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Clem and Dawn

nightshade

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Was Clem brought in to replace Dawn as a friend for Spike? Season 5 we had a lot of Spike and Dawn friendship interactions, however we lost most of that in season 6 and got Clem and Spike as friends.
 

thrasherpix

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From a writer's perspective, Spike and Buffy couldn't have their sordid relationship if Dawn was around a lot, able to pop in at any time, especially when Buffy was missing. (Now that I think about it, there really should've been a scene of Buffy forbidding Dawn from being around Spike with Dawn saying that's unfair. Of course it's because Buffy doesn't want to get caught. Though offhand I don't recall Buffy being okay having Dawn hang around Spike in s5 either until Glory found out where she lived.)

But didn't Clem feed of embarrassment and humiliation? I'd think he'd LOVE to hang around Spike, especially in that season...maybe he "fed" off Buffy, too, but was careful not to get caught (and slain), but Spike caught him spying...and somehow Clem got on his good side (not too hard given that he's a pariah, and he loves to brag, which he would about banging the Slayer, even if he hated how humans AND demons overall treated him, including Buffy, such a pleasant aroma to Clem).
 

DeadlyDuo

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I think Clem was good for Spike as it actually gave him a male friend to hang around with who didn't treat him like dirt (unlike Xander) and who wasn't a teenage girl. I think they both watch Passions and that's how the friendship started, at least that's my head canon.

Also Dawn couldn't do her "pay attention to me!" routine if she was constantly around Spike. He did say though that Buffy put a stop to Dawn hanging around his crypt.
 

Ethan Reigns

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I thought Clawn (Clem and Dawn) was the best ship of the series. They treated each other with respect and liked each other's company and there was never a hint of sexual impropriety. Clem is my kind of guy, sociable without being clingy, surrounded with junk food and an opportunist who took over Spike's crypt and it doesn't hurt that he actor is an engineer like me.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
I thought Clem was just housesitting?

AlphaFoxtrot

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Clem was a Gay Best Friend. Well, Season 7 Clem. Season 6 Clem, just an demon with lines whom the writers took a fancy to. And yes, genuine intersex friendship is truly a treasure when done right.
 

FaithLehane16

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This thread topic inspires me to make a Lorne/Connor thread haha.
 
walkthruthefire
walkthruthefire
i like dawn and clem and don't think they stand in for each other per say. i think part of the reason for lack of dawn and spikes friendship is the whole incident in buffy's bathroom

FaithLehane16

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@walkthruthefire It wasn't Buffy's entire fault that she got raped. Spike was 97% at fault for that. Buffy gets the tiny amount of fault because she kept on telling Spike no in the past, but went along on kidding and having sex with him.
 

Puppet

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@walkthruthefire It wasn't Buffy's entire fault that she got raped. Spike was 97% at fault for that. Buffy gets the tiny amount of fault because she kept on telling Spike no in the past, but went along on kidding and having sex with him.
Buffy holds no fault whatsoever and that type of thinking is not healthy, if I may say so.
 

DeadlyDuo

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@walkthruthefire It wasn't Buffy's entire fault that she got raped. Spike was 97% at fault for that. Buffy gets the tiny amount of fault because she kept on telling Spike no in the past, but went along on kidding and having sex with him.
Buffy wasn't raped, it was an AR, not actual rape. I also think you might want to take out the word "entire" otherwise it looks like you're blaming Buffy for the AR. I do agree that the lack of boundaries in Spuffy did give an inevitability to the AR where no didn't always mean no since, as you said, Buffy would say no then have sex with Spike anyway. However the AR is 100% on Spike. Buffy does have fault in the Spuffy relationship but not in the AR.
 
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You said it better than me, kudos

white avenger

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there really should've been a scene of Buffy forbidding Dawn from being around Spike with Dawn saying that's unfair.
But just how much good did it ever do to tell Dawn not to do something if she really wanted to do it? Most likely, Dawn would have still continued to visit Spike, probably on her way home from school, but it just wasn't all that important to the story line, so it wasn't ever shown. Buffy and Spike had their affair most likely at the end of patrol each night, so it's pretty safe to say that they weren't ever interrupted by any of Buffy's friends because they were all asleep by that time. The only other person who might be expected to come barging in that late would be Clem, since Spike apparently wasn't all that popular in the demon community, and I always figured that he either always knew or strongly suspected what was going on.
 

FaithLehane16

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Buffy wasn't raped, it was an AR, not actual rape. I also think you might want to take out the word "entire" otherwise it looks like you're blaming Buffy for the AR. I do agree that the lack of boundaries in Spuffy did give an inevitability to the AR where no didn't always mean no since, as you said, Buffy would say no then have sex with Spike anyway. However the AR is 100% on Spike. Buffy does have fault in the Spuffy relationship but not in the AR.
But you can't be a tease because if you do tease a man in real life, there's consequences to that.
 

DeadlyDuo

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But you can't be a tease because if you do tease a man in real life, there's consequences to that.
I can see the point you're trying to make but I think you might need to word it differently because otherwise it makes it sound like you're saying that Buffy had the AR coming because of all the times she slept with Spike anyway despite saying no to him.

Buffy never teased Spike as she never made him think he was going to get lucky then sent him on his way. She always followed through. What Buffy is guilty of is sending him mixed messages eg telling him she was never gong to sleep with him again, then the next moment having sex with him. It's a dangerous game to play, particularly as I think Spike's lack of soul prevents him from understanding the deeper nuances of Buffy's behaviour. He sees her as being contradictory eg she says one thing but does the opposite; whereas with Buffy, she wants to stop sleeping with Spike but she continues to do it because it makes her feel better when she's having a rough time.

In Season 6, Buffy is an addict and Spike is her addiction (paralleling Willow's addiction to magic). Buffy wants to stop being addicted, she knows it's wrong and that it's not good for either her or Spike, but she can't stop because it makes her feel better. She's caught in a cycle.

The AR is Spike misreading the situation because of how Spuffy lacked boundaries. He thinks Buffy still wants him because of how upset she was over him sleeping with Anya, Buffy's saying no but she's done that before and slept with him anyway. All the issues within Spuffy lead to the AR but the AR is not Buffy's fault. Spike is horrified at what he nearly did when he realises what he had nearly done but he is the one at fault in that scene, not Buffy.
 

nightshade

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This is getting off topic, can we get back to my original question.
 

white avenger

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I do agree that the lack of boundaries in Spuffy did give an inevitability to the AR where no didn't always mean no since, as you said, Buffy would say no then have sex with Spike anyway. However the AR is 100% on Spike. Buffy does have fault in the Spuffy relationship but not in the AR.
But you can't be a tease because if you do tease a man in real life, there's consequences to that.
This is why I hate this episode, despite being glad that Spike found some inspiration to regain his soul. There should have been some other, ANY other, reason for him to come to the realization that, without a soul, he could never be the complete man that would ever have even the ghost of a chance to be anything more to Buffy beyond a few brief moments' passion. Spike's actions in "Seeing Red" were inexcusable. Any time a woman, or a man, for that matter, says "No,' that should mean exactly that for both parties. If Buffy was going to play the "token resistance" game, she should have established some sort of safety phrase to indicate when the resistance was real. In that, possibly, she might seen to be be at fault, but only because the writers never included any such element (I'm not even sure that that was a popular option at the time that this episode was written) And, once more, we get back to my original objection. Rape, or even the attempt, is something very, very difficult to get past, even with the Buffyverse clause that an ensouled vampire is not responsible for the actions of his soulless counterpart. Spike needed the catalyst to inspire him to regain his soul, and it necessarily had to be something extreme, but they should have come up with some different action.
 

DeadlyDuo

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There should have been some other, ANY other, reason for him to come to the realization
Whilst I agree that another reason should've been used rather than the AR to prompt Spike to get his soul, I actually dislike Spike getting a soul on account of the fact that essentially it's a character changing a part of themselves (which they had no issue with before), all so that they could be "worthy" of another character.

If Buffy was going to play the "token resistance" game, she should have established some sort of safety phrase to indicate when the resistance was real.
I don't think Buffy was playing a "game" as such. She wasn't deliberately going "I won't sleep with you.....haha fooled you!", it's the fact that between her rejecting Spike and her running to his bed again, something happens that makes her feel crap and want to essentially "shoot up". Spike is Buffy's drug during Season 6, she's addicted to the comfort he offers in the same way that Willow is addicted to magic.

I think I read somewhere that the BDSM community were quite displeased with how Spuffy portrayed BDSM because of the fact there were no boundaries or safety words which is a key component of BDSM relationships. It's all about trust. The submissive gives control over to their dominant partner but still retains the power to stop it via a safety word which the dominant partner respects. When Spike pulls out the handcuffs, he actually asks Buffy "Do you trust me?" and she answers "Never" yet it is distinctly implied that Buffy wore the handcuffs anyway by her rubbing her wrists in the next scene. What Buffy says and what Buffy does are two opposite things, and it really blurs the lines which can't happen in a BDSM relationship because otherwise things can get out of hand.

Back on topic, I don't think the writers really knew what to do with Dawn after Season 5. She was really just a plot device for that season and afterwards she just remained around. I find Season 5 to be overrated, it has it's great moments (eg The Spike flashbacks, Joyce's death and Buffy dealing with it, Buffy's sacrifice etc) but some of the key features of Season 5 (Spuffy, Dawn as the key, Riley being an arsehole) just don't work for me. It would've made a crap final Season on account of Buffy sacrificing her life for a character that previously never existed but is now suddenly sooooooo important to her. Whedon wanted to put a twist on the "Cousin Oliver" trope like he did on the "dumb blonde victim" trope, but whereas it played out well for the "dumb blonde" with Buffy, I don't think it quite hit the mark with Dawn. Despite its massive flaws, Season 7 was kind to Dawn but it shouldn't take a subsequent season to kind of prop up a massive plot point from a previous season.

In regards to Clem, I think he was put in just to a) give Spike a friend when the rest of the scoobies are being hostile for no logical reason (eg Xander had a more positive opinion of Spike BEFORE he spent the summer helping the scoobies after Buffy's death than he did afterwars) and b) to have a character that could fill a role none of the other characters could do eg Spike having someone to rant to after the AR, someone to tell Buffy that SPike left town, someone to look after Dawn when the rest of the scoobies are too busy etc.
 
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