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Buffy's Love Life

white avenger

white avenger
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With the possibility (now, certainty) of a new Buffy series beginning, what would you think about the idea of the Slayer not having any sort of regular, serious, long term relationship, at least for the first few years, if the series lasts that long? Whoever Buffy's current main squeeze is, Angel, Riley, Spike, or anyone else, it always seems to cause unneded complications and end badly, so maybe she should just stick to casual dating for awhile.
 
K
katmobile
I think you can explore problems without it being a disaster. I think possibly have the conflict be she has a regular boyfriend and how he deals or how she deals with having to protect or conceal from him or her what she is.
HowiMetdaSlayer
HowiMetdaSlayer
Buffy's love life was one of my least favorite things in the series

Spanky

Zexy Mercenary
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Black Thorn
With the possibility (now, certainty) of a new Buffy series beginning, what would you think about the idea of the Slayer not having any sort of regular, serious, long term relationship, at least for the first few years, if the series lasts that long?
That sucks. It won't happen. The show wouldn't last very long I don't think if Buffy wasn't hooking up with someone on the regular. More than likely someone undead or at least of the supernatural variety.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
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I'd like it, but I know it would hurt the show's popularity. In fact, if she's not dating (or at least having a lot of sexual tension with) a vampire despite being a vampire Slayer then that would hurt the show's popularity.
 

white avenger

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The show wouldn't last very long I don't think if Buffy wasn't hooking up with someone on the regular. More than likely someone undead or at least of the supernatural variety.
But romance drama is so entertaining!
if she's not dating (or at least having a lot of sexual tension with) a vampire despite being a vampire Slayer then that would hurt the show's popularity.
But why, really? We're talking about a teenage girl who has, at best, only been dating for a couple of years, and more likely a year or less. Why does she have to be sucked into anything even resembling a long term relationship yet? That doesn't mean that we would have to completely write off the idea of Angel or Spike being in the series, but let's be realistic for once. These were mature men even before spending a hundred plus years as vampires, and Buffy is a junior high school student. Doesn't the term "pedophilia" seem appropriate here?

Also, there's the question of, just when is Buffy realistically going to have any time for much of a social life anyway? She is in school all day, works at least part time at the fish joint, and then patrols most of the night. She's already burning the candle at both ends, and adding romantic complications into the mix just serves to try and light up the middle as well. It didn't make all that much sense in the first couple of years of the TV show, and it wouldn't make any more sense in the new comic series. Let her have some casual dates, but save the serious stuff at least until she is no longer jail bait.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
sounds good to me but not to those who want True Love forever, which outnumber me and you by a large margin. Vampires are also a huge draw, I can only make guesses why

Spanky

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Black Thorn
Why does she have to be sucked into anything even resembling a long term relationship yet?.
Because genre today is all about ships. That's what gets fans talking and excited. How many genre shows don't have the protagonist in some kind of relationship; many of them are also in some form of love triangle.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
You could run a poll to see whether other guys agree with you about that scene or if it's just you.

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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But why, really? We're talking about a teenage girl who has, at best, only been dating for a couple of years, and more likely a year or less. Why does she have to be sucked into anything even resembling a long term relationship yet? That doesn't mean that we would have to completely write off the idea of Angel or Spike being in the series, but let's be realistic for once. These were mature men even before spending a hundred plus years as vampires, and Buffy is a junior high school student. Doesn't the term "pedophilia" seem appropriate here?

Also, there's the question of, just when is Buffy realistically going to have any time for much of a social life anyway? She is in school all day, works at least part time at the fish joint, and then patrols most of the night. She's already burning the candle at both ends, and adding romantic complications into the mix just serves to try and light up the middle as well. It didn't make all that much sense in the first couple of years of the TV show, and it wouldn't make any more sense in the new comic series. Let her have some casual dates, but save the serious stuff at least until she is no longer jail bait.
I agree that Angel's stalking of Buffy in entirely inappropriate, and his attraction to her even more so. This is one of the reasons why I dislike Bangel. Him checking her out secretly from his car while she's eating that lollipop screams "Lolita" to me and makes me really uncomfortable.

However, this being a fantasy series, I think we're supposed to just suspend our disbelief, since what is believable in fantasy is very different than that is appropriate in real life.

As for the argument of this new Buffy not getting involved in something serious right off - I agree. However, it's also not realistic or believable that a teenage girl would not be interested in dating. Part of Buffy's appeal and what makes her relatable and interesting (especially to young girls) is that she is a regular girl who desires to have a regular life, but is also juggling the weight of the world on her shoulders.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
Very well put

DeadlyDuo

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This is one of the reasons why I dislike Bangel. Him checking her out secretly from his car while she's eating that lollipop screams "Lolita" to me and makes me really uncomfortable.
I never viewed that scene as Angel checking out Buffy in a sexual manner. I always interpreted it as Whistler drives him to see the newly called slayer and he sees how vulnerable she is which is when he decides to help her. His "I loved you the moment I first saw you" comment is him retroactively adding meaning to his emotions at the time. "Love at first sight" is not an actual thing, you can feel attraction and lust within seconds upon meeting someone but love is such a complex emotion that it needs time to grow. Now if you started a relationship with someone you felt attracted to when you first saw them and everything went well etc then you could retroactively say it was love at first sight but in the moment itself, it's not love.

Angel felt a desire to protect Buffy when he first saw her because of her vulnerability, however I think it is his subsequent relationship with her that is retroactively affecting his recollection of his emotion at the time.

However, it's also not realistic or believable that a teenage girl would not be interested in dating. Part of Buffy's appeal and what makes her relatable and interesting (especially to young girls) is that she is a regular girl who desires to have a regular life, but is also juggling the weight of the world on her shoulders.
I disagree and I think it's stereotyping to think every teenage girl wants to date during high school. It's all dependent on the personality type, Someone like Cordelia would be more interested in dating because of the status it brings, whereas someone like Marcie just wanted to be liked and acknowledged. If the foundations of self-esteem aren't in place then dating is the least of your problems.
 
Spanky
Spanky
I don't needs to run a poll to tell me what I thought!
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Fair enough. We shall agree to disagree.

DeadlyDuo

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Spanky
Spanky
I think if you were a guy you might have viewed it differently. The lollipop certainly brought in a sexual element. At least as far as I was concerned.

Spanky

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Black Thorn
@DeadlyDuo ran out of posts. I could if I cared. But I don't. Everyone knows Angel was a creeper. That's where Spike learned it from. Taught him everything he knew and all that.

Not saying Angel was being a creeper in that specific scene; just that the lollipop had a vibe to it.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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The scene at Hemery—and the lollipop—are not there to sexualize a younger Buffy. The point is to show that Buffy—like Angel—came from humble beginnings, championwise. The lollipop signifies youthful carelessness and innocence, but since there is no sexual context, there is nothing creepy about it. People sometimes put stuff in there mouth—like lollipops, ice creams and bananas. It is called eating.

Angel's line in "Helpless" is stupid, because it makes no sense. It would be like if Buffy saw a vision of a drunken Liam falling off his chair in the tavern and said she could see that he was good champion material. However, there is nothing sexual in what Angel says in "Helpless" or what we see in "Becoming," except for whatever people choose to project onto it.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I absolutely argue it's sexual symbolism.

thrasherpix

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As for the argument of this new Buffy not getting involved in something serious right off - I agree. However, it's also not realistic or believable that a teenage girl would not be interested in dating. Part of Buffy's appeal and what makes her relatable and interesting (especially to young girls) is that she is a regular girl who desires to have a regular life, but is also juggling the weight of the world on her shoulders.
While I do agree with this overall, I feel compelled to add that I was not interested in dating myself, though neither was I particularly interested in being popular (and as for attention, the negative rumors many girls spread about me just made me want them to shut up). It often peeved me that many females assumed my hobbies and such were strategies to net guys, and that when I didn't quickly start dating boys from the nearly all-male group I was with in high school then girls and even a few women assumed I was having sex with all of them.

Still, I was very exceptional that way. I believe that my choice of media (which precluded most girl media that featured dating) had a lot to do with that...my grandmother never marrying (who I lived with off and on growing up) and my parents dysfunctional marriage (and later divorce) probably didn't help (or did, depending on your perspective).

I never viewed that scene as Angel checking out Buffy in a sexual manner. I always interpreted it as Whistler drives him to see the newly called slayer and he sees how vulnerable she is which is when he decides to help her.
This is very insightful!

I don't know if it's actually true in this case, but it's certainly plausible, and is now my headcanon regardless. I've always been snarky about that scene, but seeing it as trying to show Buffy as innocent and vulnerable does make sense.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Sure. But I think we can all agree that most teenage girls are interested in boys and dating.

TriBel

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Angel felt a desire to protect Buffy when he first saw her because of her vulnerability, however I think it is his subsequent relationship with her that is retroactively affecting his recollection of his emotion at the time.
I'm with @Spanky and @Joan the Vampire Slayer. How is Angel realising he finds her innocence erotic in retrospect any different to him between him (or the text) eroticising her vulnerability at the time? The suggestion still remains that he finds, whether unconsciously or not, her vulnerability, alluring.

The scene at Hemery—and the lollipop—are not there to sexualize a younger Buffy. The point is to show that Buffy—like Angel—came from humble beginnings, championwise. The lollipop signifies youthful carelessness and innocence, but since there is no sexual context, there is nothing creepy about it.
Yep - sometimes a pipe is just a pipe, a cigar just a cigar - except when it isn't. Signs rarely signify in isolation - they're dependent on other signs to enhance or fix their meaning. Not only is she suggestively sucking on a lollipop, she also has flowers in her hair and a low-cut top that is also decorated with flowers. There's no sexual contact in Mapplethorpe or O'Keeffe - it doesn't stop their photos/paintings alluding to sex. The flowers in Olympia are there to signify that which is hidden (her genitalia). I'd argue that a similar stylized flower is used in Lessons to signify the power of Willow's female sexuality (and also in the hated A11, which I quite liked). I'll go with the "carelessness" since virginity (and innocence) is something that's always "lost" "stolen" or "taken". IIRC, it's a daisy with a yellow centre, which usually represents the sun - benevolent in most cases, unless you happen to be a vampire.
 

DeadlyDuo

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How is Angel realising he finds her innocence erotic in retrospect any different to him between him (or the text) eroticising her vulnerability at the time? The suggestion still remains that he finds, whether unconsciously or not, her vulnerability, alluring.
That is not what I'm saying. Angel saw a newly called Buffy and how vulnerable she was at being cast into the world of slaying vampires and demons. He felt compelled to help her because of compassion and empathy due to his soul. He later has a relationship with her where they love each other deeply etc. Because of those subsequent feelings he had for Buffy, he retroactively equated his initial desire to help her out of compassion to be out of "love".
 

WillowFromBuffy

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Not only is she suggestively sucking on a lollipop

Is this really what you call suggestive?
Signs rarely signify in isolation - they're dependent on other signs to enhance or fix their meaning.
Well, yeah, the meaning of a sign should depend on the context it appears in. I tend to favour interpretations that harmonise with the larger story. In the first scene, Buffy appears like the most unlikely of heroes, but then we see the start of her transformation into a hero. What Angel takes away from that must be that if this girl can become someone, then so can he. Angel's story on BtVS hinges on the audience's belief that he is earnest in his desire to help. If he did everything, because he wanted to feel Buffy's lollipop sucking lips, then it all falls apart. It would upset the central tension of the episode.

And I don't get see how Willow's flower could signify the power of Willow's sexuality. Willow is recovering from a complete crisis of self. I see it merely as her taking solace in some pantheistic idea of interconnection. When Kennedy appears and makes Willow think about sexual matters again, it causes Willow to break down from shame and grief. I don't think she would be vagina monologue-ing with Giles several months prior.
eroticising her vulnerability
What Angel says in "Helpless" is that Buffy hold her heart for everyone to see, which is rubbish. Buffy is doing the exact opposite. She narcissisticly brags bout the mind games she plays on her boyfriend, and then she goes home to cry in the bathroom as she listen to the sound of her parents imploding marriage.

I don't see any way to make Angel's line work, because if DD is right, and he's memories are coloured by his present feelings for Buffy, then Buffy is being mislead, because Angel is supposed to be trying to convince Buffy that she can be a great person without her powers.
 
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