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Cangel vs. Bangel

Fred2004

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I wanted to reopen this topic because we were interrupted last time. Since the topic would be closed - and said, if we want to - we can open a new one :)
 

Fred2004

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No surprise that it is so quiet here. Nevertheless, I like to repeat what I said recently! Buffy and Angel, they had maybe a relationship, but they were never really together :) Why I think they was never really together is: they (both Angel as well as Buffy) didn't know much about each other. When did "they" had the time to get to know each other really well? The question is rather when: The time, Angel was Angelus - or when he was in Hell? Or when Buffy went to High School?

Unfortunately, it is not enough for me to describe them as a soul mates. I also think their relationship it's something special and unique. And I don't want to destroy it. I love my Cangel of course, and I do not hate Bangel per se. I accept and respect it. As many of you maybe thought.

As example and what really pisses me off is that many of the Bangel shipper drag Cordelia and Angel down. I always try to be respectful of your ship. I try to handle it as: As the question, so the answer. If you don't respect or hurt my ship, I will also.

I hate the hate towards Cangel and it also very much annoyed me. If you can't stand Cangel, it's alright, I do not like all couples, either. Think what you want, but do not pull Cangel through the dirt.

- In Btvs season 7 at the end of Buffy - when Angel the last time appeared - I thought where is "our" Angel from Ats - the guy we get to know over the last few years. I didn't liked that part. When he was all jealous because he could smell Spike on Buffy.

That single scene threw him back years, considering what had happened in Los Angeles, he lost Cordelia. And needed to give up on Connor and what did Angel do: He behaved like a Teenager.

- Nobody wanted to replicated Bangel! If you think your ship was cheated by Cangel, that's absolutely not true!

- Cangel didn't do anything to ruin your Bangel! Let's be perfectly honest.

- Cordelia always wanted to have Angel! And she always managed to get him out of the brooding mood. Even in Sunnydale, she managed to bring him to smile.

- When Cordelia was sucked to Pylea, Angel only wanted to have Cordelia back. Because he thought he would crazy because of her loss.

- The thing with Wolfram & Hart where Cordelia was hurting by the visions physically which affecting her. Angel then threatens Lilah.

- The same applies to her humanity, she sacrificed her humanity for Angel. She always wanted to be an actress but she wanted to be with Angel. If that is not love, then I do not know what it is.

That's was makes me upset as well:

1.) Angel would never have been with her because she was not a blonde ... but that's not the truth. In one of the episodes Angel even described her as "Most beautiful woman I've ever seen " And no, Cordelia was not a blonde at the time.

2. ) Some compare Riley and Cordelia to Buffy and Angel and I find that totally ridiculous

I just talk about my view on the subject. What you think is up to you :)
 

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
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Riley and Cordelia? No. That is. No. Riley would not survive Cordelia.

Why?

For the same reasons that make Cordelia good for Angel. She's got moxie and confidence that Buffy simply didn't have at the time she and Angel got together.

Although I wasn't a huge fan of the Buffy/Angel relationship, especially looking back -- I do believe they were together. There are many different relationships - and given time relationships can change, though some do not and i do not believe theirs ever did. In my opinion, theirs was too on the surface to be healthy or longlasting, even before Angelus appeared. They simply are too much about ideals and romantic ideas of who the other partner was or 'should' be, and not enough about real. Romance is great for dates 1 through 3. Ideals are not surprising when you are 16 or 17. After that early rose colored glasses period, you must build something if you want things to last and progress -- several somethings, actually. Some of those are: friendship, communication, interdependence, negotiation and TRUST.

For a young couple, there also needs to be excellent sexual communication and mutual satisfaction. No woman in her late teens through her late forties (and most far beyond that) who is remotely normal will be able to deal with celibacy without unhappiness unless she's dedicated to something all consuming like the church. (Buffy showed herself to be a deeply sexual person, so she's not part of that small number of asexual or low sex drive people.) Waking up next to a sexy man she cannot have sex with is more of a form of torture. It could NOT work.

OK, Cangel.

While I liked their interaction much better - it was much more adult, and at the same time much funnier. It wasn't the grand romance, but there was so much love and affection there. Love that scene where he's teaching her to fight... hotttt.

I think Cordelia both changed for the better and helped change Angel for the better by challenging him to be his best self, not taking BS or putting up with his brood festivals... and finally, by dragging him kicking and screaming into the human world.

I am not as sure that Angel is good for Cordelia. He lies to her. He abandons her for his obsession to Darla. He almost gets her killed directly because of his choices. Since the existence of Jasmine in the world is directly due to the existence of his son, an argument can be made that he's also indirectly responsible for her being taken over by Jasmine -- but she chose to ascend, though a less vain person would have seen that for the trick it probably was. Why would she of all people be invited to be a higher being? Anyway, I digress.

I think Cordelia is good for Angel and for his mental health. She keeps him focused on the mission and keeps him in the world.

I don't think Angel is good for Cordelia after the first year. He is more concerned with his various obsessions, including his obsession with Buffy that never really leaves...

Yet, he also connects with Cordelia... but she ends up playing second fiddle. Which leads to years of mixed messages. She deserves more.

In the first year, they both change each other in positive ways. After that first year, most of the benefits go in Angel's direction. She continues to humanize him, to make him laugh, to keep him focused on his goals and she treats him with love, but never hero worships him. She becomes progressively less self centered and more concerned about the mission. Angel becomes more obsessive and more concerned about the 'reward'. He obsesses first about Darla, then his son, then eventually the years long obsession with Wolfram and Hart takes over in a final suicidal 'mission'. I believe losing Cordelia finally meant Angel lost his way for good.

With Cordelia gone, Angel becomes like Samson, taking down the "walls" around him. Never mind that there's people in the city/on the planet.

If I had to vote for one or the other, I would probably vote for Cangel over Bangel, but to be honest, I don't ship either woman with Angel.

Mostly, I ship Buffy with Spike or a crossover character (Two of my favorites are Daniel Jackson from Stargate and Teal'c, also from Stargate).

I mostly ship Cordelia with Angel's version of Wesley (post dweebiness) or Groo or even pre-Fred Gunn -- they had great chemistry and they had... fireworks! Or I ship Cordelia with Cameron Mitchell from Stargate. He is hot. He is smart. He has all the solid qualities in a guy that she would need, and also the world save-age gig and a sense of humor.

Angel? I mostly don't see him with anyone, at least not as he is. Sad, but true. I see him chasing the mission, too busy to really form a long term relationship, or do something about that pesky soul anchoring. Soul anchoring is a MUST before he gets a girlfriend (or a boyfriend).

Yes, I can see Angel with either a man or a woman. Someone who will not take BS or put up with the brooding. He's a good man.... pire, but he needs 'woke'. There are things he needs to deal with BEFORE he can be good to be with as a partner. Good FOR a partner. Any partner.

The only longterm ship I've actually ever put him in is with Xander Harris (yeah, surprised me too, but it was very satisfying to write). Xander because he's much too willing to call Angel on his stuff, to let Angel get away with his bad habits. Because Xander is angry enough to confront Angel about who and what he has been and is. Because Xander speaks his mind, even when other people would fear to! Just as he confronted Angelus in that hospital when Buffy was ill and he was terrified.

Angel is good for Xander b/c Angel demands Xander does his best... and because Angel is willing to spend money on Xander and stand up for him, something no one else ever has been willing/able to do... something someone starting out in life needs both financially and emotionally... Angel pretty much wants the people he cares about to do well, whether or not they end up with him in the long run - we saw this with Buffy -- he wanted her to have something 'better' than him. He challenges Xander to be more.

Angel is one of my favorite characters ever, but in canon I see him as a tragic character more than a triumphant one. So anytime he's in relationship with another, unless something changes from canon, I see something bad in the offing.

Buffy can get over heaven. I think she does. I think she can build a life with a man, including Spike... Spike is uniquely able to draw her out of herself, but I don't think he's the only person who could. She is profoundly connected to others, though she is somewhat of an introvert, she forms deep bonds and draws strength from them.

Cordelia is mostly a healthy person, though she needs to grow up and become less selfish, and probably to heal from being neglected by her rich, selfish, unavailable parents* -- getting a mission goes a long way toward helping her to grow into her best self. She's confident, she's a happy person by nature -- and she's also capable of forming a strong relationship with someone.

Bottom line: Between Cangel and Bangel? I choose... neither.


*We see Willow's mother. We meet Xander's horrid parents. We see both Buffy's parents, including the sperm donor. We even see Tara's father cares enough to collect his slave. Oz calls his family on the phone... he's in touch with them. On Angel, we see Fred's family, Gunn's surviving sister, Wes' father (and his mum on the phone), and even Lorne's horrid relatives. Hell, we even see Angel's own family (and Spike and Dru's as well, come to think of it)!!! We never see Cordelia interact with her family. I think that is telling.
 
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Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
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My OTP is Cangel. And I don't have anything against Bangel. Quite the reverse! I have loved Bangel when I grew up. And was sad when Angel broke up with Buffy. I don't liked to see Buffy so sad and hurt.

And as time went by, I started to see things differently. I really adore Cordelia and Spike. And I did enjoy the depeopment of the characters. Especially Cordelia's. Spike I also will left out, since here it's Cangel vs. Bangel.

I liked to see how Cangel depeopment from best friends to have feelings for each other and it's really a pity that they didn't have their chance!

And I really hate ship battles and hope it will not turn into another one :)
 

Fred2004

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Do you really think it will stop by trying to pull Cangel down and offend the couple? With incest? Angel and Cordelia also have a deeper connection as Bangel always will have - why? Because they are tied to be :) Angel and Buffy only had the attraction connection. They never really get to know each other. When was the right time? Between fighting and school? or while Angel was Angelus? Lmao
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
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What do you expect from it? It brings you nothing, as well as us. Except that we all get stressed nerves. I also do not like some things as well but really change we can't nothing about it.

Maybe some need to learn how to respectful handle another ship. Enjoy the both series and be glad over it. Since the comics ended now too, and we will not have nothing new. With our favorite characters. Exept the reboot...and it will never be the same.
 

AnthonyCordova

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Sineya
I love both ships.

Now that I have said that, Bangel didn't start as well as Cangel did. Bangel started with Angel staring at and falling for a high school freshman girl. That's a little desperate and gross to me.

Cangel on the other hand, grew slowly from a position of equality and friendship. Gradually, almost imperceptibly, their feelings developed and over time they realized finally that they actually did love each other a little bit more than just as friends. I liked that.
 

Dania

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I think it's respectless to hurt another ship. When I grow up, I loved Buffy and Angel together. I thought it was cute and meant something special. I was sad they broke up. Seriously who could ignore Buffy when she cried soo terrible :(

I love my Cangel. I also have a soft spot for Bangel as well.
 

VCA

If the apocalypse comes, beep me
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Cangel on the other hand, grew slowly from a position of equality and friendship. Gradually, almost imperceptibly, their feelings developed and over time they realized finally that they actually did love each other a little bit more than just as friends. I liked that.
Completely agree. I'll always be a big Bangel fan, but I really do think Cangel came about organically– still kind of bummed that Cordelia becoming a Higher Power totally cancelled Cangel from ever developing into anything bigger.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
I like Bangel too

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
I could never get on board with Cangel because of the way they decided to pair them. It could have worked in theory but on screen it just wasn't there for me. Before season 3 they had a family bond which was great and they learned to know it each other and Wes too and Gunn a little. But then it was like boom Fred says were in love so I guess we are. And not once any of them point out that he is a vamp and she is a woman which in the Buffy verse means evil Angelus. I think the writers had a good idea but they missed the right execution.

Bangel on the other hand made 100% sense in every way!
 

Light

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It's been a while since I've seen both series' so my memory's a little foggy, but one of my reasons for preferring Cangel over Bangel is that Cordelia can actually handle Angelus' truth bombs. Sure Buffy can take whatever Angelus has to dish out physically, but Cordelia can take whatever Angelus has to dish out emotionally/psychologically. That right there (in my opinion) is one of the reasons as to why I think Cordelia is truly the one for Angel. Part of Angelus' character is really just him being all of Angel's actual true opinions that he keeps to himself (as seen in the AtS episode "Eternity"), Cordelia can take all of that.

Another reason why I prefer them over Bangel is that I feel like they just have the better vibe to them. I know that Bangel had plenty of happy moments together onscreen, but Cangel's happy moments together just felt much stronger vibe-wise. Whether they're just acquaintances, friends, or lovers their happy moments together just felt more natural & organic. Take this moment for example:


I don't ever remember Angel smiling like that whenever he was with Buffy (if so someone please correct me?). Cordelia could always just effortlessly make Angel smile, even when they were just acquaintances way back in their very first meeting together in BtVS.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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It's been a while since I've seen both series' so my memory's a little foggy, but one of my reasons for preferring Cangel over Bangel is that Cordelia can actually handle Angelus' truth bombs. Sure Buffy can take whatever Angelus has to dish out physically, but Cordelia can take whatever Angelus has to dish out emotionally/psychologically. That right there (in my opinion) is one of the reasons as to why I think Cordelia is truly the one for Angel. Part of Angelus' character is really just him being all of Angel's actual true opinions that he keeps to himself (as seen in the AtS episode "Eternity"), Cordelia can take all of that.
First of, Angelus is not simply "Angel's actual true opinions". Angelus manipulates the truth, he says just enough for his words to ring true but laces it with lies and twisted versions of what's real, in order to cause maximum damage.

Secondly, Angelus never went after Cordelia the way he did Buffy. In fact, Cordelia never truly experienced Angelus' evil, given that she was such a background character in Season 2 of Buffy (he never stalks, harms or threatens her the way he does the other Scoobies) and when the AtS gang unleashed him in Season 4, Cordy wasn't even herself, she was possessed by Jasmine. The scene in Eternity doesn't count because that wasn't truly Angelus. Also, what's the worst he says to her? That she's a bad actress? Of course Cordelia's going to have thick enough skin to deal with that. It's hardly heartbreaking stuff.

Which brings me to my final point, which is that there's just no comparison between a brief scene where "Angelus" taunts Cordy's acting ability and the months of psychological torture he put Buffy through, not to mention that Buffy was in love with Angel at the time, so every one of Angelus' words and actions hit her far, far harder than Fake!Angelus' Mean Girl comments to Cordelia. Angelus used Buffy's love for Angel to torment her and strike at her most exposed emotions. Of course she was going to have a hard time dealing with that.

Also, Angel has smiled with Buffy many, many times:
https://foreverbangel.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F173525512193 I have no idea where this misconception that Angel never smiled around Buffy came from.
 
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Light

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First of, Angelus is not simply "Angel's actual true opinions". Angelus manipulates the truth, he says just enough for his words to ring true but laces it with lies and twisted versions of what's real, in order to cause maximum damage.

Secondly, Angelus never went after Cordelia the way he did Buffy. In fact, Cordelia never truly experienced Angelus' evil, given that she was such a background character in Season 2 of Buffy (he never stalks, harms or threatens her the way he does the other Scoobies) and when the AtS gang unleashed him in Season 4, Cordy wasn't even herself, she was possessed by Jasmine. The scene in Eternity doesn't count because that wasn't truly Angelus. Also, what's the worst he says to her? That she's a bad actress? Of course Cordelia's going to have thick enough skin to deal with that. It's hardly heartbreaking stuff.

Which brings me to my final point, which is that there's just no comparison between a brief scene where "Angelus" taunts Cordy's acting ability and the months of psychological torture he put Buffy through, not to mention that Buffy was in love with Angel at the time, so every one of Angelus' words and actions hit her far, far harder than Fake!Angelus' Mean Girl comments to Cordelia. Angelus used Buffy's love for Angel to torment her and strike at her most exposed emotions. Of course she was going to have a hard time dealing with that.

Sorry, but your argument doesn't really hold up.

Also, Angel has smiled with Buffy many, many times:
https://foreverbangel.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F173525512193 I have no idea where this misconception that Angel never smiled around Buffy came from.
Keep in mind I did say at the start of my post that my memory of both series was a little foggy.

I didn't say that Angelus was simply "Angel's actual true opinions". I said that "Part of Angelus' character is really just him being all of Angel's actual true opinions".

I think you're underestimating Cordelia. Sure she's no Buffy in the physical strength department, but I really do believe that Cordy has what it takes to deal with Angelus' psychological torture.

And thanks for the Bangel montage :). It was nice seeing all of those smiling moments again, but still IMHO, I feel like Angel just lit up more whenever Cordy had made him smile vs. whenever Buffy had made him smile.
 

RachM

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I think you're underestimating Cordelia. Sure she's no Buffy in the physical strength department, but I really do believe that Cordy has what it takes to deal with Angelus' psychological torture.
Cordelia is mentally strong but so is Buffy and I doubt that even Cordelia would be able to withstand the psychological torture that Buffy endured over Season 2. And what exactly are you basing this assumption on? We never see Cordy come even close to being tested by Angelus' psychological torture the way Buffy was over the course of Season 2. Making blanket statements based off little or no evidence doesn't exactly add weight to your argument.

Also, Angel's face in many of those GIFs is exactly the same as in the vid you shared, so I feel like you're just kind of seeing what you want to see? Buffy was literally perfect happiness to Angel, so trying to claim he never smiled the same way or that he lit up more around Cordelia feels again like some sort of blanket statement with no real evidence to back it up.
 

Light

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Buffy was literally perfect happiness to Angel, so trying to claim he never smiled the same way or that he lit up more around Cordelia feels again like some sort of blanket statement with no real evidence to back it up.
See I always disagreed with that personally (even during my original watch of the series). I get that the writing for Bangel was that Buffy was literally perfect happiness to Angel, but I had never felt that in the execution onscreen. Like I said before Cangel's vibe (to me) always just felt naturally stronger.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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See I always disagreed with that personally (even during my original watch of the series). I get that the writing for Bangel was that Buffy was literally perfect happiness to Angel, but I had never felt that in the execution onscreen. Like I said before Cangel's vibe (to me) always just felt naturally stronger.
Well, I mean you can personally disagree with whether Sarah or Charisma had better chemistry with David, but it's literally canon that Buffy is perfect happiness to Angel. I mean, he loses his soul after they make love and this is stated to be a direct result of experiencing a single moment of happiness with Buffy. So, whether you buy it or not, it's a canon fact of the series.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
And when someone asked David Boreanaz who he had the best chemistry with he said "definitely Sarah." And then added "or maybe Julie." So the actor who plays Angel doesn't think his chemistry with CC comes in 2nd let alone 1st.
Cangel1987
Cangel1987
Yes, sure, and that's explain why David as well as Charisma wanted Angel and Cordelia together in the end :) - because there wasn't chemistry! *sarcasm out*

Light

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Well, I mean you can personally disagree with whether Sarah or Charisma had better chemistry with David, but it's literally canon that Buffy is perfect happiness to Angel. I mean, he loses his soul after they make love and this is stated to be a direct result of experiencing a single moment of happiness with Buffy. So, whether you buy it or not, it's a canon fact of the series.
I'd probably buy it more if Charisma were playing the role of Buffy. Sarah didn't sell it in the execution (to me). Nothing against Sarah! She's a great actress, but her chemistry with David was just lukewarm to me. To be fair to Sarah, in her defense, you either do or don't have naturally strong chemistry with a person, so there's that.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
Sarah didn't need to sell it, she felt it. For 20+ years she has said David is the best kisser she ever had on-screen & believes in Bangel so much she broke down crying 3 times feeling Buffy's heartbreak the set was shut down (Becoming, Prom, IWRY).
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