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Buffy's behaviour in Sanctuary

Btvs fan

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I don't see that. In "Sanctuary", neither backs down, while in "Yoko Factor", they both apologize to each other, so there is no clear cut winner either time. Buffy does actually get her way in "Sanctuary", when Faith turns herself over to the police. And Angel gets to beat up his replacement on BtVS and make him look like a complete idiot when Buffy takes Angel out to the corridor.

And Spike is often a comical character on BtVS. On AtS he gets to beat up Angel, who used to humiliate him on BtVS.
That's only after Angel was made to look like an idiot and she threatened to put them both in the hospital.

Spike attacks Angel with a 2by4 and gets beaten up before he is outsmarted first by Doyle and Cordy then by Marcus. He then caps it all of by setting himself on fire. That's not competent 🤓
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
Wrong season.

Btvs fan

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I don't see it that way. I think it's more justified than Willow killing Warren.

"Superstar" deals with Buffy's issues with Riley's part in it. Forgiving Riley is not the same as forgiving Faith.

I don't know what you mean when you say the writers say. Is there a disclaimer in the episode?
Given the writers didn't even bother to acknowledge what was done to Riley by Faith and given that it's an Espenson episode whose always been shallow on those sorts of issues. That's a safe assumption on my part imo
 

WillowFromBuffy

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Given the writers didn't even bother to acknowledge what was done to Riley by Faith and given that it's an Espenson episode whose always been shallow on those sorts of issues. That's a safe assumption on my part imo
So, because Riley's pain goes largely unmentioned in "Superstar", Buffy's pain in "Sanctuary" is invalid?
 

Btvs fan

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So, because Riley's pain goes largely unmentioned in "Superstar", Buffy's pain in "Sanctuary" is invalid?
Thats confusing issues and writer intent. It's not about being invalid but that the pain the writers wanted to show was the fear of Riley comparing sex partners (they even have Jonathan say it outloud) and coming across Angel hugging Faith. It seems more the issues were about Buffys fear of her boyfriends choosing Faith over her. She herself in a an effort to hurt Angel says she has somone else in her life that she loves now.
 

DeadlyDuo

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It's why we believed everyone was crazy at the end of the 7th season of BtVS when they kicked Buffy out.
The problem with the mutiny was that it wasn't Scooby led, it was Kennedy led and the scoobies jumped on the band wagon. Wood was the one that gave Buffy the bad advice about the vineyard (which ultimately led to the mutiny) before stabbing her in the back, Kennedy openly admits to Faith that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge (which essentially turns the mutiny into a power play for Kennedy. Even in the immediate aftermath, she's saying "maybe those who have been here longest should get a bigger say", obviously meaning herself), then compounding the situation is that Buffy is ultimately proved right because Caleb and co have the scythe which they ever so helpfully dug up for Buffy despite there being no benefit for them to do so since they can't actually use it.

What would've been better is if there had been a dead potential at the vineyard or if the scoobies had to dig up the scythe themselves because it then gives both sides valid justification for doing what they do eg Buffy was right to go to the vineyard because there was a potential there, unfortunately the potential was dead and so it was a trap. Or digging up the scythe is taking too long and is making the scooby group sitting ducks so everybody wants to abandon trying to get the scythe which Buffy is reluctant to do.

As it currently stands, Buffy is right, everybody else is wrong and they're complete dickheads for kicking her out of her own house.

It's easier to forgive someone for crossing lines when you've crossed a line
I think this is the crux of Angel's attitude towards both Faith and human Darla. Given his past as Angelus, he's seeking redemption, and if he sees others redeem themselves then it means there is hope for him too. Faith has done evil things, and even in Season 3, Angel was reaching her before the Watchers attack. Whilst Faith hasn't done evil to the extent Angel has, it's still a stepping stone for Angel.

Which she got over by Superstar and the writers say in the episode Buffy's main issue was that Riley was comparing her and Faith in having sex , not a body violation 🤷‍♂️
The writers really dropped the ball on that one. It's not so much that Buffy worries that Riley is going to compare her and Faith in the sex department since that is kind of an irrational fear that could arise from such an experience, it the fact that the writers completely ignore the other elephant in the room: Faith raped Riley by deception by via using Buffy to do so, and in effect, also raped Buffy. The real fridge horror though is the fact that Buffy was lucky that Riley was the only guy that Faith had sex with in her body, and that's only because Faith got caught before she had chance to sleep with someone else.

While the Angel/Riley fight's whole set up doesn't even make sense in the episode itself.

Doug Petrie saying there was big debate on who should win the fight scene when making this shows a huge twisted priority when it comes to story telling too.
Riley's behaviour was awful in the Yoko Factor and he really came across as the jealous possessive boyfriend. Add this to his season 5 behaviour and it's clear to see that the Briley relationship was showing several "red flags" as early as Season 4.

I believe the initiative attacked Angel first on account of him being a vampire. We've seen at least two occasions (the guy from Sunday's gang and Spike) where vampires have been jumped unexpectedly by the initiative then captured.

Yeah, as much as I love those S1/S4 crossovers, they reek of 'it's Angel's show, so he has to win and be right, now it's Buffy's show, so now she should be right and win'. The same thing happened in AtS S5, when Spike showed up; he was de-powered and made a laughing stock because 'it's Angel's show, so he has to be superior',
I wouldn't say Spike was made a laughing stock in Angel Season 5. He was certainly used as comic relief in contrast to Angel's serious personality, but he did have some serious episodes such as Hellbound and Damage.

Spike attacks Angel with a 2by4 and gets beaten up before he is outsmarted first by Doyle and Cordy then by Marcus. He then caps it all of by setting himself on fire. That's not competent 🤓
Spike lost his competence once Spuffy kicked in from Buffy Season 5 onwards (obviously some of this is plot derived- can't let Spike live if he's still a legitimate threat). I wouldn't say he was outsmarted by Doyle and Cordy as they did actually end up bringing him the ring, it was Oz crashing his van into the building that caused a state of confusion which enabled Angel to escape and for Marcus to grab the ring. Up until that point, Spike was pretty competent and lured Angel into a trap which Angel fell for and he got Doyle and Cordy to find the ring for him.

Given the writers didn't even bother to acknowledge what was done to Riley by Faith and given that it's an Espenson episode whose always been shallow on those sorts of issues. That's a safe assumption on my part imo
This isn't the only time Espenson has ignored male rape by deception. The same thing happens in Once Upon a Time and the entire situation surrounding it is a complete mess alongside other reasons.
 

Btvs fan

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The problem with the mutiny was that it wasn't Scooby led, it was Kennedy led and the scoobies jumped on the band wagon. Wood was the one that gave Buffy the bad advice about the vineyard (which ultimately led to the mutiny) before stabbing her in the back, Kennedy openly admits to Faith that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge (which essentially turns the mutiny into a power play for Kennedy. Even in the immediate aftermath, she's saying "maybe those who have been here longest should get a bigger say", obviously meaning herself), then compounding the situation is that Buffy is ultimately proved right because Caleb and co have the scythe which they ever so helpfully dug up for Buffy despite there being no benefit for them to do so since they can't actually use it.

What would've been better is if there had been a dead potential at the vineyard or if the scoobies had to dig up the scythe themselves because it then gives both sides valid justification for doing what they do eg Buffy was right to go to the vineyard because there was a potential there, unfortunately the potential was dead and so it was a trap. Or digging up the scythe is taking too long and is making the scooby group sitting ducks so everybody wants to abandon trying to get the scythe which Buffy is reluctant to do.

As it currently stands, Buffy is right, everybody else is wrong and they're complete dickheads for kicking her out of her own house.



I think this is the crux of Angel's attitude towards both Faith and human Darla. Given his past as Angelus, he's seeking redemption, and if he sees others redeem themselves then it means there is hope for him too. Faith has done evil things, and even in Season 3, Angel was reaching her before the Watchers attack. Whilst Faith hasn't done evil to the extent Angel has, it's still a stepping stone for Angel.



The writers really dropped the ball on that one. It's not so much that Buffy worries that Riley is going to compare her and Faith in the sex department since that is kind of an irrational fear that could arise from such an experience, it the fact that the writers completely ignore the other elephant in the room: Faith raped Riley by deception by via using Buffy to do so, and in effect, also raped Buffy. The real fridge horror though is the fact that Buffy was lucky that Riley was the only guy that Faith had sex with in her body, and that's only because Faith got caught before she had chance to sleep with someone else.



Riley's behaviour was awful in the Yoko Factor and he really came across as the jealous possessive boyfriend. Add this to his season 5 behaviour and it's clear to see that the Briley relationship was showing several "red flags" as early as Season 4.

I believe the initiative attacked Angel first on account of him being a vampire
. We've seen at least two occasions (the guy from Sunday's gang and Spike) where vampires have been jumped unexpectedly by the initiative then captured.



I wouldn't say Spike was made a laughing stock in Angel Season 5. He was certainly used as comic relief in contrast to Angel's serious personality, but he did have some serious episodes such as Hellbound and Damage.



Spike lost his competence once Spuffy kicked in from Buffy Season 5 onwards (obviously some of this is plot derived- can't let Spike live if he's still a legitimate threat). I wouldn't say he was outsmarted by Doyle and Cordy as they did actually end up bringing him the ring, it was Oz crashing his van into the building that caused a state of confusion which enabled Angel to escape and for Marcus to grab the ring. Up until that point, Spike was pretty competent and lured Angel into a trap which Angel fell for and he got Doyle and Cordy to find the ring for him.



This isn't the only time Espenson has ignored male rape by deception. The same thing happens in Once Upon a Time and the entire situation surrounding it is a complete mess alongside other reasons.
I think Superstar really failed with Buffy/Faith and Riley and that's not even counting the Twins and there (lack of) portrayal other than as a joke about them moving out. What's worse Buffy was over everything during the course of it. A really big mistake as they knew they were doing the crossover.

I'd agree with this except they have a scene of Riley listening in on the Army Radio and the soldiers saying it came out of nowhere and attacked them. They have no reason to lie on that Radio. Which if course is the set up for Riley going to help and reaching the wrong conclusion. That's why I think the whole scenario is contrived in the first place. Angel shouldn't even be aware of the Initiative but now he's attacking them 🤷‍♂️
It felt like the writers wanted an Angel/Riley fight scene but didn't want Riley to be seen as the bad guy when they did it. Sameway he was Maggie's Right hand man but had no clue what she was doing and how his actions were because of drugs fed to him🤷‍♂️ They wanted it both ways.

Iv not seen Once Upon a Time but Iv seen Espenson work on other shows like DS9 (admittedly this was before BtVS) /BSG and Caprica and even Torchwood and none of its really impressed or stood out to me. It's all very superficial with no real deepens or complexity. So I'm not suprised.
 
NileQT87
NileQT87
Angel says, "I got jumped by some soldiers." They saw a vampire with their equipment, attacked him and got embarrassed about the ass-kicking. Angel spent the fight trying to get back on the roofs and Riley jumped to conclusions he wanted to believe.

vampmogs

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I will never understand people's criticisms of Buffy's characterisation in Sanctuary. It always seems to boil down to "Buffy acted meeeeaaaan so it's bad" which I just don't get? Her characterisation is entirely consistent with how you'd expect her to act after the events of This Years Girl/Who Are You. Her reaction to Angel helping Faith is also entirely consistent when taking into consideration the B/A/F baggage of Enemies.

Both characters are flawed in this episode. Angel is fighting for what's right but he did have tunnel vision when it came to Faith's redemption and he prioritised Faith at the expense of his loved ones. He was callous towards both Buffy and Wesley and they had every reason to be angry at him. Likewise, Buffy is entirely justified to despise Faith at this point and doubt her ability to change but she had no right to punch Angel.

All of the characters have very good reasons to behave like they did. That's what makes it such a fantastic episode because the conflict is naturally born from all of these characters being so complex and well-written. None of it feels organic or contrived. It's pretty much one of my favourite conflicts in the 'verse.
 

Btvs fan

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I will never understand people's criticisms of Buffy's characterisation in Sanctuary. It always seems to boil down to "Buffy acted meeeeaaaan so it's bad" which I just don't get? Her characterisation is entirely consistent with how you'd expect her to act after the events of This Years Girl/Who Are You. Her reaction to Angel helping Faith is also entirely consistent when taking into consideration the B/A/F baggage of Enemies.

Both characters are flawed in this episode. Angel is fighting for what's right but he did have tunnel vision when it came to Faith's redemption and he prioritised Faith at the expense of his loved ones. He was callous towards both Buffy and Wesley and they had every reason to be angry at him. Likewise, Buffy is entirely justified to despise Faith at this point and doubt her ability to change but she had no right to punch Angel.

All of the characters have very good reasons to behave like they did. That's what makes it such a fantastic episode because the conflict is naturally born from all of these characters being so complex and well-written. None of it feels organic or contrived. It's pretty much one of my favourite conflicts in the 'verse.
"I can't be in your club iv never murdered anybody" Given she tried to commit attempted murder on Faith. Thats a pretty nasty shot

I don't think it's that Buffy wouldn't have issues with but more that BtVs had her get over them with a quick mutter in the ear from Jonathan already

Also given how mature Wesley behaved after he had just been tortured by Faith really highlights Buffys immaturity in comparison.
 
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vampmogs

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"I can't be in your club iv never murdered anybody" Given she tried to commit attempted murder on Faith. Thats a pretty nasty shot
That doesn't make it a bad episode. Buffy's human and, like anybody, Buffy can sometimes say nasty things.

I don't think it's that Buffy wouldn't have issues with but more that BtVs had her get over them with a quick mutter in the ear from Jonathan already
Huh? Jonathan helped Buffy repair her relationship with Riley. Jonathan absolutely did not help Buffy get over her anger towards Faith.

Also given how mature Wesley behaved after he had just been tortured by Faith really highlights Buffys immaturity in comparison.
How did they act differently? Wesley had all day to stew on Angel helping Faith and come to terms with it. Even when he does, he explicitly tells Angel "I didn't do it for her - I did it for [Angel]" because he "trusts [Angel]. Well, more than 3 gun-toting maniacs anyway." When Wesley first learned that Angel was helping Faith he was absolutely livid. He believed that Faith should be gagged and chained and was adamant that there was evil inside Faith and that she couldn't be redeemed.

Buffy isn't any different. Her first reaction is to be furious just as Wesley was, she lashes out at Angel just as Wesley did, she's sceptical of Faith's ability to change just as Wesley was, but she defends Faith and Angel from the Council goons just as Wesley did.
 

Btvs fan

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That doesn't make it a bad episode. Buffy's human and, like anybody, Buffy can sometimes say nasty things.



Huh? Jonathan helped Buffy repair her relationship with Riley. Jonathan absolutely did not help Buffy get over her anger towards Faith.



How did they act differently? Wesley had all day to stew on Angel helping Faith and come to terms with it. Even when he does, he explicitly tells Angel "I didn't do it for her - I did it for [Angel]" because he "trusts [Angel]. Well, more than 3 gun-toting maniacs anyway." When Wesley first learned that Angel was helping Faith he was absolutely livid. He believed that Faith should be gagged and chained and was adamant that there was evil inside Faith and that she couldn't be redeemed.

Buffy isn't any different. Her first reaction is to be furious just as Wesley was, she lashes out at Angel just as Wesley did, she's sceptical of Faith's ability to change just as Wesley was, but she defends Faith and Angel from the Council goons just as Wesley did.
That is true but by the end of the episode. See Faith wins again shows she hadn't learnt much. Given that she never bothered to warn Faith about the Bringers in S7 when she was in Jail and the first thing she does is punch her "sorry Faith I didn't realise that was you" shows she still has a lot to learn there
 

vampmogs

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What does Buffy have to learn, though? Just because Faith has decided to change it does not mean she's entitled to everybody's forgiveness or respect. Considering the severity of her crimes, it'd be but a small price to pay if Buffy never spoke to her ever again. Even Faith understands that when she tells Cordy in Salvage that she has "every reason" to dislike and distrust her. Giles imparts a similar lesson on to Willow in Beneath You - "You may not be wanted. But you will be needed."

It's great that Faith has decided to atone. But that doesn't mean that her victims are obliged to forgive her or be nice to her. Faith tried to steal Buffy's boyfriend twice, Faith tried to torture Buffy to death, Faith threatened her dearest friends, Faith tried to rob Angel of his soul, Faith murdered an innocent man, Faith brutalised Buffy's mother, Faith raped Riley, Faith violated Buffy's body. Almost any of those things alone would be justifiable reasons to dislike Faith forever. For instance, if someone attacked my mother, I sure as hell wouldn't forgive them. All those things combined? It's a miracle Buffy could stand to be in the same room as her.

But Buffy put the mission first and allowed Faith back into her home. That's all anyway can ask of her, IMO.

Also, I believe Willow is being entirely genuine when she tells Faith in Dirty Girls that they figured Faith would be safe in prison from The Bringers. It's one thing for The Bringers to wage attacks on suburban residences but it's another all together to wage attacks on heavily fortified prisons. It's why The First has to rely on an assassin instead, after all. In Bring on the Night Buffy was also of the opinion that The First's plan was to eliminate all the Potential Slayers first and "then Faith, and then me. No more Slayer." Seeing as how there was still a lot of Potentials Buffy didn't believe Faith was in any immediate danger.
 

katmobile

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That is true but by the end of the episode. See Faith wins again shows she hadn't learnt much. Given that she never bothered to warn Faith about the Bringers in S7 when she was in Jail and the first thing she does is punch her "sorry Faith I didn't realise that was you" shows she still has a lot to learn there
I don't think that the scars go away or forgiveness comes overnight also Faith was punching someone else she cared about in the face at the time it could be she instinctively waded in to protect them without looking at who was punching but wasn't too fussed it was Faith.

I don't think Buffy response to Faith is right but it is understandable she's been too busy with other things to unpack her issues with regards Faith and the ways in which she's been shown to be not so different to Faith probably haven't encouraged her to do so. End of Days shows her starting to do it and I've got an entire essay called 'Weird Mixed Messages' which looks at Faith and Buffy's relationship through the series and the DH comics and Faith's development in general.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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First, From Buffy's point of view, Faith has crossed the line and is beyond all hope of redemption. Angel knows better. Second, it's worth remembering that every night Buffy dreams of a terrible black goddess who is consumed by both wrath and bloodlust, and who would neither allow her quarry to escape, nor show mercy to the wicked. Third, this is Buffy we are talking about, she is a horrible person
 

The Bronze

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First, From Buffy's point of view, Faith has crossed the line and is beyond all hope of redemption. Angel knows better.
No he doesn't. Firstly the idea of redemption is shaky to start with. The innocent volcanologist Faith murdered is still dead. Hard to seek redemption from him whatever she does afterwards. Secondly Angel makes a decision that turns out OK. Nothing to do with knowing anything. She could just as easily spirraled further in prison and came out worse. He makes a decision to let Lindsey go and then later decides that was the wrong call and has him executed. He decided everyone who was mean to him in the hotel weren't worth saving and left them to die. Same with the Wolfram & Hart employees he leaves to be eaten.
Third, this is Buffy we are talking about, she is a horrible person
No she's not.
 
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
He also let Darla leave who in The Offspring will kill a bus plenty of people.

katmobile

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Buffy has effectively been raped by Faith along with Riley as her body was used to have sex without her consent. Also I don't say this often....Buffy was lucky that Riley wasn't kinky or exploitive enough to have taken Faith up on her offer to do something nasty or extreme. She does have a point about having given Faith a lot of chances Faith blew or worse than that she could have killed or raped Xander or both.

From Angel's POV which we're in Buffy looks unreasonable and hysteronic but I think Buffy's dealing with a lot of unresolved pain which Angel denies cathasis for. He is right to but I can appreciate she ain't seeing it that way especially since she came over to help HIM. Also we see Faith's tortured request to Angel to kill her - Buffy doesn't. Faith is right Buffy hasn't really walked in Faith's shoes and doesn't understand what it's like to be a space where you can't make sense of anything except that you are a monster - she will learn.

To the answer to Angel being lucky about Faith in jail we see him visiting her there and I refuse to believe that was the first time. She seemed to know who Connor was when Wes broke her out so that would indicate someone told her I think it was probably Angel and when he wasn't melting down or going dark he'd go and see her when he could find time. We see with the scene in Judgement Faith has already learnt the concepts of necessary force and in saying her attacker had low self esteem she's developing understanding. Her slayer strength will also mean she can and will defend herself if she has to.
I think the reason why forgiveness is a thorny issue both in and out of the verse is it can be difficult to know what should and can be forgiven but also to know if someone is geunine in seeking it and redemption even we disagree and we're afforded viewpoints some characters just don't have.
 

GreyWalker1958

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Faith pretty much violated her body as well as violating Riley. There was no forgiving of that around the regret of stabbing her by accident.

Given how Angel gave a half assed abridged version of Spike's development to Wesley, I wouldn't put it passed Buffy if she said similar to Willow about Faith out of bitterness
 

GreyWalker1958

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No he doesn't. Firstly the idea of redemption is shaky to start with. The innocent volcanologist Faith murdered is still dead. Hard to seek redemption from him whatever she does afterwards. Secondly Angel makes a decision that turns out OK. Nothing to do with knowing anything. She could just as easily spirraled further in prison and came out worse. He makes a decision to let Lindsey go and then later decides that was the wrong call and has him executed. He decided everyone who was mean to him in the hotel weren't worth saving and left them to die. Same with the Wolfram & Hart employees he leaves to be eaten.

No she's not.
To be fair, Lindsay didn't foresee the Senior Partners picking Angel for their CEO Golden Child (neither did Lilah beyond the grave). He saw the man who tried to show him another path as a phony and decided to get petty (i.e. soiling Doyle's name and powers/also a now dead Cordy's as a full scale "**** You!")

Re: Massacre- it still would've happened even if he hadnt made it. Plus none of that would've happened had Holland and the crew not bothered reviving Darla (syphillis and all); double for the Senior Partners with bringing in Dru when Darla accepted her fate.
 

Btvs fan

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Faith pretty much violated her body as well as violating Riley. There was no forgiving of that around the regret of stabbing her by accident.

Given how Angel gave a half assed abridged version of Spike's development to Wesley, I wouldn't put it passed Buffy if she said similar to Willow about Faith out of bitterness
She didn't stab her bu accident. She went there with the intention of killing Faith. She even taunts her over it "what's the matter all that killing and your afraid to die"
 

katmobile

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She didn't stab her bu accident. She went there with the intention of killing Faith. She even taunts her over it "what's the matter all that killing and your afraid to die"
It's not an accident but it's not unprovoked either - Faith created the conditions that lead to Buffy attempting it and she did so malaciously. It was itself an act of attempted murder.
 
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