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Cordelia's saintness

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
#1
Hey all,

So I am at a Ats season 3 re-watch and I wanted to discuss Cordelia's saintness. I have read a lot of comments from @MrPole and others were they mentionned Cordelia's saintness and how she got a bit OCC in season 3. So my questions are:

Do you think Cordelia's character changed in season 3? If so when?
Why do you think she changed?
What example do you have of her saintness?

I do agree with this theory and really saw it in the episode called Provider where Angel takes on multiple cases to make more money for Connor. There Cordelia convince Angel that the mission is what matters and not money. So I can go on board and say Cordelia think the mission is important but her not wanting more money? Impossible!

What do you think?
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#2
My memory of AtS is not great, but the worst bit for me, I think, is that Cordelia spends the last episodes of the season caring for a grieving Angel after Connor is taken to Hell. That is the last we see of the real Cordelia until You're Welcome. It is not fun to see your favourite character act OOC for one and a half seasons, before getting one pity episode.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#3
Do you think Cordelia's character changed in season 3? If so when?

Yes. I see it already in Pylea in s2. They were setting her up back then. But generally throughout season 3 it’s not really what she does but what she doesn’t. She doesn’t have that same brashness, doesn’t make remarks regarding making money, she takes to taking care of Connor like she is a natural born mom-like figure (when she is supposed to be a 21 with no siblings...), she is completely clueless of the whole dork!angel drooling all over her when Cordy is generally very intuitive (and also to Fred’s trying to tell her about Angel....) and then after the Connor fiasco she ignores Wesley forgets that he is one of her closest friends who was with her last year when Angel fired them. She is hyperfocused on Angel whereas before she was about the work and the team. I’m about to start my s3 rewatch I’ll keep a closer watch this time to see if there are turning points that I can better pinpoint. I watch s3 the Least because of my deep seeded hate.

Why do you think she changed?

That’s pretty simple. Cangel. Cordy needed to be more like Buffy. She needed to become less of a side kick and more of a hero (and a martyr to boot) to make her more compatible with Angel. And Angel had to become sillier, take himself less seriously, he had to be more Xander-like.

What example do you have of her saintness?

Back in Pylea she starts her sainthood by leaving Groo who she has apparently fallen in love with in like a day because he is hot. In season 3, In heartthrob she says something like “i miss Buffy too” I vividly remember on first watch thinking - “huh?” Sure I don’t think Cordy wanted Buffy dead but “missing her” when she could hardly stand her... I don’t buy it. Then how she treats Darla in Offspring, she is overly maternal to her, super concerned with her when she doesn’t even know if she is carrying a demon spawn (something Cordy knows a thing or two about!). Then birthday ... Where she gives it all up and tells Skip to make her a demon without much of a struggle.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Thanks for the long response, I agree with everything!
GraceK
GraceK
Love this whole post

Taake

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Black Thorn
#4
All that @dcai0830 said pretty much.

Suddenly Cordy lost everything that had made her Cordy and she became this self-sacrificing, Angel-obsessed, goody-two shoes without it really being explained. Friends? How needs to care about them when you have a love interest to focus on? Screw Wes, and who cares about Gunn? Fred is just an annoying child anyway. Speaking of kids, look how maternal and sweet I am with a mother-to-be and later Connor. Cordy became ridiculously washed out to fit into the category of "Angel's potential girlfriend" which apparently meant she couldn't be selfish, vain, sassy, money-minded or any of those things that previously made her a person.

And they weren't subtle about it either. Remember when vaguely "demony" Cordy suddenly magically "cleanses" the confused and hurt Connor with a bright shining light. WHAT? No, no, no, you have to earn developments like that. You can't just go "she's a demon now, she flies and has 'good' powers like magical mental healing" but let's not talk too much about it. This is just a way to explain why she can handle the visions and why she can't have a normal life outside of Angel.

It's too much like the latest Vampire Diaries novel I read
Where Elena, with a possessed Damon, looks inside of herself then suddenly goes oh look at this power I just realized I have! And unfolds, I kid you not, RAINBOW COLORED "Wings of Redemption" and then two other seats of specific healing Wings that cures him of all his ailments... if it was NEVER part of the lore before, you need to set it up and you need to explain it properly. It. Can't.Just.Happen. if you want people to buy it.

Then Connor gets taken and Wesley, who's been a friend of Cordy's since season 1, whom she's known since Buffy season 3, and with whom she was left and continued the business with when Angel tossed them both of in season 2... she just forgets about him? Because Angel. Yes, she suffers with Angel. But the earlier Cordy wouldn't have cared what anyone thought, she would've gone to Wesley as well, if she cared about him... which obviously she didn't anymore. Because Angel.

So yeah, basically an inorganic weird character development with the single purpose of making her nothing but Angel's love interest. Which is a great disservice to her character.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Yeah it made no sense that she would just forget about Wes!

PaulParmar1

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Sineya
#6
As Cordelia's supporter I am curious to know what you guys would say: @PaulParmar1 @ChaseRules @Cordy_Chase
Here's my thoughts! I adored Cordelia in S3. She was my fav in that season believe it or not. Imo unlike everyone else. Yes she got kinder but she didn't change completely for me. She still had the sass that was Cordelia. And I just saw it as her growth.
Imo she's fantastic the first 3 seasons & she's the heart of the show.
S4 is a different story but that's how I feel.
And unlike some here. I loved Cangel & they had some of their best moments in S3 & my fav episode in Angel is Waiting In The Wings so I love Cordelia S3.
 

Cordy_Chase

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Sineya
#7
As Cordelia's supporter I am curious to know what you guys would say: @PaulParmar1 @ChaseRules @Cordy_Chase
Warning: Please bear with me, I've not rewatched this area and therefore have a limited recall but here I go:

I suddenly see it from a psychological angle.

It was in that final moment of WITW when Angel started to propose that step in their relationship after she felt violated by the haunted ballet dressing room that she had some form of subconscious breakdown that set her character off balance.

Dismissing Angel mid-conversation to fling herself into Groo's arms and proceeding to ignore/distance herself from him while turning Groo into a self-pleasing sex doll was a regression to her Queen C persona. If the fact that she made Groo who happens to be another champion up to be Angel's Pylean clone is any indication, this came from a subconscious fear of her feelings for Angel and was supplementing a safer, as in curse-free, version.

Ironic that I am referred to as a supporter because I hated this behavior. My heart broke for Angel In 'Couplet', as he watched pained and forlorn while Groo got to be the hero, Cordelia's hero and receive that 'Reptile Boy'-esque glomp embrace that's supposed to be his.
That vacation was the last straw, I get the reason both went that route, to escape from temptation and pain at least for a bit but it was still idiotic! I digress.

Now, post-vacation is where we have the saint period and it is a deeper disassociation.
Here, Cordelia's behavior teeters the scale in the other direction.
She more or less went into a state of emotional shock in response to Connor's kidnapping and out of guilt overly concentrated on everyone but herself.
This meaning how she didn't let herself feel Connor's loss personally (whether or not you choose to see her as Connor's surrogate mother she loved him but Connor does in ATF) and was indifferent towards Wesley down to dismissing their history and sibling-esque closeness to devote all her focus to doting on Angel, the secondary victum.
It's not until 'The Price' when she opens up to Angel that she feels responsible for not being there.

Then there was that whole cleansing thing with teenage Connor. That downright sounded like Jasmine had already come to Cordy-town.

Let's also notice how her fashion sense is suddenly OOC and bad. She frumpily and house-wife-esque. Not to mention that horrible bedsheet she wore in 'Tomorrow' and that hair, ugh (Charisma is gorgeous but that hair was just so wrong)! This is Cordelia Chase!
This might have been self-punishment. It's common for one feeling guilt to settle for less than their abilities/potential.

In relation to the teenage Connor thing, the popular theory is that Jasmine's influence was already present in Cordelia, that it was her powers/essence that she was given in 'Birthday' and furthermore that the so-called "cleansing' is actually what planted Jasmine's seed of disillusion in Connor.
I, personally, can NOT get on board with that because it doesn't match the specific revelation in 'Inside Out' that Jasmine's control started with Lorne's antidote in 'Spin the Bottle'. Then again most of the reveals in 'Inside Out' are questionable because Skip was a liar/deceiver and Jasmine an exaggerator.

It's tragic that Cordelia's character isn't righted again until 'You're Welcome', until she dies. :'(
 
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MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
I love all of this!

Mrs Gordo

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#8
Then again most of the reveals in 'Inside Out' are questionable because Skip was a liar/deceiver and Jasmine an exaggerator.
What reason would Skip have to lie? At this point Jasmine is about to be born? I think the writers were using this as a point for exposition (and honestly I think for a little bit of retconning to explain away some of the s3 weirdness).
 

Cordy_Chase

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Sineya
#9
What reason would Skip have to lie? At this point Jasmine is about to be born? I think the writers were using this as a point for exposition (and honestly I think for a little bit of retconning to explain away some of the s3 weirdness).
Bad wording (I'd change it but 15 minutes passes like 5!).
I believe a lot of the 'Inside Out' explanations were a bad forced attempt to establish Jasmine as having been a process that spanned the entire series.
You can't forget though, Skip was deceiving Cordy the whole time he was "guiding" her.
The whole what-if!verse in 'Birthday' was half-assed including the scenario at the penthouse party it was built on.
 
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Mrs Gordo

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#10
Bad wording (I'd change it but 15 minutes passes like 5!).
I believe a lot of the 'Inside Out' explanations were a bad forced attempt to establish Jasmine as having been a process that spanned the entire series.
You can't forget though, Skip was deceiving Cordy the whole time he was "guiding" her.
The whole what-if!verse in 'Birthday' was half-assed including the scenario at the penthouse party it was built on.
I agree that Skip was playing Cordy during, Birthday especially, (which I personally think was not an AU but pure fabrication) but at the point in Insude Out I’m not sure that he has any reason to deceive. So I kinda believe him. Who knows how far back it goes?
 
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Cordy_Chase

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Sineya
#11
I agree that Skip was playing Cordy during, Birthday especially, (which I personally think was not an AU but pure fabrication) but at the point in Insude Out I’m not sure that he has any reason to deceive. So I kinda believe him. Who knows how far back it goes?
No, you're right, my beef with 'Inside Out' is with the writers.
I concur that the whatif!verse in 'Birthday' wasn't a real AU but an elaborate backdrop hence her synapse overwrite being poor though I believe Angel's condition was a spec of truth within it.

I also don't buy that Cordy wasn't supposed to inherit the visions. The PTB chose a vampire as their champion and somehow THAT isn't a fumble but an average girl who happens to be that champion's only other ally becoming the vessel for their messages was? I don't think so.
Not to mention they refused Angel's request to remove them from her.
 

Cordy_Chase

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Sineya
#12
Warning: Please bear with me, I've not rewatched this area and therefore have a limited recall but here I go:

I suddenly see it from a psychological angle.

It was in that final moment of WITW when Angel started to propose that step in their relationship after she felt violated by the haunted ballet dressing room that she had some form of subconscious breakdown that set her character off balance.

Dismissing Angel mid-conversation to fling herself into Groo's arms and proceeding to ignore/distance herself from him while turning Groo into a self-pleasing sex doll was a regression to her Queen C persona. If the fact that she made Groo who happens to be another champion up to be Angel's Pylean clone is any indication, this came from a subconscious fear of her feelings for Angel and was supplementing a safer, as in curse-free, version.

Ironic that I am referred to as a supporter because I hated this behavior. My heart broke for Angel In 'Couplet', as he watched pained and forlorn while Groo got to be the hero, Cordelia's hero and receive that 'Reptile Boy'-esque glomp embrace that's supposed to be his.
That vacation was the last straw, I get the reason both went that route, to escape from temptation and pain at least for a bit but it was still idiotic! I digress.

Now, post-vacation is where we have the saint period and it is a deeper disassociation.
Here, Cordelia's behavior teeters the scale in the other direction.
She more or less went into a state of emotional shock in response to Connor's kidnapping and out of guilt overly concentrated on everyone but herself.
This meaning how she didn't let herself feel Connor's loss personally (whether or not you choose to see her as Connor's surrogate mother she loved him but Connor does in ATF) and was indifferent towards Wesley down to dismissing their history and sibling-esque closeness to devote all her focus to doting on Angel, the secondary victum.
It's not until 'The Price' when she opens up to Angel that she feels responsible for not being there.

Then there was that whole cleansing thing with teenage Connor. That downright sounded like Jasmine had already come to Cordy-town.

Let's also notice how her fashion sense is suddenly OOC and bad. She frumpily and house-wife-esque. Not to mention that horrible bedsheet she wore in 'Tomorrow' and that hair, ugh (Charisma is gorgeous but that hair was just so wrong)! This is Cordelia Chase!
This might have been self-punishment. It's common for one feeling guilt to settle for less than their abilities/potential.

In relation to the teenage Connor thing, the popular theory is that Jasmine's influence was already present in Cordelia, that it was her powers/essence that she was given in 'Birthday' and furthermore that the so-called "cleansing' is actually what planted Jasmine's seed of disillusion in Connor.
I, personally, can NOT get on board with that because it doesn't match the specific revelation in 'Inside Out' that Jasmine's control started with Lorne's antidote in 'Spin the Bottle'. Then again most of the reveals in 'Inside Out' are questionable because Skip was a liar/deceiver and Jasmine an exaggerator.

It's tragic that Cordelia's character isn't righted again until 'You're Welcome', until she dies. :'(
I must make an additional point which I can't believe escaped me.

Cordelia subconsciously blocked out her feelings for Angel not just out of fear of the curse but also a feeling of inadequacy.

Cordelia: Hello?! It felt like I was talking, my lips were moving
and...
Xander: (shakes his head). Give it up, Cordy. You're never gonna get
between those two. Believe me, I know.

- BtVS 2x6 Halloween

Buffy was practically brainwashed into her mind as this epic forbidden love of Angel's that no one else could ever live up to and thusly she blinded herself to Angel's obvious attraction to her.

In turn, Angel subconsciously blocked his feelings for Cordelia out of an unwillingness to love like that again, to protect her and their friendship by telling himself he was inadequate.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#13
Cordelia subconsciously blocked out her feelings for Angel not just out of fear of the curse but also a feeling of inadequacy.
I never got the impression that Cordelia felt inadequate. I can understand if that is your head canon and that's understandable I have my fair share of head canon regarding the Cordy and Angel dynamic as well, I feel the writers left us high and dry on it - but can you provide any textual evidence of her feeling inadequate in comparison to Buffy?

One of the things that annoys me the most is that while Spuffy does a great job of acknowledging the Buffy/Angel romance, the AtS writers in setting up Cangel completely ignores the Buffy/Angel romance. The show was just trying to forget Buffy ever happened for a season and a half. So I never saw any text or subtext that Cordelia was exhibiting avoidant behavior due to how she thought Angel felt about Buffy. Nor did I see any indication that Angel was exhibiting any hesitation in forming a relationship with Cordelia due to Buffy. although, I think that would have been a very interesting story line! As a matter of fact, he seems to forget his curse all together and agrees to meet her at the bluffs to purportedly start a relationship. Nevermind that she is also, young, mostly human, mortal, and that she may (or may not) make him happy enough to remove his soul.
 
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