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Buffy's behaviour in Sanctuary

katmobile

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Buffy definitely had every reason to hate Faith after everything Faith did in Season 4 (and after she crossed over to the Dark Side in Season 3) but I kind of get where @Btvs fan is coming from. Buffy disliked Faith from the moment Faith showed up and she never really warmed to her. Whether it was a territorial thing (Buffy does seem to clash with other Alpha personalities, hence why she and Cordy were never close) or just a personality clash, she was pretty open about her dislike of Faith. They never really became close and Buffy never seemed to put in the effort with Faith that she did with other characters.

So while I do think that Buffy was justified in her reaction to Faith in Sanctuary (while simultaneously thinking that Angel was right in his actions to stop Buffy from getting revenge) I also do think that Buffy was always written to dislike Faith, which does make her hatred of Faith later on a bit tainted (or rather, not always about what Faith did to her, but instead rooted in a previously unfounded dislike).
I don't think that Buffy never warmed to Faith. I think that she did feel an affinity for her between Homecoming and Revelations and it was Faith who pulled away from her after Revelations. The two become close again after Helpless and The Zeppo. After Bad Girls Buffy just wants Faith to own her shit which she's too damaged to do at that point.
The rest yeah I disagree with Buffy but I understand why she thinks like that.
 

Btvs fan

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I don't think that Buffy never warmed to Faith. I think that she did feel an affinity for her between Homecoming and Revelations and it was Faith who pulled away from her after Revelations. The two become close again after Helpless and The Zeppo. After Bad Girls Buffy just wants Faith to own her shit which she's too damaged to do at that point.
The rest yeah I disagree with Buffy but I understand why she thinks like that.
Buffy lied to her in Revelations and openly boasts to her about punching her face in. I don't think I'd be to impressed with Buffy either
 

vampmogs

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Buffy shows obvious dislike towards Faith from the moment Faith first shows up; she acts jealous and cold to her and is never really seen making an effort to hang out with her or befriend her in any way. It always seems to be Faith reaching out for friendship, such as her suggesting that they go to the Homecoming dance together. I can't recall a time when Buffy actually reached out to Faith of her own volition and without any extenuating circumstances. I mean, her mother practically has to brow-beat her into inviting Faith to Christmas dinner (this when Buffy knows that Faith has no family).
Buffy explains her attitude towards Faith in Faith, Hope & Trick;

BUFFY: Mom I just got my life back. I'm not looking to go halfsies on it

Buffy was still readjusting after a period of great unrest. She'd only recently returned to Sunnydale and reconnected with her mum and friends and had only just been allowed back into school. Given how ugly things had been between them all in Dead Man's Party it also makes sense that Buffy is feeling a lack of confidence about the state of her friendship with the Scoobies and the way they naturally gravitate towards Faith and her seemingly carefree and "zesty" persona. None of this is Faith's fault of course but it's not as if Buffy just arbitrarily took a disliking to Faith or that this really continued past this episode.

They are shown hanging out in Beauty and the Beasts, Homecoming and Revelations and appear to be forming a solid relationship (the high five after slaying vamps - "synchronised Slaying!"). Buffy's secrecy about Angel throws a spanner in the works but Buffy was hiding Angel from everybody so this wasn't just directed at Faith, either. Then in The Wish Buffy tells Xander and Willow that she "tried calling Faith" but that Faith didn't answer and Buffy expresses concern for her ("she hasn't been hanging out much lately" "I detect worry" "Slayings a rough gig. Too much alone time isn't healthy. Stuff gets pent up"). After they patch things up in Amends they grow the closest they've been all season in Bad Girls and it isn't until Finch's death that things turn sour. Even then, Buffy is defending Faith in Consequences and puts aside the fact that Faith even tried to frame her for Finch's murder or attacked Xander and says that she "owes" Faith another shot and that she's "not giving up on her." She also defends Faith in Dopplegangland and is back on friendly terms with her again in Enemies.

So I do think there were periods throughout S3 where Buffy/Faith were close and periods where Buffy did make a lot of effort with Faith and reached out to her. Some of the bigger issues between them are unfortunate, like Buffy hiding Angel or being hostile towards Faith initially, but due to Faith's own personal issues she took some of them harder then most (she took Buffy's secrecy about Angel way more to heart than any of the Scoobies even did when they had far more legitimate reasons to be upset about it).

She lied to everyone in Revelations that's why they were so pissed off at her, well part of it. Also where does she boast about punching Faith's in?
She doesn't. I can only assume that @Btvs fan is referring to this;

BUFFY: I know this is gonna sound funny... especially coming from someone who just spent a lot of time kicking you in the face but... you can trust me

Buffy is certainly not boasting there. She's pretty much conceding that Faith is unlikely to take her words to heart considering that they'd just been beating on each other but she's reaching out anyway.

Also, lest we forget that Faith attacked Buffy first in Revelations. Buffy tried to reason with her and as soon as she dropped her defensive guard Faith attacked her;

BUFFY: Faith there's a lot that you don't understand
POST: Faith, she doesn't know. She's blinded by love
BUFFY: Faith no...
POST: Faith, trust me
BUFFY: (drops her defensive fighting post) Faith we can figure this out -
Faith kicks Buffy in the fave
 
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benda

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I have two major reservations against Buffy's behavior in this ep - those that don't usually get mentioned in these discussions.

1. Buffy vs. Faith: "I'm so-" - "Apologize to me and I'll beat you to death."

Well, Buffy obviously has every right to be mad at Faith and tell that to her. And she's definitely under no obligation to forgive Faith instantly or even, like, ever after, just because the latter apologized. So if Buffy responded "I can't", "I don't" or whatever, I would be totally OK with it. But in putting it like that Buffy didn't just affirm her own right to feel what she feels towards her wronger - she actually tries to rob Faith of her right to say - just say - that she's sorry. To deny Faith the right to feel guilt. In fact, what Buffy's doing here isn't just disbelieving Faith's redemption(which, again, would be completely natural) - it's trying to block it. At this moment, Buffy is opposed to Faith's reformation. It's almost like she wants to strip Faith of anything that could point to her humane nature, so that Buffy herself would feel more justified in killing, beating or whatever else she was planning to do to her.

2. Buffy vs. Angel: "Faith wins again."

I won't delve here into the whole jealousy thing because so much has already been said about it, I want to concentrate on the B/A/F triangle without bringing Riley in. And in this case, when Buffy lashes out at Angel, we might empathize with her as the Faith's victim. But for some reason it tends to be forgotten that Angel was Faith's victim as well. Faith had tried to kill him way back in Buffy S3, and then tried to assassinate him just hours before, more recently than Buffy herself. (Well we know that she in fact only tried to get Angel to kill her, but Buffy has no way of knowing it since to her direct inquiry as to whether Faith had attempted to take Angel's life he said nothing but "it's true"). Obviously it does not deprive Buffy right to feel and think her own way about Faith. What she shouldn't have done in this situation, however, is to behave as if she had some privileged right to get her own way with Faith just because of her victim status. On the contrary, she should also hear what Angel, as yet another Faith's victim, has to say - just like he has to take into account Buffy's perspective.

Ultimately, what it all boils down to is maturity. I believe that this was the precise episode where Wesley completely left behind his character form Buffy. Jus and t because, while having physically suffered from Faith probably more than any other character in the show, and more recently that, he was able to admit that, in the end, Angel was absolutely right to treat Faith the way he did. This might be that humane wisdom which can only come with age and lots of experience in human relationships, and which is still inaccessible for the 19-year-old Buffy, no matter how many demons and vampires she had slayed by that time.
 

burrunjor

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Even though I am of the opinion Eliza Dushku is a goddess LOL, I think that Buffy was justified in being pissed at Faith. As she said she gave Faith every opportunity, only for Faith to spit back in her face each time.

Faith tried to steal her boyfriend, was happy to torture her and unleash Angelus, poisoned Angel, threatened her mother, and then body swapped with her, let her be arrested and shagged her boyfriend putting a huge wedge between them.

She'd have to be saint Buffy not to be pissed off. At the end of the day she still protected Faith, so it wasn't like she was actively trying to murder someone helpless. Even when she made her threat, that was clearly big guy talk as she just wanted to put Faith in jail and was worried when the Watchers thugs showed up.

However her behaviour towards Angel was disgusting and hypocritical, but you can maybe rationalise, not excuse it, that Faith pushed her in a way that few villains could as unlike say The Master or Adam she was able to make it really personal. Okay you'd never excuse someone who hit their spouse in real life, but with all the body swapping and monsters and magic it's not exactly a real life situation.

I think Buffy was most unreasonable to Faith in S7 as Faith didn't do anything to her that year, and whilst Faith's past is horrible, by that stage Willow has tried to destroy the world, Giles has killed Ben, and Anya is on the team. Hell even Buffy herself has killed a few people by that point.
 

Ann

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I have only seen Sanctuary once and do not re-watch it. The cross-over part is terrible and it is not what I want to see from Buffy and Angel. I doubt I will comment on it again outside of this thread.

Buffy's behavior in that part in Sanctuary can be explained and understood. Buffy comes to Los Angeles to make sure Angel is ok and sees Angel and Faith together. Angel's hair is wet from the shower and his shirt is not buttoned up all the way. Angel is hugging Faith. Buffy naturally assumes that Angel and Faith have been intimately involved. Once again Angel and Faith are together and in his apartment. The scene with Angel and Faith that Buffy walks into was meant to suggest that. This brings back all the memories that happened in Buffy Season 3 and the most recent thing that Faith did to Buffy is the last straw. I don't think Buffy wanted to beat up Faith as much as she wanted Faith arrested and put in jail. If Faith really wanted to take responsibility for her actions and her crimes she would have turned herself in. Of course Faith would have to stay there willingly because with her slayer powers no jail could hold her as they are designed for human criminals. Anybody IRL that did what Faith did would have ended up in jail.

Angel is protecting Faith who is Buffy's enemy. Buffy feels Angel is betraying her. Buffy doesn't walk up to Angel and punch him ; she does so after Angel grabs her arm and pulls her back when she goes after Faith. Angel should have known that there are times when you don't touch Buffy. Buffy sees a move like that as an aggressive one.

That is Buffy's training and she is a fighter. Buffy still loves Angel as Angel does her and he is acting like he doesn't care about what Faith did to Buffy. Buffy used to talk to Angel about everything when they were together. i don't think Buffy tells Angel about Riley to hurt him and perhaps that was not the right time to tell him.

I can totally see why Buffy doesn't want an apology from Faith she has done so much to Buffy that an apology from her would feel like an insult.

I feel if Buffy and Angel had been communicating on a regular basis then she would not have blundered into this situation and even if Buffy had I think she would have reacted differently and perhaps understood.

This part of Sanctuary is made to make Buffy look bad and Angel look good.
 

benda

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I can totally see why Buffy doesn't want an apology from Faith she has done so much to Buffy that an apology from her would feel like an insult.
Surely she does not want an apology and does not wish to accept one from Faith which is well within her rights, but an ordinary apology is never an insult. Not letting Faith apologize could have been justified only if Faith had had a habit of profuse false apologies in the past. On the contrary, the fact that Faith very rarely apologized to anyone could have tipped Buffy off.

Of course, redemption never ends at just saying "I'm sorry", but it's almost always where it begins. Angel was wise enough to know that.
 
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katmobile

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I have two major reservations against Buffy's behavior in this ep - those that don't usually get mentioned in these discussions.

1. Buffy vs. Faith: "I'm so-" - "Apologize to me and I'll beat you to death."

Well, Buffy obviously has every right to be mad at Faith and tell that to her. And she's definitely under no obligation to forgive Faith instantly or even, like, ever after, just because the latter apologized. So if Buffy responded "I can't", "I don't" or whatever, I would be totally OK with it. But in putting it like that Buffy didn't just affirm her own right to feel what she feels towards her wronger - she actually tries to rob Faith of her right to say - just say - that she's sorry. To deny Faith the right to feel guilt. In fact, what Buffy's doing here isn't just disbelieving Faith's redemption(which, again, would be completely natural) - it's trying to block it. At this moment, Buffy is opposed to Faith's reformation. It's almost like she wants to strip Faith of anything that could point to her humane nature, so that Buffy herself would feel more justified in killing, beating or whatever else she was planning to do to her.

2. Buffy vs. Angel: "Faith wins again."

I won't delve here into the whole jealousy thing because so much has already been said about it, I want to concentrate on the B/A/F triangle without bringing Riley in. And in this case, when Buffy lashes out at Angel, we might empathize with her as the Faith's victim. But for some reason it tends to be forgotten that Angel was Faith's victim as well. Faith had tried to kill him way back in Buffy S3, and then tried to assassinate him just hours before, more recently than Buffy herself. (Well we know that she in fact only tried to get Angel to kill her, but Buffy has no way of knowing it since to her direct inquiry as to whether Faith had attempted to take Angel's life he said nothing but "it's true"). Obviously it does not deprive Buffy right to feel and think her own way about Faith. What she shouldn't have done in this situation, however, is to behave as if she had some privileged right to get her own way with Faith just because of her victim status. On the contrary, she should also hear what Angel, as yet another Faith's victim, has to say - just like he has to take into account Buffy's perspective.

Ultimately, what it all boils down to is maturity. I believe that this was the precise episode where Wesley completely left behind his character form Buffy. Jus and t because, while having physically suffered from Faith probably more than any other character in the show, and more recently that, he was able to admit that, in the end, Angel was absolutely right to treat Faith the way he did. This might be that humane wisdom which can only come with age and lots of experience in human relationships, and which is still inaccessible for the 19-year-old Buffy, no matter how many demons and vampires she had slayed by that time.
But that's it isn't it? You're talking about a nineteen year old girl who has been badly hurt and the nature of the betrayal is different too. Faith didn't steal Angel's life and sleep with his SO or do things that were vindictive towards him - his attempted murder was a mixture of business and against the Scoobies. I love Faith but Buffy is right - Faith made her feel a victim. She can't hear Faith say sorry to her it's cheap words from her POV - she needs to see it. Her Faith wins again is petty but again hurt teenager. I think because Buffy has to be mature beyond her years we forget how young she really is.
 

benda

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But that's it isn't it? You're talking about a nineteen year old girl who has been badly hurt and the nature of the betrayal is different too. Faith didn't steal Angel's life and sleep with his SO or do things that were vindictive towards him - his attempted murder was a mixture of business and against the Scoobies. I love Faith but Buffy is right - Faith made her feel a victim. She can't hear Faith say sorry to her it's cheap words from her POV - she needs to see it. Her Faith wins again is petty but again hurt teenager. I think because Buffy has to be mature beyond her years we forget how young she really is.
Yup, I agree that to expect more from Buffy would be unrealistic. These were basically my reservations about her behaviour, not her character. A bit like the thing with the Angel's curse - "it was not justice, it was vengeance". Totally understandable vengeance but still probably wrong. Which still doesn't really make those gypsies evil or something.
 

Faded90

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I’ve always felt Buffy gets a raw deal in Sanctuary. I love Faith but she has done a catalogue of really twisted, personal acts against Buffy. Buffy is clearly understandably seething with rage by the time she gets to Faith in this episode, I actually find Angel edging on sanctimonious in this one, Buffy is well within her right to have her say and yet Angel just seems to dismiss the things Faith has done in a ‘oh well she’s sorry now’ way and it just doesn’t cut it for Buffy at this point. Buffy has shown a lot of empathy for Faith in the past and I think by this point it’s just ran out. It’s worth pointing out that in spite of her anger and threats Buffy doesn’t lay a finger on Faith in this entire episode, she could have, Ive no doubt if she’d jumped Faith on the roof she’d have just lay there and took it. It’s also obvious that when Faith has her ‘you don’t know pain’ speech that the soft spot Buffy has for her comes back and she’s empathising with her again. She doesn’t even hesitate to pull Faith to safety when it boils down to it and puts her own life in the line of fire while she tells Faith to stay down. She ultimately protects her when she needs it. I’m a big Fuffy shipper and I’d have loved Buffy to have walked in and forgave her but she’s not a Mary Sue character so it’s completely understandable she doesn’t

I do think Buffy’s insistance on jail is bad writing since in This Years Girl Buffy basically dismisses jail as an option as she knows they wouldn’t be able to handle a slayer and yet she sees this as the only option here. I think it’s done because Faith asks ‘tell me how to make it better’ and I feel like Faith see’s Buffys answer as ‘go to jail’. Buffy’s actions to Angel are out of character as well but I mostly see that as them making Angel the hero of his own show which is fine and getting him over to Buffy to have a fight with Riley so I mostly dismiss this as plot devices to be honest - it’s worth mentioning that while Buffy gets slated for this episode we all think it’s great when Angel beats Riley and hints to him that he had sex with Buffy when she was in LA. Buffy becomes perfectly reasonable again once she returns to her own show - where she’s the hero

Another thing I’ve never liked is this ‘Angel’s the only one who never gave up on me’ which isn’t true IMO. Angel gave up on Faith when everyone else did in s3, infact he was the one telling Buffy in Consequences that they may not be able to help her and Buffy was the one offering almost unconditional support. Angel is merely the one she gave an opening to help her, Buffy makes it clear in their conversation outside the college in This Years Girl that they could sort it out ‘it doesn’t have to be like this you know’. It feels a bit like retconning what’s already happened on both shows. It’s not a big thing but it does needle me every time it gets mentioned
 
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Athene
Athene
Well I think Faith said what she did based on the present not considering the past because at that point it looked like Buffy had given up on her and Angel hadn't.
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