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Characters getting the Tara Maclay treatment

Blaze

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Not all of them get the Tara treatment. The lesbians in s1 of Jane the Virgin, one was incompetent and made to be crazy and her lover was a drug dealing killer. Lesbians are people to. Not sure about Blaze though. Lol. But as far as the representation goes, my gay best friend from high school related to Marco from Degrassi. It's important that teenagers of all kinds can relate to someone and not feel out casted. I don't like it when shows have gay/lesbian to just be like "look we have a gay character aren't we edgey". No, make them a real person who just happens to be gay. Its not a gimmick. I like the way it went down with Willow and Tara. They were just a couple, and I'm sad it ended. Mostly because i don't like Kennedy, and while I'm not a huge Tara fan, she's better than Kennedy. Who to me does feel like "look at me I'm a lesbian". I just don't like her.
And even Marco slept with a girl in his last season on Degrassi, that was pretty cringy! But no seriously, that's the issue, name me one well written lesbian character that is neither crazy, nor dead, nor had a partner die. There are none!

About the only show lately that I seen that has had Happy Lesbians is Glee . Any other shows out there ?
The only shows I can think of are shows that focus specifically on lesbians, like South of Nowhere. But that doesn't really count in the sense that the show is specifically aimed at lesbians. For shows where the plot does not revolve around the girls being lesbians, there really aren't any shows where the lesbians end up happy and in love. Maybe Wentworth, but that show isn't done yet, same for Black Sails maybe. Orange is the New Black might also be one. But in most shows, Xena, Buffy, Orphan Black, the 100, PoI, PLL, Skins, American Horror Story, Supernatural, even gay shows like Lip Service and the L word, and even video games like Life is Strange fall for this trope. And that's just a fraction of it.
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
lol. of course its one of your favs.

Fuffy Baith

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Sineya
@Blaze : Lol was that suppose to make me feel better?

Was I suppose to make you feel better? Lol. No i was just giving my opinion. And thought you should know what's going on with lesbians in another show. I feel like you need to know all the gay characters on TV. No but seriously, I get what you're saying. I can't argue anything.
 

ChaseRules

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Sineya
That one reason I brought Glee up . They had two long term gay couples on there who toward the end of the series got married .
Which is one for the history books if you ask me.
 

Fuffy Baith

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And even Marco slept with a girl in his last season on Degrassi, that was pretty cringy! But no seriously, that's the issue, name me one well written lesbian character that is neither crazy, nor dead, nor had a partner die. There are none!
He didn't sleep with Ellie. He said second base maybe. Although i still ship it! But even then it's like sexuality is complicated. Every gay or lesbian person I know has had sex with or made out with the opposite sex. That to me is real. But you're right it's used to further the plot instead of serve the characters. And I forgot about South of Nowhere! lol.
 
Blaze
Blaze
South of Nowhere is so cheesy and awful, but it's still one of my fav show lol

ChaseRules

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Sineya
Some shows are your secret pleasure because you really like them but don't want other people to hear you watch them.
 

Wildfly

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I think in Buffy no one was safe from Joss, except the trio (Buffy, Xander and Will) and it's should be like that.

@Blaze i know you'll hate it, but Joss did a favour killing off Tara. Now the fans think that Tara was perfect, she was Willow's soulmate, tragically torn from her side, and if not evil Joss, the couple would have experienced eternal love and bliss. Willow and Tara, the perfect couple.
But the truth is, in the Buffyverse there's no relationship which lasted more than two seasons. They'd have split up eventually.
I mean, no one in a relationship at the end of the seventh season, but the LGBT community got representation - one of the 'core three' is lesbian, and that's what counts.

In 100, I absolutely hated them killing off my favourite character, Finn, (I shipped him and Clarke.) Also would have preferred everyone getting their happily-ever-after in Buffy. But i would never try to pressure the writers into giving my loved characters a happy ending.

Absolutely true, there is a problem with lack of representation of people of color- look at the Oscars or as they called now
‘the White People’s Choice Awards’.
Or even more fitting
Straight, white boy's club.
So more diversity would certainly be better, i would like more representation of all the groups, but not clinging to my fav. character, making him/her unkillable and a saint just because he represents a group I identify with.
 

ChaseRules

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I hate to agree with you because he killed off Tara but in a way you right about their love .
Doesn't mean I not still mad at him for doing that. And you right we shouldn't cling to a fav character like th\at
but also they need to be more diversity so we don't have to do that .
 

Blaze

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I think in Buffy no one was safe from Joss, except the trio (Buffy, Xander and Will) and it's should be like that.

@Blaze i know you'll hate it, but Joss did a favour killing off Tara. Now the fans think that Tara was perfect, she was Willow's soulmate, tragically torn from her side, and if not evil Joss, the couple would have experienced eternal love and bliss. Willow and Tara, the perfect couple.
But the truth is, in the Buffyverse there's no relationship which lasted more than two seasons. They'd have split up eventually.
I mean, no one in a relationship at the end of the seventh season, but the LGBT community got representation - one of the 'core three' is lesbian, and that's what counts.
The point is more that they keep killing gay characters. It would have been completely fine had they split up eventually, they did in s6, and no one really cared beyond "dam, my otp isn't together anymore". Now I get that no one was safe but the core Scoobies, I really do, but the problem stems from the fact that this ALWAYS happens. It's not in a few shows only, it's (almost) every show. Do I think killing Tara was a good idea story wise. Yes it was, it really was, I'm not trying to debate that. What I am saying is that 15 years later, were still in the same spot where the gay characters are always dying. In Tara's case, I think it was the best decision writing wise because of the story it gave us. But more modern shows are now using the "bury your gay" trope in an almost homophobic way. Which is also where I think stemmed the discussions saying that Joss Whedon was homophobic. I don't think he is, not at all, but I can see where people are coming from when they say that because of the shitty way gay characters have been treated by other writers for homophobic, or at least ignorant reasons. (again, Joss does NOT fall under that category).

In 100, I absolutely hated them killing off my favourite character, Finn, (I shipped him and Clarke.) Also would have preferred everyone getting their happily-ever-after in Buffy. But i would never try to pressure the writers into giving my loved characters a happy ending.
Again, this is not about losing a favourite character. Yes, Lexa was a fan favourite, but I can deal with my favourite dying. I can deal with Clexa not being end game (although I shipped it, I was really in it for Lexa's character). Doyle, Fred and Wesley were my favourite on AtS, they're all dead, I can live with favourites dying. It's not about just giving our favourite character a happy ending. It's about the gay community never ever getting a happy ending, and the message it sends. It goes beyond just telling a story when every single lesbian character on every TV show dies. It will never be comparable to straight people dying due to the fact that there are still hundreds of straight people getting happy endings in almost every shows. (you're right though, Buffy isn't one of them). It's not about pressuring the writers, it's just about getting better representation, which we are not getting.

Absolutely true, there is a problem with lack of representation of people of color- look at the Oscars or as they called now
‘the White People’s Choice Awards’.
Or even more fitting
Straight, white boy's club.
So more diversity would certainly be better, i would like more representation of all the groups, but not clinging to my fav. character, making him/her unkillable and a saint just because he represents a group I identify with.
Again, you're right, it really is about diversity. But it's not about making our fav character invincible, not at all. It's that when the gay character always dies, or the black character is always evil, it sends the wrong message. When we only have that one single character representing the group we identify with, yes it is important that this character is written properly. Just picture this, you're lucky if you get that one character you can identify with, but that character always dies, how does that make you feel (note that I have no clue about your race or orientation, so you might know what it feels like, but I'm just using this as a broad statement, it's not aimed at you specifically). It's not about clinging to a favourite character, it's about your community constantly being badly represented. Something that will never be the case of straight white people, because they are represented in 99% of the media.
 
but also they need to be more diversity so we don't have to do that
Exactly, more diversity eliminates the need for any of this stuff, we wouldn't even be discussing this if there was enough diversity.
 

ChaseRules

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I don't know if this is true but I heard that Joss wanted Amber to come back to play a ghost of the first & try to get Willow to kill herself .
If so that destroys the whole reason for her dying if he just going to punish Willow like that . He didn't have any of the others loves come back but he was going to have Tara come back.
 

Blaze

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I don't know if this is true but I heard that Joss wanted Amber to come back to play a ghost of the first & try to get Willow to kill herself .
If so that destroys the whole reason for her dying if he just going to punish Willow like that . He didn't have any of the others loves come back but he was going to have Tara come back.
He was going to bring her back as the First, Amber declined because she didn't want to play an evil version of Tara. She wanted the fans to remember her as she was. Which I gotta applaud her for sticking to that, even though The First Tara would have been absolutely awesome!

Joss was also gonna bring her back for the end of the season, as Tara. Buffy was going to get a wish, and her wish would be to bring Tara back, so there would have been a Tillow reunion. But Amber Benson was busy at the time and couldn't do it.
 

ChaseRules

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So do I ! I glad she turned down the role because would have been so wrong for her coming back like that .

And I sad that couldn't happen . If it had then that would have showed that he didn't hate happy couples like it seemed :rolleyes:
 

bespangeled

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Again, this is not about losing a favourite character. Yes, Lexa was a fan favourite, but I can deal with my favourite dying. I can deal with Clexa not being end game (although I shipped it, I was really in it for Lexa's character). Doyle, Fred and Wesley were my favourite on AtS, they're all dead, I can live with favourites dying. It's not about just giving our favourite character a happy ending. It's about the gay community never ever getting a happy ending, and the message it sends. It goes beyond just telling a story when every single lesbian character on every TV show dies. It will never be comparable to straight people dying due to the fact that there are still hundreds of straight people getting happy endings in almost every shows. (you're right though, Buffy isn't one of them). It's not about pressuring the writers, it's just about getting better representation, which we are not getting.
You need anime - it keeps my daughter sane. Japanese fiction is incredibly gender fluid - there are very few completely straight characters.

Again, you're right, it really is about diversity. But it's not about making our fav character invincible, not at all. It's that when the gay character always dies, or the black character is always evil, it sends the wrong message. When we only have that one single character representing the group we identify with, yes it is important that this character is written properly. Just picture this, you're lucky if you get that one character you can identify with, but that character always dies, how does that make you feel (note that I have no clue about your race or orientation, so you might know what it feels like, but I'm just using this as a broad statement, it's not aimed at you specifically). It's not about clinging to a favourite character, it's about your community constantly being badly represented. Something that will never be the case of straight white people, because they are represented in 99% of the media.
That just doesn't always happen for me, and for a lot of people. Willow being Jewish (and not 'looking Jewish) - and being tribally Jewish as opposed to religiously meant a lot. She's the only character on any show I've ever seen who had that combination. There are almost no Muslims that are not terrorists. I can't recall seeing any other religions represented.

As for my Mohawk half - guess I get the Chumash. There is no one as poor as we are on tv - though most of them should be given their jobs. Poor people are usually either victims, dealers, hookers, or idiots - usually all of the above. They are uneducated, and unkempt. We live in stereotype-land.

I am not belittling or minimizing - cuz, yeah it can hurt, and hurt even more for kids.
 

ChaseRules

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I think they had made Willow Jewish before they cast Alyson myself. And I get the Chumash myself thanks to my grandfather .
We need more non stereotypes out there I agree.

And now for something totally different . Any anime you recommend ?
 

bespangeled

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I think they had made Willow Jewish before they cast Alyson myself. And I get the Chumash myself thanks to my grandfather .
We need more non stereotypes out there I agree.

And now for something totally different . Any anime you recommend ?
I had a friend in high school who was Jewish and looked very much like Willow, except that her hair was ferociously curly.
 

Blaze

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That just doesn't always happen for me, and for a lot of people. Willow being Jewish (and not 'looking Jewish) - and being tribally Jewish as opposed to religiously meant a lot. She's the only character on any show I've ever seen who had that combination. There are almost no Muslims that are not terrorists. I can't recall seeing any other religions represented.

As for my Mohawk half - guess I get the Chumash. There is no one as poor as we are on tv - though most of them should be given their jobs. Poor people are usually either victims, dealers, hookers, or idiots - usually all of the above. They are uneducated, and unkempt. We live in stereotype-land.

I am not belittling or minimizing - cuz, yeah it can hurt, and hurt even more for kids.
Oh I get this. I'm not trying to say that other people don't get it bad. I know they do. Most minority race, minority religion (in the US) and the LGBT community get an awful representation in the media. Some worst than others for sure. I focused on the LGBT issue because that's the one I can identify with. One cannot really know what others deal with when faced with discrimination, racism, and homophobia, unless you live it yourself. So although I do recognize the racism in shows, and I want it to change, I cannot know how it would affect a person of a different race because I myself am white. But I do know how lesbian portrayal on TV sucks, and hurts, and part of it involved Joss Whedon, hence why I started this thread. But I agree with you, the problem is a larger one, I just cannot comment on it the way I can with LGBT issues. With this bury your gay issue, it's not that were not getting any representation, it's that often the representation always ends in tragedy, sending the message that if your gay, you won't be happy. Which is sadly a truth for a lot of gay youth and adults.

(As a side note, I watch a bit of anime, but there's only a few select ones that I like, if you have suggestions though I'll gladly take them :) )
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
I hear you - sent off a request for suggestions. And yeah - the choice between invisibility or attacks.....guh
Professor Walsh
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Blerg. I wrote a too long comment Re: What I cannot understand. It disappeared - too many characters. Biochemistry now.

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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Sineya
Gays are treated now in the media some what like Blacks were in horror films. If there was a black person in a horror film then you
knew they were going to di first no matter who they were playing. It a sutule message but still a message.
 

Icarium

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I am still so pissed about The 100. The parallels with Buffy were blatant to say the least. Many a savvy viewer have expected that particular character to die because she got a bigger role on another show but the way it happened made me see red (sorry, couldn't resist). I got so angry I went and joined the thousands sending critical tweets to The 100 showrunner - and I had only tweeted once before in my entire life (and of course, many people went way over the line with twitter criticism but that's the internet for you).

Anyway, I don't think gays or any underrepresented minority should necessarily get special treatment or pandering, if you will, - they just need to get the treatment other characters get. You will say that other characters have died on The 100 and that's true but as mentioned already out of the two lesbian characters we have seen one was shot, the other brutally beaten and the third lesbian character who has been mentioned but never seen was apparently killed and beheaded to send a message in much the same fashion as that famous scene with the horse head in The Godfather. The straight characters have suffered plenty sure, but in terms of percentages the number of casualties is nowhere near that of the lesbian ones. Mind you, I am not saying that showrunners should have tables with stats showing how much ethnic/sexual whatever group has suffered, just that a bit of awareness of the possible unfortunate implications goes a long way.

I think the main problem with the 100, not so much with Buffy, is that the producer WAS pandering to the gay audience. He made interviews, posted, tweetted, that he was gonna show a love story between two ladies and that there was hope that it would not be the same tragic affair that we are used to see. He did use the gay community as an easy way to get ratings, because he knew the following the character had, and he advertised it as something that no other show had ever done
Exactly. And now he says he didn't expect the reaction to be that negative and keeps retweeting each and every positive review of the episode as some sort of damage control mechanism. He wants to have his cake and eat it, much like Joss did once upon a time but at least Joss could claim to have made a honest mistake. Plus, Joss gave Willow and Tara about two years together. On The 100 that particular relationship lasted for literally 5 minutes of screen time - there was plenty of interaction between the two characters, sure, but the actual romance was basically one kiss and later, one sex scene. Adding insult to injury, the victim forgave the murderer on her death bed and even implored him to protect her lover - the woman he had intended to murder in the first place! It was all so callous "oh, they got the sex scene they've been craving for, now let's get rid of this character".
 
Blaze
Blaze
I couldn't agree any more, this is exactly how I feel. The only consolation in all this is seeing JRoth's twitter followers drop like flies after the episode!

ChaseRules

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I had heard about the 100 but haven't watched it yet & from what I heard here I don't want to now .
 

Blaze

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Anyway, I don't think gays or any underrepresented minority should necessarily get special treatment or pandering, if you will, - they just need to get the treatment other characters get. You will say that other characters have died on The 100 and that's true but as mentioned already out of the two lesbian characters we have seen one was shot, the other brutally beaten and the third lesbian character who has been mentioned but never seen was apparently killed and beheaded to send a message in much the same fashion as that famous scene with the horse head in The Godfather. The straight characters have suffered plenty sure, but in terms of percentages the number of casualties is nowhere near that of the lesbian ones. Mind you, I am not saying that showrunners should have tables with stats showing how much ethnic/sexual whatever group has suffered, just that a bit of awareness of the possible unfortunate implications goes a long way.
Yes! This is exactly it. It's not about keeping tabs and having the gay characters being hollier than thou, it's about getting a fair treatment. Yes, there is a high toll death on the 100, but we still have straight characters that are happy. We still have white characters getting good storyline, and being heroes, and most importantly staying alive. We have no lesbian character now, because they're all dead. And we have a really unfair treatment of characters that are not white (with the next rumor being that Lincoln dies, although I have no clue if it's true or not, but if it is, just wait for the torches and the pitchforks). I forget who, but one of the actor wrote on the show that Lexa's death sucks, and he understands if people turn to a different show now, but that's the thing. For queer ladies, there are NO other show. If a straight white guy dies, you can turn to just about any other show and find a well written straight white guy character. There are simply no well written lesbian character, or very few of them. Not like Tara and Lexa, those are very few, and far in between.

Now another big problem is that killing Lexa, in this specific way, at this specific time, does not better the story. In fact, it doesn't even make sense. The whole story with Clarke and Lexa was about going beyond this "love is weakness", but now they've shown exactly the opposite of the message they've been trying to show for 2 seasons. Not only that, but they gave her the single worst death in the entire show. Dying not for her people, not in a heroic way (like they've been giving every other character's death), even in her death, she got an unfair treatment compared to other characters.
 
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