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Dark Willow - Terrible Mistake or Neccessity

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
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The Mayor was "Lawful Evil," and probably outranked everyone, with the exception of the Master. I mean, look how quickly he co-ops or defeats Spike, Trick and Faith? He could keep ... sigh, Demon Biker Gangs away from Sunnydale.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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@WillowFromBuffy After the Harvest the master takes over the world or at least the town and the mayor is nowhere to be seen in The Wishverse. With vampires overrunning the town with confidence, it seems like the initiative are no where to be seen ergo no Adam. Glory would never turn up in Sunnydale if Buffy wasn't there because the monks wouldn't create Dawn and send her to Sunnydale.
 

NeonSlayer

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@NeonSlayer It went against her personality and her values at the start of the series.
Willow stopped having those values since becoming a witch. Heck, she started changing in personality as soon as she gained external confidence. In The Pack Willow was really patient & encouraging towards Xander when she was tutoring him and Xander started calling himself stupid. By Becoming Willow was impatient & annoyed "If you're just going to waste my time" towards Buffy when she was tutoring her and Buffy called herself stupid.

With the magics, Willow was all about shortcuts, quick fixes, excitement, etc. The summer between s2-3 Willow tried spells that blew out the power in the neighborhood. S1 Willow wouldn't have been that reckless.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
By Becoming Willow was impatient & annoyed "If you're just going to waste my time" towards Buffy when she was tutoring her and Buffy called herself stupid.
Willow only says that to get Buffy to stop disparaging herself. That Willow is willing to use her free time to tutor Buffy with so much empathy and patience is really to her credit.

Buffy: "I'm a moron?"

Willow: "Will you stop that? You're not stupid! You've just had a lot on your mind. You can learn this real easily, but if you're just gonna give up, then don't waste my time."

Buffy: "Wow. You really *are* a good teacher."

And when she was done there, she taught herself a spell to save Angel that was too hard for even Giles ... and performed it twice at the risk of her life and sanity.
 

NeonSlayer

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Willow only says that to get Buffy to stop disparaging herself. That Willow is willing to use her free time to tutor Buffy with so much empathy and patience is really to her credit.

Buffy: "I'm a moron?"

Willow: "Will you stop that? You're not stupid! You've just had a lot on your mind. You can learn this real easily, but if you're just gonna give up, then don't waste my time."

Buffy: "Wow. You really *are* a good teacher."

And when she was done there, she taught herself a spell to save Angel that was too hard for even Giles ... and performed it twice at the risk of her life and sanity.
I'm not saying she was a bitch in that scene. I'm saying compare it to how s1 Willow handled the exact same situation.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
I'm not saying she was a bitch in that scene. I'm saying compare it to how s1 Willow handled the exact same situation.
She handles it perfectly. Buffy needs to pass this exam. Joyce does not know Buffy is a slayer, so if she fails, she will have no credible excuse. Buffy is not paying attention and is sabotaging herself with self disparaging outbursts. Willow manages to refute Buffy's claim that she is stupid and show sympathy with Buffy's situation, while still making it clear that the learning process can only work if Buffy participates ... all in one quick utterance.

How would you have handled the situation?
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
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How? I have never seen a scene?
It's not a scene. Willow mentioned it in Dead Man's Party:

Dead Man's Party - Buffy Episode 36 Transcript

Cut to the Espresso Pump. Cut inside. The camera pans across the
interior and stops on Buffy and Willow sitting on stools at a table with
a couple of drinks.

Willow: I mean, I'm not a full-fledged witch. That takes years. I just
did a couple pagan blessings and . . . a teeny glamour to hide a zit.

Buffy: Does it scare you?

Willow: It has. I tried to communicate with the spirit world, and I
*so* wasn't ready for that. It's like being pulled apart inside. Plus I
blew the power for our whole block. Big scare.

Buffy: I wish I could've been there with you.

Willow: Me, too. I really freaked out.

Buffy: I am sorry.

Willow: It's okay. I understand you having to bail. I can forgive that.
Mm, I have to make allowances for what you're going through a-and be a
grownup about it. (gives Buffy a slightly smug look)

Buffy: (smiles) You're really enjoying this whole moral superiority
thing, aren't you?

Willow: (smiles) It's like a drug!
 

NeonSlayer

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Thanks, but I needed more back up than that. I am going to argue that she was trying to practice magics there, NOT abuse them.
Willow didn't seem to know the difference between "practicing magic" and toying with the forces of darkness. It's like someone learning about swimming and instead of going to a guppy pool lesson with floaties on at the YMCA she jumps into a shark infested part of the Pacific Ocean thinking she's not going to drown or get eaten alive.

Willow went straight for the advanced stuff and it wasn't until the summer between 6-7 that she bothered to get the beginner's training to have a proper foundation. You should attend driver's ed before speeding a racecar at Daytona.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Willow went straight for the advanced stuff and it wasn't until the summer between 6-7 that she bothered to get the beginner's training to have a proper foundation.
I'm sure Angel and Drusilla would have agreed to a time-out while Willow went to Hogwarts.
 

NeonSlayer

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I'm sure Angel and Drusilla would have agreed to a time-out while Willow went to Hogwarts.
And after that one spell? Willow had plenty of time to take a step back and do things the right way. Giles warned her. Oz warned her. Tara warned her. Buffy warned her. Xander warned her.

At 17-18 Willow didn't need to try to contact the spirit world or try to learn transmogrification or look at spells that require body parts. She shouldn't have delusting spells or My Will Be Done spells or curses to cause eternal suffering.

I get the allure of it. IRL doing spells doesn't give you the powers of a goddess or Sabrina the Teenage Witch or Charmed character. The sky wasn't even the limit. She was limitless.
 

FaithLehane16

"Five by Five."
Joined
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Willow didn't seem to know the difference between "practicing magic" and toying with the forces of darkness. It's like someone learning about swimming and instead of going to a guppy pool lesson with floaties on at the YMCA she jumps into a shark infested part of the Pacific Ocean thinking she's not going to drown or get eaten alive.

Willow went straight for the advanced stuff and it wasn't until the summer between 6-7 that she bothered to get the beginner's training to have a proper foundation. You should attend driver's ed before speeding a racecar at Daytona.
Then explain to me why the Scoobies were on her case in Season 6, rather than in Season 3.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
And after that one spell? Willow had plenty of time to take a step back and do things the right way. Giles warned her. Oz warned her. Tara warned her. Buffy warned her. Xander warned her.
Well, like Giles says, Willow opens a door that she isn't able to close. Willow does a lot of stupid stuff, but a Willow that is willing to do stupid stuff is more helpful to the group than a Joe Sensible would have been.

You also leave out that Willow does actually seem to spend a lot of time on her craft. She studied Jenny's notes prior to finding the floppy disk, which is while she is able to cast it, while Giles can't, she makes potions that turn to soup, she practices with Amy and Michael, she joins a Wicca group, which doesn't really work out, etc.
 

NeonSlayer

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Then explain to me why the Scoobies were on her case in Season 6, rather than in Season 3.
Because they still trusted s3 Willow to learn from her mistakes. They thought she had a line in the sand that she wouldn't cross. But they realized by s6 there was nothing Willow wouldn't do.

Stab a deer to death. Transport a club full of people into an alternate dimension. Erase the memories of her girlfriend& friends. Absorb all the ancient magics from restricted tomes. Turn humans into animals. Raise the dead.
 

NeonSlayer

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Well, like Giles says, Willow opens a door that she isn't able to close. Willow does a lot of stupid stuff, but a Willow that is willing to do stupid stuff is more helpful to the group than a Joe Sensible would have been.

You also leave out that Willow does actually seem to spend a lot of time on her craft. She studied Jenny's notes prior to finding the floppy disk, which is while she is able to cast it, while Giles can't, she makes potions that turn to soup, she practices with Amy and Michael, she joins a Wicca group, which doesn't really work out, etc.
Willow was definitely an eager pupil who didn't need to be pushed to learn. Faith was the one ditching her training. But Willow refused to read the textbook in order. Instead of starting with page 1 she flipped ahead to page 560. If she was a gymnast she would be advised to start with learning how to walk on a balance beam & do a backflip meanwhile she's trying to do a Thomas Salto even though it's banned from competitions because of how difficult & dangerous it is. But knowing she could master that move would be a lot more satisfying & impressive, downside being land wrong you break your neck and end up a quadriplegic.

Jenny & Tara both came from a long line of magic users. It was hereditary. They were raised in the Craft. They weren't as powerful as Willow but they were far from beginners. They had the foundation.

Yeah, Willow joined a Wicca group. Hoping they'd be learning how to gain power and push each other to do complicated spells. She wanted to conjure and invoke. Those girls were Wanna Blessed Bes but Willow wasn't a real pagan either. She was a sorcerer. She was more aligned with Ethan Rayne than someone who follows witchcraft as a religion & spirituality.

It is good to have extreme power on your side but no one told Willow she had to become that or to keep increasing it. It's like with Cordelia on AtS. The visions were helpful but no one told her to die to keep them or jack herself up with unknown DNA to keep having visions. Neither joined the group with powers but both thought they'd be useless without them. I give Willow props for attempting to see if she could still help as Willow instead of Witch Girl and eventually acknowledging she was in over her head. Cordelia never looked back and never saw herself as misguided.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
It is good to have extreme power on your side but no one told Willow she had to become that or to keep increasing it.
In "Shadow," Buffy wants Willow to heal Joyce's tumour, but Tara talks her out of it. In "The Gift," Buffy tells Willow to use her newfound (and obviously dangerous) powers to take on Glory again, calling her her big gun. Prior to "Bargaining," Xander and the other Scoobies leave Willow in charge. In "Older and Far Away," Anya tries to bully Willow into undoing Halfrek's spell. In "Beneath You," Giles sends Willow back to protect the Hellmouth, even though she does not trust herself. In "Get It Done," Buffy pressures Willow to use the spell to open the portal, causing Willow to momentarily loose control.
 
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