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Character Swap Out

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,722
Age
25
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
Buffy is good at delegating but not in leading, as in giving orders and the rest has to follow. "Empty Places" proved that. Doesn't matter that she found the Scythe after Spike's bullshit speech. That was pretty much writer's fiat as in she was lucky whereas Faith walked into a trap. "Innocense", "Graduation Day", "Primeval", "The Gift", "Chosen" wouldn't have worked without the contributions (ideas, actions, suggestions) of her friends. But she was still the one who had to make this last hard decision because of her unique status as THE Slayer.

Yeah but she was the one who came up with the last minute plan in Graduation Day and who put two and two together in The Gift. I think to be a successful lead she needs to lead the Scoobies in some way. Angel did this without necessarily overshadowing the other characters.

Well, she doesn't have to anymore. It doesn't matter if Faith or the other Slayers might have different understandings of their calling. She isn't the only one. It's as simple as that. It comes all down to her personality now. In that sense, I agree with you. She seems unable to let go of it and oddly, Giles doesn't seem to either. If we look at the destruction of the seed it was Willow who repaired the mess Angel and Buffy had created out of her own motivation and initiative. Hence, Buffy doesn't need to be in charge at all costs.

No, not at all costs. I wasn't implying, but isn't Buffy pretty much the only slayer in season 10? The comics are still Buffy The Vampire Slayer. She should share her duties more and things have changed because of her actions in Chosen, but still doesn't she need to be a little more relevant than the other members? Not saying Buffy shouldn't adapt to the new reality so there's some progress in the comics, just that she can't become just another slayer. She's the lead, she has to stand out in some way - obviously not by being like she was in season 7 and not by just giving orders or complaining about being the law. I think at this point she's already irrelevant and at the same time she's making the other characters a bit irrelevant too. That dynamic needs to change.

Surprisingly I don't think we're on the same page here. I feel like we're talking about different things?
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,520
Location
Canada
Sineya
In "Helpless 3x12" Buffy tries to get rid of the guy who was attacking Cordelia and gets slammed into the wall and Cordelia pummels the guy until he backs off so we see Cordelia doing something that Buffy couldn't do. This is the second time we see Buffy reduced to normal strength (the first was in "Halloween 2x06" where she became the mediaeval courtesan who needed protection) but this time, she has not been turned into something else by magic. She may refuse to admit it, but in "Helpless" she really wanted her powers back, although she would have preferred to not have to use them so often.

As for the OP (original poster)'s question, I suspect the dynamic of the people who are together has been played out and maybe changing partners is the logical way forward.
 

Scooby Corps

Fly! Be free, little bird, you defy category!
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
595
Location
Germany
eah but she was the one who came up with the last minute plan in Graduation Day and who put two and two together in The Gift. I think to be a successful lead she needs to lead the Scoobies in some way. Angel did this without necessarily overshadowing the other characters.

In "Innocense" it's Xander's idea and "Primeval" is Willow and Giles' baby. In "Chosen" it's Buffy's plan triggered by Caleb's remark and Willow pulled the whole thing off. The plan to stop Acathla (prior to the ambush) was created from Giles, Buffy and Willow together. "The Zeppo" is also group work (without Xander) with mostly Giles calling the shots. In "The Gift" it's Buffy putting two and two together when the portal is already open, but the plan to defeat Glory is elaborated from the others. Anya came up with Dagons Sphere and Olaf's Hammer, Willow with confusing Glory by sucking on her brain, Xander with the wrecking ball, Spike with his muscle. I don't remember who came up with the Buffybot idea, sounds like Xander. How the ritual worked was figured out by Giles and Spike. Buffy hasn't much planned or delegated in this case. She encouraged Willow with the "Big Gun" bit, though, and threatened to kill anybody who came near Dawn.

Buffy in S01-05 wasn't about her being the leader of the group as in always having the plan or giving orders. She was also able to follow orders or the others formed a plan and pointed her at the direction. It was about that she had the pressure to be the "hand" (Primeval) and to make the hard decisions because she was the Slayer and no one would ever know how it is. Like you stated in another thread, blissful ignorance. Sending Angel to Hell, stabbing Faith, sacrificing herself, fighting Willow, trying to kill Anya. That has nothing to do with Buffy being the boss. That came in S07, and there she was a pretty crappy leader throughout the season with alienating herself from everybody, her "Spike's the only one who watches my back" attitude, "believing" in Spike and letting him roam free amongst the girls despite a still active trigger, stopping to listen to Giles and her friends, demanding them to follow in line because of an instinct...

I agree with you, a successful lead must be able to delegate and to take the input of others into account. Buffy was really good in that when she had to, expect S07 especially in "Empty Places", "Touched" and "End of Days" where it's suddenly the other way around but gets twisted. Now her friends have to follow in line, basically to stfu, because she has an instinct (she did that never before, recklessly following an instinct). She basically forces them to reject her by blackmailing them and Faith takes charge. She does the same Buffy usually did. Making plans together with the others, listening to suggestions, delegating etc. But she walks into a trap, looking like an idiot. Buffy is alone, get's cheerleaded from Spike (with a bit Scooby bashing and Spike offering to off Faith with Buffy smiling) and finds the Sangraal because of a lame instinct and the sudden ability to jump around Caleb like a gazelle. Add the emphasis on Buffy's tears in contrast to the pathetic chaos at the Scoobies' (yeah without Buffy they aren't even able to wipe their asses), Spike coming back and insulting Willow, Giles and the others plus delivering his self-righteous traitor speech followed with hitting Faith, you have Spuffy praising via Scooby bashing at its peak.

Ummm, I guess I digressed a bit...:p

No, not at all costs. I wasn't implying, but isn't Buffy pretty much the only slayer in season 10? The comics are still Buffy The Vampire Slayer. She should share her duties more and things have changed because of her actions in Chosen, but still doesn't she need to be a little more relevant than the other members? Not saying Buffy shouldn't adapt to the new reality so there's some progress in the comics, just that she can't become just another slayer. She's the lead, she has to stand out in some way - obviously not by being like she was in season 7 and not by just giving orders or complaining about being the law. I think at this point she's already irrelevant and at the same time she's making the other characters a bit irrelevant too. That dynamic needs to change.

Surprisingly I don't think we're on the same page here. I feel like we're talking about different things?

Umm, I have a similar feeling.:p I was talking about her place in the group and you thought I wanted her gone as the lead character (?) *Scratch head* What I basically meant is a change in the group dynamic back to S01-05 as in Buffy doesn't have to be the one who calls the shots. I don't mean that in a malicious way. It's after all what she wants and it isn't necessary either. Maybe they could rotate? :D

Kidding aside, I do think BtVS could try it similarly like A&F. Angel isn't the only lead character there and it works fine. The comic could by now also be called Angel & Faith & Fred. My only concern if Willow would go to Angel is the imbalance of genders. On the other hand, Angel usually does better with the ladies.:D
 

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,722
Age
25
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
In "Innocense" it's Xander's idea and "Primeval" is Willow and Giles' baby. In "Chosen" it's Buffy's plan triggered by Caleb's remark and Willow pulled the whole thing off. The plan to stop Acathla (prior to the ambush) was created from Giles, Buffy and Willow together. "The Zeppo" is also group work (without Xander) with mostly Giles calling the shots. In "The Gift" it's Buffy putting two and two together when the portal is already open, but the plan to defeat Glory is elaborated from the others. Anya came up with Dagons Sphere and Olaf's Hammer, Willow with confusing Glory by sucking on her brain, Xander with the wrecking ball, Spike with his muscle. I don't remember who came up with the Buffybot idea, sounds like Xander. How the ritual worked was figured out by Giles and Spike. Buffy hasn't much planned or delegated in this case. She encouraged Willow with the "Big Gun" bit, though, and threatened to kill anybody who came near Dawn.

Buffy in S01-05 wasn't about her being the leader of the group as in always having the plan or giving orders. She was also able to follow orders or the others formed a plan and pointed her at the direction. It was about that she had the pressure to be the "hand" (Primeval) and to make the hard decisions because she was the Slayer and no one would ever know how it is. Like you stated in another thread, blissful ignorance. Sending Angel to Hell, stabbing Faith, sacrificing herself, fighting Willow, trying to kill Anya. That has nothing to do with Buffy being the boss. That came in S07, and there she was a pretty crappy leader throughout the season with alienating herself from everybody, her "Spike's the only one who watches my back" attitude, "believing" in Spike and letting him roam free amongst the girls despite a still active trigger, stopping to listen to Giles and her friends, demanding them to follow in line because of an instinct...

I agree with you, a successful lead must be able to delegate and to take the input of others into account. Buffy was really good in that when she had to, expect S07 especially in "Empty Places", "Touched" and "End of Days" where it's suddenly the other way around but gets twisted. Now her friends have to follow in line, basically to stfu, because she has an instinct (she did that never before, recklessly following an instinct). She basically forces them to reject her by blackmailing them and Faith takes charge. She does the same Buffy usually did. Making plans together with the others, listening to suggestions, delegating etc. But she walks into a trap, looking like an idiot. Buffy is alone, get's cheerleaded from Spike (with a bit Scooby bashing and Spike offering to off Faith with Buffy smiling) and finds the Sangraal because of a lame instinct and the sudden ability to jump around Caleb like a gazelle. Add the emphasis on Buffy's tears in contrast to the pathetic chaos at the Scoobies' (yeah without Buffy they aren't even able to wipe their asses), Spike coming back and insulting Willow, Giles and the others plus delivering his self-righteous traitor speech followed with hitting Faith, you have Spuffy praising via Scooby bashing at its peak.

Ummm, I guess I digressed a bit...:p

I completely agree with all of this. Season 7 was pretty awful. Ironically, in trying to make the Scoobies and Faith look bad to elevate Buffy's role, they actually just made everyone look bad :rolleyes:.

Don't worry, it was a nice digression.

Umm, I have a similar feeling.:p I was talking about her place in the group and you thought I wanted her gone as the lead character (?) *Scratch head* What I basically meant is a change in the group dynamic back to S01-05 as in Buffy doesn't have to be the one who calls the shots. I don't mean that in a malicious way. It's after all what she wants and it isn't necessary either. Maybe they could rotate? :D

No, I just thought you wanted Buffy to be just another member of The Scoobies, in a way she had never been before. Instead you want the S01-S05 group dynamic and Buffy's role in said group back which I totally agree with. I guess we're back on the same page :D

Kidding aside, I do think BtVS could try it similarly like A&F. Angel isn't the only lead character there and it works fine. The comic could by now also be called Angel & Faith & Fred. My only concern if Willow would go to Angel is the imbalance of genders. On the other hand, Angel usually does better with the ladies.:D

Yeah, they definitively should. I'm okay with the gender imbalance though, to make up for the overwhelming amount of male characters on Angel (especially season 5). And good female characters at that ;)

Off topic now: I watched 3 episodes of Angel season 5 and wish I hadn't. I hate the W&H offices, seeing Angel in ugly suits, his ugly hair cut, watching him be part of a massive law firm... And Spike... Why can't he just die? Nina and Eve, a couple more pretty 20 something year-old's Angel can bang to increase ratings. What about Cordy? No one visits her at the hospital? Does Angel think about losing his son and Cordy? He's already going for Nina? I had to watch Amends to wipe S5 out of my mind :p I'm sure I need time to adjust to everything but it seems like a different show, I don't feel connected with it. Tell me it gets much better!
 

Scooby Corps

Fly! Be free, little bird, you defy category!
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
595
Location
Germany
No, I just thought you wanted Buffy to be just another member of The Scoobies, in a way she had never been before. Instead you want the S01-S05 group dynamic and Buffy's role in said group back which I totally agree with. I guess we're back on the same page :D

Ah okay, no not that. It's not even possible since no member of the Scooby gang is "just" another member.

I'm okay with the gender imbalance though, to make up for the overwhelming amount of male characters on Angel (especially season 5).

Good point. My fave character swaps, new comics, for the next seasons (to have something to say about the thread subject):

BtVS S11: Buffy + Xander + (Willow) + (Spike) + (Giles) + Dawn + new characters.

Willow: Only if she gets a big own arc. Unlikely.

Spike: I've read here on the board an idea for a Spike mini where he goes off to take out Drusilla, since Angel seems to be unable to. That sounds actually interesting, hence I would read it.

Giles: Giles could be a character who doesn't really belong to one or another team but frequently swaps around.

Other comics in various pairings:

Angel & Faith & Fred & Willow

Angel & Fred // Faith & Willow

Willow & Lorne (I don't know, I like it :D)

Angel & Willow // Faith & Fred

Willow (& eventual new characters)

I would be thrilled with all of them. :) Maybe they find some good use for Gunn and Connor as well.


Off topic now: I watched 3 episodes of Angel season 5 and wish I hadn't. I hate the W&H offices, seeing Angel in ugly suits, his ugly hair cut, watching him be part of a massive law firm... And Spike... Why can't he just die? Nina and Eve, a couple more pretty 20 something year-old's Angel can bang to increase ratings. What about Cordy? No one visits her at the hospital? Does Angel think about losing his son and Cordy? He's already going for Nina? I had to watch Amends to wipe S5 out of my mind :p I'm sure I need time to adjust to everything but it seems like a different show, I don't feel connected with it. Tell me it gets much better!

You'll hate "The Girl In Question". It's cheap Spuffy Vs. Bangel nonsense, both, Angel and Spike are morons, there is Andrew, and the episode doesn't have any point since the Buffy storyline is retconned. And if it hadn't been retconned, Buffy would be a moron too. The other storyline with Wesley and Illyria is okay I guess.

I like S05 better than S04, however, because it's more coherent. Spike is bearable. When it's not about Buffy, he delivers decent comic relief. He also has kind of a character arc which isn't about a woman. Quite refreshing. The Illyria storyline is cool, gave Fred actually some appeal. I don't know if you like Fresley, I'm pretty indifferent about it but it provided for some emotions and Wesley's character conclusion is sad but consequent. The Angelus and William flashbacks are okay, though it's much about women again. The overall theme is, again, "power corrupts" and "grey areas" so I guess you're not too keen on that. I found the "upgrading" of Gunn a bit lame but that's just me. Lorne is cool but I never understood his purpose or benefit as the marketing manager. There are some good episodes but I strongly recommend to avoid "Harm's Way". It's probably the most redundant episode of AtS & BtVS together. Cordelia has one episode dedicated to her. It doesn't make up for S04, though. Connor appears in two episodes. Eve is beyond flat (bad actress) and Nina is one of those "girls next door" with an hairy upgrade but no depth. Harmony is good for comic relief but I didn't understand why Angel tolerated her in the first place, or what Wesley was thinking by hiring her. The end is cool and spectacular with a cliffhanger.

All in all, I'd say watch it for continuity and look away when it gets too jarring. Have you read the After The Fall comics?
 

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,722
Age
25
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
Good point. My fave character swaps, new comics, for the next seasons (to have something to say about the thread subject):

BtVS S11: Buffy + Xander + (Willow) + (Spike) + (Giles) + Dawn + new characters.

Willow: Only if she gets a big own arc. Unlikely.

Spike: I've read here on the board an idea for a Spike mini where he goes off to take out Drusilla, since Angel seems to be unable to. That sounds actually interesting, hence I would read it.

Giles: Giles could be a character who doesn't really belong to one or another team but frequently swaps around.

Other comics in various pairings:

Angel & Faith & Fred & Willow

Angel & Fred // Faith & Willow

Willow & Lorne (I don't know, I like it :D)

Angel & Willow // Faith & Fred

Willow (& eventual new characters)

I would be thrilled with all of them. :) Maybe they find some good use for Gunn and Connor as well.

Agreed :) I want to add Angel&Buffy (an issue, for example, would be very interesting: the two biggest characters (old lovers) fighting side by side after so many years) and Buffy&Faith for the same reasons (it would be interesting to explore their antagonistic relationship and how Buffy and Faith matured differently - Faith learned from her mistakes, Buffy didn't).

Angel seems incapable of killing his old "family" members. He didn't kill Darla when he could have done so in Epiphany, he could never kill Dru because he was the one who made her a monster (guilt again) and Spike was a torn on his side for a long time, but again, he couldn't kill him. I honestly don't think Spike could kill Dru either, only if he absolutely had to. Like when Angel killed Darla for Buffy.

You'll hate "The Girl In Question". It's cheap Spuffy Vs. Bangel nonsense, both, Angel and Spike are morons, there is Andrew, and the episode doesn't have any point since the Buffy storyline is retconned. And if it hadn't been retconned, Buffy would be a moron too. The other storyline with Wesley and Illyria is okay I guess.

I read the script for that one already :eek: Even the "our love is eternal" line doesn't make me feel better (probably because Angel sounds like a child).

I like S05 better than S04, however, because it's more coherent. Spike is bearable. When it's not about Buffy, he delivers decent comic relief. He also has kind of a character arc which isn't about a woman. Quite refreshing. The Illyria storyline is cool, gave Fred actually some appeal. I don't know if you like Fresley, I'm pretty indifferent about it but it provided for some emotions and Wesley's character conclusion is sad but consequent. The Angelus and William flashbacks are okay, though it's much about women again. The overall theme is, again, "power corrupts" and "grey areas" so I guess you're not too keen on that. I found the "upgrading" of Gunn a bit lame but that's just me. Lorne is cool but I never understood his purpose or benefit as the marketing manager. There are some good episodes but I strongly recommend to avoid "Harm's Way". It's probably the most redundant episode of AtS & BtVS together. Cordelia has one episode dedicated to her. It doesn't make up for S04, though. Connor appears in two episodes. Eve is beyond flat (bad actress) and Nina is one of those "girls next door" with an hairy upgrade but no depth. Harmony is good for comic relief but I didn't understand why Angel tolerated her in the first place, or what Wesley was thinking by hiring her. The end is cool and spectacular with a cliffhanger.

I already know most of what happens, I've read the transcript of You're Welcome and I know who dies (or better put, who doesn't die). Angel is already a big grey area, you don't need to make a season out of that. And yeah, I don't like the power corrupts theme. What they did to Gunn is pretty offensive imo. I like his character - I don't love the guy - but he has a nice sense of humor, he's a good person, a fighter, loyal... He already had a lot to offer if only the writers had bothered to do something with the character. I'll stay out of "Harm's Way" ;) Wesley said he chose Harm because she was a familiar face. I actually kind of get that; they were so out of their depth that an old "enemy" was comforting.

All in all, I'd say watch it for continuity and look away when it gets too jarring. Have you read the After The Fall comics?

I'll do that when I feel ready again :p I did read those comics. I liked them a lot. What about you?
 

The Bronze

Rogue Demon Hunter
Joined
Jul 11, 2013
Messages
3,491
Age
35
Location
Essex
Black Thorn
I don't mind the idea of some crossovers or people switching about if it's done well. I'm not convinced it would solve much of anything though. I think what all the characters could do with at the moment is some more activities outside of the demon hunting. The show always worked well with balancing normal life and the supernatural. The characters were concerned about school, their family and their jobs etc. They also used to go out and see films, go to bars or just hang around. Buffy loved ice skating, wanted to be a cheerleader or homecoming queen. I guess I'd just like to see them all have some interests and hobbies. It could be stuff they do together or separately as long as there's something to make them more relatable again.
 
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