation. Harsh, but it takes time out of the show.

There's a reason Spike is the only watchable character in the later seasons and that's because he's the only one that behaves like a genuine adult. You can feel how different his bearing is compared to the others who are acting like kids. Don't even get me started on Andrew etc, I barely even class him as a genuine character.

As I'm getting older now (32 years old) its getting harder and harder to slog my way through the teeth-grinding childlike banter of Anya and the others - all the stuff which Angel doesn't have (the TV show). What a pleasant change!

I used to re-watch Buffy all the time but now I watch Angel a lot more because it has none of the childlike elements that annoy me so much about the later seasons of BTVS.

Thoughts/opinions?
Interesting! This is the first time I've heard this opinion and I have to say I agree with some of what you're saying. I think there definitely was an element of making the show a bit "lighter" in S4, perhaps because viewers thought it had become too dark? Rating were down? Who knows.

I'd argue that Spike can be pretty immature at times, though. He can be petty and argumentative. When you say he's acting like a genuine adult compared to the other characters we really have an issue! Ha!

I'd argue too that Willow's character digression came from her misuse of magic which arguably started in S4. I think her addiction emotionally stunted her. During this time, she was unable to mature and evolve. Which would explain her childlike behavior.

I just recently re-watched Angel S5 too and it's delightful!
 

Btvs fan

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But if it were Dawn there would be no twist. Joss likes his twists. The whole ordeal didn't matter because a dude summoned Sweet and not a chick. That was the irony of the whole thing.
Was it a twist or simply Joss doing short hand again ?
 
Spanky
Spanky
It was premeditated writing and was established in prior episodes she knicked things.

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
Dawn was caught wearing the amulet that summoned Sweet. Xander could not have called Sweet because he was just as surprized at the musical extravaganza as anyone else and in his song, he would have mentioned calling Sweet, but he did not. Maybe he just wanted to deflect Sweet's interest in Dawn.
 

Btvs fan

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He didn't know specifically what would happen. He said that in the episode. Xander did not put two and two together until Sweet mentioned the necklace. Then he realized it was his fault.
"I thought there was gonna be dances and song" He knew something was going to happen. The second Giles reported the deaths he should've come clean
 

DeadlyDuo

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Why? It wouldn't have made any difference. He was trying to save face.
The singing was supposed to force people to reveal "all those secrets you've been concealing" hence why Buffy is forced to reveal that she'd been in heaven before being pulled out by the scoobies.

If Xander had done something and knew it but wanted to "save face", then he's got a secret. When Giles mentions "a dancing demon", Xander shouldn't be suggesting witches (though if he didn't know, it was a valid suggestion and didn't deserve the glares from Tara and Willow), he should be singing "I've really screwed up".
 

Spanky

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The singing was supposed to force people to reveal "all those secrets you've been concealing" ... Xander shouldn't be suggesting witches (though if he didn't know, it was a valid suggestion and didn't deserve the glares from Tara and Willow), he should be singing "I've really screwed up".
But at the time he didn't know he screwed up. He didn't know they were related.
 

DeadlyDuo

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But at the time he didn't know he screwed up. He didn't know they were related.
He knew about the bursting into song and dancing because the scoobies had a discussion about it before "I've got a theory". He then later says "Well, I didn't know what was gonna happen! I just thought there were gonna be dances and songs." Therefore unless Xander is a complete moron, there is no way he couldn't have known they were related.
 

Spanky

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He knew about the bursting into song and dancing because the scoobies had a discussion about it before "I've got a theory". He then later says "Well, I didn't know what was gonna happen! I just thought there were gonna be dances and songs." Therefore unless Xander is a complete moron, there is no way he couldn't have known they were related.
But didn't he also say that he planned it for the wedding? From my recollect I remember that being said, or words to that effect, hence him not putting two and two together. I wouldn't say he was a complete moron, but he wasn't really the most knowledgeable or aware.
 

DeadlyDuo

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But didn't he also say that he planned it for the wedding? From my recollect I remember that being said, or words to that effect, hence him not putting two and two together. I wouldn't say he was a complete moron, but he wasn't really the most knowledgeable or aware.
He said something like he wanted to make sure him and Anya worked out. The point is he "performed" a spell that would make people dance and sing, the other scoobies are then questioning why people are suddenly dancing and singing. He may not have foreseen people dancing to death (the guy happened after "I've got a theory") but he must've known or at the very least suspected which should've come out in the "I've got a theory" song.
 

Btvs fan

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He said something like he wanted to make sure him and Anya worked out. The point is he "performed" a spell that would make people dance and sing, the other scoobies are then questioning why people are suddenly dancing and singing. He may not have foreseen people dancing to death (the guy happened after "I've got a theory") but he must've known or at the very least suspected which should've come out in the "I've got a theory" song.
He and Anya are talking to Giles about it on the street. Giles mentioned he only saw one of the bodies, so he certainly knew by then
Listening to the Buffering podcast interview they did with Harry Groener, he mentioned that Joss was writing the script (Graduation Day) while they were on set. Maybe this was a similar situation 🤔
 

DeadlyDuo

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He and Anya are talking to Giles about it on the street. Giles mentioned he only saw one of the bodies, so he certainly knew by then
Listening to the Buffering podcast interview they did with Harry Groener, he mentioned that Joss was writing the script (Graduation Day) while they were on set. Maybe this was a similar situation 🤔
Possibly. Joss may have focussed the majority of his time on the songs and the story surrounding those came second.
 
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