• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Cordelia in the cast

Puppet

Actual size.
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
5,757
Age
30
Location
Denmark
Black Thorn
There are definite moments in the show that tells us why and when Angel got his own show - David's portrayal of Angelus just one part - but I was wondering; at what point do you think it was decided that Cordelia would join him?

I was just watching Homecoming and that scene where Cordelia talks Gorch into running away, and I thought that her show of courage and sass may have been the beginning of it.

What do you think?
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
1,059
Age
38
Per Wikipedia, David Greenwalt wanted her for Angel, but provides no evidence as to when pre-production on Angel began. For all we know, the decision was made during pre-production for season 3.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
That is what I've seen. :)
D
Dora
And I with the assurances that she could return to Buffy if Angel flopped

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,075
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
In terms of arcs then Homecoming was the key episode. Buffy and her old 'shadow self' have their most meaningful conversation regarding Buffy and her pre-slayer life. They work together to save themselves and Cordy gets a nice dramatic moment facing down Gorch.
Now that's done Cordy's purpose on the show- in terms of who she is to Buffy- is complete and she can move on.
The break-up with Xander and her drifting from the Scoobs happens soon after.

'The Wish' shows that Cordelia's world-view has been fundamentally altered in terms of how she sees Buffy and Buffy's importance in the scheme of things. Even if she never remembers the events the viewers have seen the change.

Weirdly I also think the comedic romance with Wesley- an actual adult guy- does show Cordelia's desire to move beyond the high school and college world and start 'adulting' away from small town life, but that might be me projecting a bit.
 
J

joseph

Guest
There are definite moments in the show that tells us why and when Angel got his own show - David's portrayal of Angelus just one part - but I was wondering; at what point do you think it was decided that Cordelia would join him?

I was just watching Homecoming and that scene where Cordelia talks Gorch into running away, and I thought that her show of courage and sass may have been the beginning of it.

What do you think?
There are definite moments in the show that tells us why and when Angel got his own show - David's portrayal of Angelus just one part - but I was wondering; at what point do you think it was decided that Cordelia would join him?

I was just watching Homecoming and that scene where Cordelia talks Gorch into running away, and I thought that her show of courage and sass may have been the beginning of it.

What do you think?
what is this scene that says Buffy and a guy is laughing at her?
 

Cordy_Chase

Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
616
Age
32
Location
California
Sineya
David Greenwalt explains in the season 1 DVD featurette 'I'm Cordelia' that "I desperately wanted her to come to Angel because Angel being dark and brooding I thought we need a big, bright smile." He's also her # 1 fan but no time frame for the decision was specified.
 

FaithLehane16

"Five by Five."
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
866
Age
25
Location
United States
I don't like that Cordelia got cast into this show considering she was never close to Angel in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and the fact the writers made an embarrassment out of Cordelia on the show. Her visions only gave her a sense of self importance more than anything. While the visions made her a little bit compassionate, her ego was still there.
 

caitaintdead

caiters gonna cait
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
5,549
Location
Down Under
Black Thorn
Okay so here's an interesting thought.

On BtVS both Anya and Spike kind of fell into the comic relief role of Cordelia once she left. So what if Cordelia had stayed on BtVS and Anya had moved over to AtS? Could this have worked? What would have happened?

Would Cordelia and Xander got back together? Or even have an on again off again relationship? Would Anya have grown up faster amongst more mature people? Prior to S4 of Buffy she wasn't the OTT character that she becomes once she becomes a main cast member so perhaps her character could have been taken in a different direction. I think it would have fit in well to the AtS mission of everyone having something to atone for. Anya arguably has done more damage than anyone else we see throughout the 'verse. It would also make more sense for her to have the visions as she was part demon at one point.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
1,121
Location
Australia
IIRC, one of the reasons Cordelia was moved to AtS was because Charisma was starting to look too old to believably play a teenager anymore, so they moved her to AtS where her age could become a little more ambiguous and audiences weren't expected to believe she was only eighteen/nineteen.

I think Cordy worked well on AtS, as Greenwalt said, her more sunny and upbeat personality off-sets Angel's broodiness well. Plus I think she and Angel have a very natural rhythm and she's able to pull him up when he gets too broody or too inside his own head.
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
12,994
Age
39
Location
London, UK
I don't like that Cordelia got cast into this show considering she was never close to Angel in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and the fact the writers made an embarrassment out of Cordelia on the show. Her visions only gave her a sense of self importance more than anything. While the visions made her a little bit compassionate, her ego was still there.
Does this really matter though. Surely its more interesting to have two characters interact who have had little interaction before. It didn't seem to work out too badly.
 

NeonSlayer

Potential
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
457
Age
32
Does this really matter though. Surely its more interesting to have two characters interact who have had little interaction before. It didn't seem to work out too badly.
Since I think Cangel is one of the worst things to happen in the history of television and makes it impossible for me to put AtS in even the top 100 for tv shows, it worked out very badly.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
6,242
Location
Canada
Sineya
It would have worked out better if there had been a showrunner's bible stating what Cordelia was to do and be like and her relationship with Angel. It appears that some of the writers got the message that Cangel was real and the rest of them did not, preferring Faith and Angel to go together or dalliances like Gwen Raiden and Nina and the mother of his son, Darla. It is evident in "The Girl in Question" that Bangel and Spuffy are still the end games for both souled vampires. The writing is very inconsistent about Cangel. I must say that as a couple, they looked great in "Waiting in the Wings", much better looking than Bangel, but that is just a superficial appearance level - TGIQ still shows the old obsessions are there.
 

FaithLehane16

"Five by Five."
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
866
Age
25
Location
United States
It would have worked out better if there had been a showrunner's bible stating what Cordelia was to do and be like and her relationship with Angel. It appears that some of the writers got the message that Cangel was real and the rest of them did not, preferring Faith and Angel to go together or dalliances like Gwen Raiden and Nina and the mother of his son, Darla. It is evident in "The Girl in Question" that Bangel and Spuffy are still the end games for both souled vampires. The writing is very inconsistent about Cangel. I must say that as a couple, they looked great in "Waiting in the Wings", much better looking than Bangel, but that is just a superficial appearance level - TGIQ still shows the old obsessions are there.
Waiting of the Wings was a cheap knock off of I Only Have Eyes For You.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
It's like the AtS writers went "Let's do a Cangel version of IOHEFY but instead of the Sadie Hawkins dance there'll be ballerinas!"

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
12,994
Age
39
Location
London, UK
Since I think Cangel is one of the worst things to happen in the history of television and makes it impossible for me to put AtS in even the top 100 for tv shows, it worked out very badly.
That's the second half of her Angel run though. The first half from from S1 to mid-S3 I enjoyed a lot. We got a lot of what we love about classic Cordy plus some good character growth besides. As friends and working together at least I thought Angel and Cordelia played off each other nicely. Think she added something different to the show which was needed.

I think the episodes are so different that calling one a knock-off of the other is a disservice to both.
Also I don't even think their that similar as episodes. Both really good though.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
The writers started Cangel late s2. By the first ep of s3 it was in full swing (matching shirts, James thought she's the woman Angel loved, his only 1-on-1 convos/scenes w her, of all people she's who they have tell him what Buffy would've wanted)

NeonSlayer

Potential
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
457
Age
32
I think the episodes are so different that calling one a knock-off of the other is a disservice to both.
Tell that to Joss Whedon since he's the one who wrote Angel verbally bringing up I Only Have Eyes For You. So the comparison is literally in the episode.

And it is a knockoff not only because it involves the main ship getting possessed by ghost lovers but because the dialogue between Angelus & Buffy during the possession in the BtVS episode was written to mirror Bangel while the dialogue between Angel & Cordelia during the possession in the AtS episode made no sense towards their relationship except an attempt to sound sexy.

"I'm only alive when you're inside me." Angel was never inside Cordelia and prior to that she only kissed him twice (once when she was kissing EVERY man to get rid of the visions, once with fake Angel in the fake at world to take the visions back). And she ends the episode happily with Groo showing it was one sided.

Everything about James & Grace was a reflection of Bangel and had deep meaning that furthered Buffy's character and was the catalyst for Angelus to realize he can't sire her since he won't risk feeling love. Nothing about the ballerina & her lover reflected Cangel or moved their stories forward.

That line would've worked had Buffy been the one to say it. That year she felt dead inside and Angel does make her feel more alive because of the intensity of her feelings for him & their connection. And that year she ended up using sex with a vampire to try to feel alive.
 
Last edited:

Puppet

Actual size.
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
5,757
Age
30
Location
Denmark
Black Thorn
Tell that to Joss Whedon since he's the one who wrote Angel verbally bringing up I Only Have Eyes For You. So the comparison is literally in the episode.

And it is a knockoff not only because it involves the main ship getting possessed by ghost lovers but because the dialogue between Angelus & Buffy during the possession in the BtVS episode was written to mirror Bangel while the dialogue between Angel & Cordelia during the possession in the AtS episode made no sense towards their relationship except an attempt to sound sexy.

"I'm only alive when you're inside me." Angel was never inside Cordelia and prior to that she only kissed him twice (once when she was kissing EVERY man to get rid of the visions, once with fake Angel in the fake at world to take the visions back). And she ends the episode happily with Groo showing it was one sided.

Everything about James & Grace was a reflection of Bangel and had deep meaning that furthered Buffy's character and was the catalyst for Angelus to realize he can't sire her since he won't risk feeling love. Nothing about the ballerina & her lover reflected Cangel or moved their stories forward.

That line would've worked had Buffy been the one to say it. That year she felt dead inside and Angel does make her feel more alive because of the intensity of her feelings for him & their connection. And that year she ended up using sex with a vampire to try to feel alive.
No offense, but you are clearly contradicting your own statement that it's a knockoff. Your text says that while one episode was clearly about Bangel, the other wasn't about Cangel; therefore, they are not similar in any way? The contradictions are confusing to me...
 

NeonSlayer

Potential
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
457
Age
32
No offense, but you are clearly contradicting your own statement that it's a knockoff. Your text says that while one episode was clearly about Bangel, the other wasn't about Cangel; therefore, they are not similar in any way? The contradictions are confusing to me...
I never said Waiting in the Wings isn't about Cangel. I was saying they did a horrible job of making the ghost possession mirror the ship. They made it "look Angel & Cordelia are kissing! doesn't it look hot?" The events of the ghosts don't match up with Cangel, they were just used to show Cangel almost have sex against their will.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
And it is a knockoff not only because it involves the main ship getting possessed by ghost lovers but because the dialogue between Angelus & Buffy during the possession in the BtVS episode was written to mirror Bangel while the dialogue between Angel & Cordelia during the possession in the AtS episode made no sense towards their relationship except an attempt to sound sexy.
Your second argument seems to be a strike against your thesis, no? And which direction relative to their relationship is the dialogue between Angel & Cordelia during the possession making sense, would you say?
 
Top Bottom