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Cordelia

Albion

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Feb 13, 2019
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I loved Cordy in season 2, she was amazing.

The Angel/Cordy relationship was good but I think it was pretty rushed. Her character was pretty much ruined in S4 though... :(
 

AngelsCordy

Townie
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I like Cordelia, she is by far one of my favorites. And I'm still not over the fact that they have destroyed their character :-(

And no, I do not think Angel and Cordelia's relationship was rushed. But everyone sees it differently.
 

Agent Z

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That she did. They had to make her into Saint Corduffy to be with Angel, making her a Buffy replacement for him after she just died and was resurrected. Her character didn't even care about the curse anymore.

Just to let you know Cordelia bullied and disrespected Buffy in the past, so it made absolutely no sense for Angel to respect Cordelia more than the Scoobies. And Cordelia turned into a Scooby for a bit when she was dating Xander.
Angel was a serial killer and rapist for hundreds of years. If he held Cordelia being a jerk in high school against her, he'd be a hypocrite and Cordelia did grow and change. This "Saint Cordelia" thing is greatly overstated. She was nicer than she started out on Buffy but that's got called character development and that is not a bad thing.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
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Messages
7,311
Sineya
Angel was a serial killer and rapist for hundreds of years. If he held Cordelia being a jerk in high school against her, he'd be a hypocrite and Cordelia did grow and change. This "Saint Cordelia" thing is greatly overstated. She was nicer than she started out on Buffy but that's got called character development and that is not a bad thing.
That whole Angel/Cordelia thing was totally wrong. Angel says Buffy is the love of his life & cant be with her because she needs to have someone
she can be in the sunlight with & then goes & starts up with Cordy. Not only is he saying everything he told Buffy was a lie but him dating
Cordelia is just rubbing salt in the wound he gave Buffy . And he supposed to be a good guy :rolleyes:

And Cordelia was nicer then she started out with but that called growing up . Willow changed too from when she started with Buffy so it
wasn't just Cordelia .
 

Agent Z

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That whole Angel/Cordelia thing was totally wrong. Angel says Buffy is the love of his life & cant be with her because she needs to have someone
she can be in the sunlight with & then goes & starts up with Cordy. Not only is he saying everything he told Buffy was a lie but him dating
Cordelia is just rubbing salt in the wound he gave Buffy . And he supposed to be a good guy :rolleyes:
You're making it sound way more malicious than it sounds. People's feelings change. Buffy was allowed to move on, why shouldn't Angel.

And Cordelia was nicer then she started out with but that called growing up .
Yeah, that's my point.
 
Joined
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That whole Angel/Cordelia thing was totally wrong. Angel says Buffy is the love of his life & cant be with her because she needs to have someone
she can be in the sunlight with & then goes & starts up with Cordy. Not only is he saying everything he told Buffy was a lie but him dating
Cordelia is just rubbing salt in the wound he gave Buffy
Sometimes people do things that are not good for them and contradict other things they did before. Both Angel and Cordelia are lonely - it certainly wasn't inevitable but it does make sense that two people who are so close and don't really have anyone else would develop feelings for each other. But just because they develop feelings for each other doesn't mean that it's not doomed to be the exact same disaster that Buffy and Angel was, and for all the same reasons. Had the writers decided to give CAngel a chance and not go with the ridiculous love triangle/ external obstacles route they would no doubt have reached the same conclusion that Angel reached over on Buffy - relationships between mortals and immortals cannot work.

But he's not 'betraying Buffy' because, three years later and after she has died and he has discovered he can live with her being dead, he is thinking about wanting to be with someone else. By that logic no one would be allowed a new partner if they had already told an earlier partner they were the 'love of their lives'. Circumstances and people change - not staying the same is not a betrayal.
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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Angel was a serial killer and rapist for hundreds of years. If he held Cordelia being a jerk in high school against her, he'd be a hypocrite and Cordelia did grow and change. This "Saint Cordelia" thing is greatly overstated. She was nicer than she started out on Buffy but that's got called character development and that is not a bad thing.
I think quite the opposite. I think Cordelia regressed into a much worse version of herself in Angel. I say Saint Corduffy, because they had her character be Buffy-like, but not a very good version. There are other people who think that. It's not just me.
 

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
650
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63
I think quite the opposite. I think Cordelia regressed into a much worse version of herself in Angel. I say Saint Corduffy, because they had her character be Buffy-like, but not a very good version. There are other people who think that. It's not just me.
I don’t even think Angel S3 Cordy is anything like Buffy either though. Buffy is nowhere near as much of a sap as that. S3 Cordy is just a absolutely nauseating so they can eventually say ‘oh my god you’re so perfect you’re too saintly for this world!’ . Like someone says that to Buffy she’d just roll her eyes and do a Doc style shove out of the way 😂 S3
They seemingly were trying to show us that all of Cordy’s flaws (that actually made her really interesting and fun) had gone or that she’d miraculously outgrew them, during 7 seasons they were never scared to show us that Buffy had flaws or that even at her most mature she was capable of being a bitch. And I love her for that 😂

There’s a phase in S3 where it feels like every episode they have someone tell Cordy how much of an amazing woman she is or that she’s otherworldly beautiful, how she’s Mom of the year, the bestest friend to everyone and best comforter of people. With Buffy they just SHOW her being awesome rather than have a backing orchestra of ‘you’re awesome Buffy!’
 
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thetopher

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Sineya
They seemingly were trying to show us that all of Cordy’s flaws (that actually made her really interesting and fun) had gone or that she’d miraculously outgrew them, during 7 seasons they were never scared to show us that Buffy had flaws or that even at her most mature she was capable of being a bitch. And I love her for that
Ironically by the end of S3 the show had highlighted Cordelia's main character flaw; her hubris. I can't think of another character who could be so easily duped into thinking that they had 'earned' becoming a higher power. I mean, after TWO whole years of being a seer Cordelia doesn't even question the whole 'oh, you get to ascend now to become a heavenly ultimate being' and leave behind all her friends (and the man she supposedly loved), most of whom will soldier on doing the actual work of making the world better.
But Cordelia thinks she's moved beyond this? Wow, high school Cordy would've been way more skeptical. She really did regress in S3.
 

Faded90

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Ironically by the end of S3 the show had highlighted Cordelia's main character flaw; her hubris. I can't think of another character who could be so easily duped into thinking that they had 'earned' becoming a higher power. I mean, after TWO whole years of being a seer Cordelia doesn't even question the whole 'oh, you get to ascend now to become a heavenly ultimate being' and leave behind all her friends (and the man she supposedly loved), most of whom will soldier on doing the actual work of making the world better.
But Cordelia thinks she's moved beyond this? Wow, high school Cordy would've been way more skeptical. She really did regress in S3.
Agreed, I never know if it was supposed to highlight her arrogance or if it just ended up being that way. Like Cordy’s fought alongside some awesome people for years who’ve done amazing selfless things for years themselves and she doesn’t question has she really earned the ability to just move right above them? Particularly Skips ‘well you didn’t abuse your powers for the whole 6 months or so you’ve had them’ erm well yeah she didn’t know how to use them so how could she abuse them?
 
thetopher
thetopher
I think its completely unintentional. It's just bad storytelling to write Cordelia out of the season.
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Cordy should have stayed on Buffy.

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
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8,293
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UK
I can understand why people condemn Cordy for believing that the PTB want her, but I don't think it's that surprising. From her pov, they've chosen Angel, a vampire, for their agent on earth. He's killed thousands and has only been actively doing good for 5 years, about the same time as Cordy herself, and remember she's born witness to his atrocities first hand. They gave the visions to Doyle so he could help Angel, and Doyle wasn't really a very obvious champion as he too had his flaws. Doyle passed those visions to Cordy, one would think with the blessing of the PTB or they could have removed them. She suffered terrible pains from the visions and agreed to become half demon. I don't think, from Cordy's pov, when Skip says he's from the Powers and they've chosen her, to Cordy it probably seems just like them, 'the powers that screw you' as Fred calls them, to do such a strange and random thing.
 
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But Cordelia thinks she's moved beyond this? Wow, high school Cordy would've been way more skeptical. She really did regress in S3.
The thing with high school Cordy is her response to being told she was ascending to a higher plane would be to say, 'yeah - right - and what's in this for me?'

Cordelia always has her eye on how she can benefit: 'these boys are rich, Buffy - and I'm not being shallow!' She forces Angel to start a detective agency (that wasn't actually ever on the cards until she made it a thing) just so she can have a job and her first reaction to her visions is to try and get rid of them. It is only when they start to make her feel important and useful that she comes down on the side of keeping them at all costs.

And I'm not saying that to put her down, I love Cordelia - she is in my top 3 characters across the whole Buffyverse and is one half of my OTP. But part of her character is being mercenary and self serving - not to other people's detriment, they aren't necessarily 'bad' attributes, but she looks out for herself and she wants a return on her investments - as well she might.

And then she's offered a chance to just leave everyone behind and go up somewhere vague and do something vague and she accepts it as 'the right thing to do' without questioning at all how this will make her life any better?

The only reason she does that (poor writing aside) is because they've removed any textual acknowledgement of her harder side. Cordelia has always had loads of drive and ambition and on Angel she is using that to forcibly keep the agency afloat, on not much more than sheer willpower - because while she is self centred, the fact she gets sh*t done - even if for self centred reasons - is actually a strength. She is proactive and capable and bulldozes her way through obstacles in her path - that's how she got to be Queen bee of the school and that's how she is keeping running the business side of their business. And it's great to see that level of grit and determination and drive on a female character ... but then it's all jettisoned to make her soft and compassionate and everyone's confidante.

It's one thing to become more empathetic and to soften hard edges as you get older - it's another to lose all self interest entirely. No one should ever get rid of all their self interest - unless they aspire to be nothing more than a doormat.

And the really annoying thing is that as they attempt to build her up as this Queen of mercy, that's when they start having her make really big mistakes - that they never acknowledge are mistakes. Like when she talks to Gunn in Double or Nothing - what she is wittering on about is nothing to do with his actual problem, our lady of the compassionate heart has totally misunderstood, and therefore her advice is completely wrong ... never mentioned. It's like she didn't just get it 100% wrong at all. And then not too long after we get her worst mistake of listening to Skip.

While they're trying to make her into the flawless heart of the team all they actually do is turn her into unbridled ego and incompetence ... and I don't think that's on purpose. Whereas before, yes she was blunt, yes she was shallow, yes she could be mean ... but she got things done and she brought everyone else along with her.

It's just a bad handling of her character ... and - worst of all - she's boring.
 

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
650
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63
The thing with high school Cordy is her response to being told she was ascending to a higher plane would be to say, 'yeah - right - and what's in this for me?'

Cordelia always has her eye on how she can benefit: 'these boys are rich, Buffy - and I'm not being shallow!' She forces Angel to start a detective agency (that wasn't actually ever on the cards until she made it a thing) just so she can have a job and her first reaction to her visions is to try and get rid of them. It is only when they start to make her feel important and useful that she comes down on the side of keeping them at all costs.

And I'm not saying that to put her down, I love Cordelia - she is in my top 3 characters across the whole Buffyverse and is one half of my OTP. But part of her character is being mercenary and self serving - not to other people's detriment, they aren't necessarily 'bad' attributes, but she looks out for herself and she wants a return on her investments - as well she might.

And then she's offered a chance to just leave everyone behind and go up somewhere vague and do something vague and she accepts it as 'the right thing to do' without questioning at all how this will make her life any better?

The only reason she does that (poor writing aside) is because they've removed any textual acknowledgement of her harder side. Cordelia has always had loads of drive and ambition and on Angel she is using that to forcibly keep the agency afloat, on not much more than sheer willpower - because while she is self centred, the fact she gets sh*t done - even if for self centred reasons - is actually a strength. She is proactive and capable and bulldozes her way through obstacles in her path - that's how she got to be Queen bee of the school and that's how she is keeping running the business side of their business. And it's great to see that level of grit and determination and drive on a female character ... but then it's all jettisoned to make her soft and compassionate and everyone's confidante.

It's one thing to become more empathetic and to soften hard edges as you get older - it's another to lose all self interest entirely. No one should ever get rid of all their self interest - unless they aspire to be nothing more than a doormat.

And the really annoying thing is that as they attempt to build her up as this Queen of mercy, that's when they start having her make really big mistakes - that they never acknowledge are mistakes. Like when she talks to Gunn in Double or Nothing - what she is wittering on about is nothing to do with his actual problem, our lady of the compassionate heart has totally misunderstood, and therefore her advice is completely wrong ... never mentioned. It's like she didn't just get it 100% wrong at all. And then not too long after we get her worst mistake of listening to Skip.

While they're trying to make her into the flawless heart of the team all they actually do is turn her into unbridled ego and incompetence ... and I don't think that's on purpose. Whereas before, yes she was blunt, yes she was shallow, yes she could be mean ... but she got things done and she brought everyone else along with her.

It's just a bad handling of her character ... and - worst of all - she's boring.
Amazing post! You’ve captured my thoughts in a far more articulate way than I ever could 😂 I loved ‘I want to help people but I also want things for myself and to get paid’ Cordy rather than ‘all I want is to help people and I care about nothing else’ Cordy. Character development is great but not when it takes your most fun character and turns her into a bit of a sap. She cares about everyone and no one at the same time. ‘Angel’s feelings are the ones I care about. He’s my priority’ bleugh because apparently friends mean nothing anymore, she’s completely lost her own identity because now her identity appears to purely be to help Angel. She has no path of her own anymore, just to help Angel on his
 

thetopher

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@Myheadsgonenumb : You summed up what many love about Cordelia as a character; she knew herself and she knew others. She was- about all- practical about how the world works, which probably had a lot to do with her upbringing and her materialist parents. She is not one for sentiment but she can see the value in others.
For example I never got the impression that Cordelia ever liked Buffy, but (after S1) she always knew that Buffy mattered, and so she did what she could to help, as long as it didn't put herself out to much because Buffy has 'other people' for the boring/tedious scutt work. But a bit of insight or a hard dose of reality? That was her wheelhouse.

With Angel I think she became more invested because 1) he and his mission DID become a meal ticket but 2) also Cordelia HAD to invest more because Angel was an impractical, naval gazing loner-lunkhead who didn't have that many people/connections to the world helping out. So Cordy becomes more important in the grander scheme of things- especially after Doyle's death and her gaining the visions- and she ended up liking it. Her pride, her ego, her need to be important- just like in high school- was reassured by becoming vision-girl.

But yeah, in S3 they made her boring; not spikey, over-idealized and matyr-y (I can't stand 'That Vision Thing'- where is Cordelia's anger at what is being done to her? She's not pissed enough!).

I always figure- as a way to explain her defanging- post Birthday- was that Chip pulled some subtle mind-control on her after the 'alternate reality' that pandered to her self-image (even without the visions she was a massive success/famous, but she wasn't really important anymore, and she needed that now) by making her 'part mystery-demon'. And so when she offered 'the most importantest job' he could nudge her just enough into taking it
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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I don’t even think Angel S3 Cordy is anything like Buffy either though. Buffy is nowhere near as much of a sap as that. S3 Cordy is just a absolutely nauseating so they can eventually say ‘oh my god you’re so perfect you’re too saintly for this world!’ . Like someone says that to Buffy she’d just roll her eyes and do a Doc style shove out of the way 😂 S3
They seemingly were trying to show us that all of Cordy’s flaws (that actually made her really interesting and fun) had gone or that she’d miraculously outgrew them, during 7 seasons they were never scared to show us that Buffy had flaws or that even at her most mature she was capable of being a bitch. And I love her for that 😂

There’s a phase in S3 where it feels like every episode they have someone tell Cordy how much of an amazing woman she is or that she’s otherworldly beautiful, how she’s Mom of the year, the bestest friend to everyone and best comforter of people. With Buffy they just SHOW her being awesome rather than have a backing orchestra of ‘you’re awesome Buffy!’
That is why I said that Saint Corduffy is a poor version of what Buffy would be.
 
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