• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Could there have been more Mohra Demons?

LilahFan

Townie
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
47
Age
33
In "I Will Remember You" Angel becomes human again when his blood mixes with this demons in battle after he stabs it. Then we all know what happened after that, but I was thinking...

Could there have been more of these types of demons around? I don't recall it being said that this particular demon in that episode was the last of it's kind so what if they looked to locate more of them to potentially change other vampires back to being human?
  • Harmony -She comes to LA to reunite with Cordelia and briefly looks to change her ways. Perhaps this could have been a solution.
  • Alonna Gunn - Might could have been a way to save her instead of having Gunn kill her off.
  • Darla - When she's pregnant with Connor maybe this could have been a thought to try. Connor was a special child being the only one in history to be giving life by two vampires, 1 with a soul. So perhaps this soul in connor could have some how healed Darla of her illness before or after he's born if that makes sense.
  • Sam Lawson - As far as I know he's the only one Angel ever sired after getting a soul. So what if all those years later he'd attempt this to give the man his life back?
Angel couldn't remain human because of his destiny but I don't see why they couldn't explore this at least one time on one of the others such as the ones listed above, or someone else I may have left out that someone else could name. Thoughts?
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
961
Age
38
Who is in the drivers seat? I mean, Angel's soul could take over, but everyone else was still dead. Does the soul return? Or does it just exorcise the demon, and leave a living shell? That would be my question.
 

NileQT87

Billowy Coat, King of Pain
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
401
Age
32
Location
San Diego, CA, USA
Add Mohra blood to a soulless demon and you're more likely to get a body that is just a corpse with nothing in it. The demon is the only being in a soulless vampire. The human is gone to the ether. It only worked on Angel because there was something human left over to animate the restored human body once the demon was expelled.

Likewise, if you tried to exorcise the demon out of a vampire with a soul (such as the Hollower in the original comic run), the body is going to turn to dust, regardless of the human soul in there, because the demon is the only thing animating that corpse and converted the body into its own species. Suck the demon out of a vampire and the body just turns to dust.
 

Grace

Destructo-Girl
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
1,788
Black Thorn
So why don’t Willow and other witches just re-ensoul vampires and use Mohra blood to turn them human?
Sounds horrific to me. Based on Angel and Spike’s experiences, it’s an incredible amount of mental anguish. These people who most likely died as innocent people have probably gone on to kill family members and friends, and this would be forcing them to live with that without consent. Giving Angel his soul back was a *punishment*. What do they do if these newly human ex-vamps can’t deal with it? Lock them up until they die again?
 

Cohen

Warrior
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
1,593
Location
Neptune, California
It’s an interesting moral dilemma. In essence they all should be punished for their crimes. It’s as if the slayer is the death penalty and re-ensoulment is a life sentence. Which is true justice?
 

Grace

Destructo-Girl
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
1,788
Black Thorn
It’s an interesting moral dilemma. In essence they all should be punished for their crimes. It’s as if the slayer is the death penalty and re-ensoulment is a life sentence. Which is true justice?
I disagree. The soul was not present for the crimes, so I view re-ensoulment as unfair and not justice. The only solution for me, in almost all cases, is to slay the demon and allow the soul to remain free. (Spike choosing his soul is an interesting wrinkle but at least in that case there was an element of consent, even if it couldn’t be fully informed.)
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Add Mohra blood to a soulless demon and you're more likely to get a body that is just a corpse with nothing in it. The demon is the only being in a soulless vampire. The human is gone to the ether. It only worked on Angel because there was something human left over to animate the restored human body once the demon was expelled.
I've always seen the Buffyverse version of the soul as inspired by the Luthrean belief that while the soul connects us to the divine, you need a functioning brain to have consciousness and it is electrochemical reactions in the cells that animate the body. When Buffy looses consciousness in Prophecy Girl, it is because her brain lacks oxygen, not because The Master sucked her soul out. Every single vampire in the 'verse describe a continuity in consciousness and memory. I suspect a soulless human in the Buffyverse would be like an intelligent animal, ruled by instinct alone, rather than a compulsion towards good or evil.
 

Cohen

Warrior
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
1,593
Location
Neptune, California
BUT those people (most of them) had their lives cut short. Giving them a soul and rehumanizing them would give them a second chance to live their lives. Angel was a sh!tty human and hell on earth Vampire so his plight is justice. There are probably many vampires who also would get proper justice through re-ensoulment. I do think it is all an interesting moral delimma.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
BUT those people (most of them) had their lives cut short. Giving them a soul and rehumanizing them would give them a second chance to live their lives. Angel was a sh!tty human and hell on earth Vampire so his plight is justice. There are probably many vampires who also would get proper justice through re-ensoulment. I do think it is all an interesting moral delimma.
I don't get it. Do you want to see them punished or saved?
 

LilahFan

Townie
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
47
Age
33
I assumed getting to be human again would give them their soul back.
 

Grace

Destructo-Girl
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
1,788
Black Thorn
I suspect a soulless human in the Buffyverse would be like an intelligent animal, ruled by instinct alone, rather than a compulsion towards good or evil.
Ryan, the soulless boy in I've Got You Under My Skin, seemed pretty evil. The demon who possessed him said his mind "was the blackest hell I've ever known." The demon preferred to die than remain in the boy.

It's a one-off, but we do have an example.
 

NileQT87

Billowy Coat, King of Pain
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
401
Age
32
Location
San Diego, CA, USA
Ryan didn't have a conscience. The "What soul?" has to be more akin to how the Mayor sold his soul, even though it's to be collected later upon his death, rather than actually being soulless. The Ryan example has to be a metaphoric lack of soul like the Mayor's in the sense of him not using it. You don't have to be soulless to be an evil human. W&H and various other evil humans (Warren, Marcus Roscoe, etc...) prove that. Look at how serial killer Marcus, whose completely human soul shared a body with the same Angelus whom Angel always kept caged and fought, pretty much let the demon have the reigns, giving him everything he wanted and got off on it. Orpheus proves that Angelus and Liam/Angel are completely separate beings. Spin the Bottle even further solidifies that an 17-year-old Angel is very simply Liam.

The soul in the Jossverse is an animus and the full original human being. The Master outright refers to the existence of demon souls, which backs this aspect of the mythology that is repeated ad nauseum. If you don't like it, then you've just made Billy Fordham right about vampirism being immortality for the human. It's emphatically not. Demons have demon souls in the sense of their own unique anima that is not the same as what used to belong to the deceased body a vampire set up shop in. Vampire demons are a blank template who are evil in terms of human morality because their survival instinct demands it. Given they have no unique personality of their own, all of that must come from the memories of the host. With the host's memories and personality, a vampire might seem especially like their host, but they're not even the same being. That personality becomes perverted due to the animalistic survival instinct. Each vampire is either hampered or enhanced in its evil by whatever the intelligence, personality type or memories of its host has given them.

Also, Liam wasn't a sh!tty (or evil) human, but rather a self-destructive one deeply unhappy with his life and all of his highly-intelligent interests gone unfulfilled, but still capable of love (his sister). Angel proves every day that there was immense good, love and morality buried deep within. He didn't even stop being Catholic even when faced with a polytheistic multiverse, despite having issues with his father's hypocrisy. He's literally Angel and Angel is him, but with Angelus also whispering in Liam's ear and Liam being horrified by it and fighting back all the urges of his demonic body that he has to nourish to keep living in. Angel is the result of Liam having a come to Jesus moment after seeing what was done in his body, with his memories, with his hands and being horrified to the point of becoming emotionally and socially crippled. That he fought the demon so hard, and more so than other soulful and ex-vampires we've seen, proves Liam's moral core, even if his apathy towards the human race's inhumanity to each other had been extreme by the end. That restoration of faith in humanity he lost as a human was what was needed for Liam/Angel to become a hero who wanted to help because he could.
 
Last edited:

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
961
Age
38
As the man said, "Die monster, you have no place in this world." Vampires are reanimated corspes possessed by demons, and strong evidence exists that the soul of the murdered human is unable to pass on. Justice is the destruction of the undead. Second, gypsies don't care about Justice, they care about vengeance. And make no mistake, Prince Angelus hunting rats in an alley is vengeance.
 
Top Bottom